SR540Beaver

I guess we are getting a bargain too. Our SE made around $143,000 in 2004 and we have 30,000 registered youth. That works out to $4.76 per youth. I will note that our current SE came to us in 2004 and the guy before him was making $10 to $12,000 more per year.

Ahem, I'm no attorney, but I did sleep at a Holiday....what...ohhhhhh.....nevermind.

You won't get any disagreement from me concerning price. But opening up the official "uniform" uniform would result in not so "uniform" uniforms. There are a good number of folks on this forum who would immediately begin to fudge the cut, the material, the color, etc. and call it "approved". The uniform would quickly become non-uniform. Of course, once a kid hits 14 they can join venturing and design their own Crew uniform. Well, it wouldn't replace the uniform you wear patches on, but still it would be a custom uniform.

A good SE is worth their weight in gold. A bad SE isn't worth their weight in garbage. Depends on the job they do. I second Trev's motion on not confronting the poor schlub who is doing your FOS presentation.

Hmmmm, the last time I went in the local Scout Shop, they had official "uniform" uniforms hanging on the rack in every size imaginable. They had long sleeve and short sleeve shirts, long pants and shorts and even a pair that can be converted to either. Why reinvent the wheel?

YEAH RIGHT! You are probably one of those lunatics who thinks professional wrestling isn't real either.

Trev: "How likely are you to be in a situation where the device would save lives?" Let's keep in mind that the castaways on Gilligan's Island were only going on a 3 hour cruise! Be prepared! Gern, are you related to the Professor?

Beavah: "I've never known a youth of any age to be deliberately cruel as you suggest. Quite the opposite, eh? Most kids are generous, kind souls." Well, I'd have to agree with you that 99.9% of the time 99.9% of youth are indeed generous, kind souls. It is that .1% that can result in devastating cruelty between youths. With all due respect, if you have NEVER known a youth of any age to be deliberatley cruel, then you had to have lived a very sheltered life as a youth and/or you have not spent much time actually dealing with teenaged boys. As evidenced by those of us who have related personal experiences, it happens......even in the best of circumstances. It is our job to head it off at the pass and to deal with it when it does get past us.

Beavah, No, it was a great program. A program, whether it is church, school, sports or scouts can highly influence kids, but it can not ensure good behavior at all times by individuals with free will. The kids I saw do these mean pranks were good kids in a great program who all grew up to be fine upstanding, contributing members of society as well as good husbands and fathers. The problem at the time was they were kids at an age where regardless of your upbringing, you are jockeying for position among your peers. The cruelest age range are those kids in junior high around 12 to 14. Kids who were the best of friends on the elementary playground often find themselves as polar opposites a year or two into junior high. It subsides to some degree in high school, but can still exist. Every kid is at a different stage of physical, emotional and spiritual maturity and it changes back and forth constantly. This week, month or year a kid might do something good or bad that he wouldn't have done last week, last month or last year or next week, next month or next year. Heck, it can change on an hourly basis. What can any program do about it? Have caring adults who have been around the block a time or two provide a consistent structure and example. As it has happened thru the ages, it will slowly have a lasting influence as the kids mature and move closer and closer to adulthood. Until then, they will occasionally make bad choices and even do malicious pranks alongside the friendly pranks they pull. Our responsibility during that growing phase is to set the limits and expectations. If that means screening pranks to make sure fun is had by all instead of some kid being humiliated for the enjoyment of another, I'm cool with that. I'd rather everyone have a good laugh than one kid with deeply hurt feelings and another kid getting sent home.

Symptoms of a bad program? Not really. The pranks I listed happened at church camp of all places by good kids who came from good homes and were extremely active in the youth group. We had the best show in town and attracted kids from every school on our side of town. The problem was they were kids growing towards adulthood and sometimes let temptation exceed there sense of right and wrong. Trust me, they knew what they were doing was wrong since they always had a lookout to make sure an adult wasn't approaching. In each instance, the target was one of the kids who was not part of the in-crowd or popular. In other words, the weak and vulnerable were targeted by the cool or popular kids. Did these kids prank each other? No. They pranked the dorks, geeks, fatties, etc. They were just boys being boys even though they were Christians at church camp and got lots of laughs out of it. Yes, they got in trouble.....after the fact. Boys are boys. They do know right from wrong. That does not always ensure that they will make wise or ethical choices. I know that there are some here who thinks the old Beav is some sort of cop, sitting around with a sour look on his face and dying for a chance to bust a kid and make his scouting experience miserable. Not true by a long shot. Beav loves to laugh, has a wicked sense of humor and loves a good joke. He also is pretty darn lenient with the boys. I'm all for a good prank that can be pulled in the light of day. What I am against is kids getting caught up in the moment and trying to one up each other and taking a mile instead of an inch. You fill a bucket one drop at a time. We as leaders are here primarily to teach boys leadership and how to make ethical choices in an outdoor setting......hopefully while having fun at the game with a purpose. We are also here for safety concerns. The one "fix" I could see to my old church youth program would have been that all pranks had to pass the youth minister's sniff test. Same in scouting. Back in November, we had a new scout snipe hunt sponsored by senior leadership. Actually, just about the whole troop joined in as well as our visiting Venturing Crew. The SM was told about the hunt and he pulled the senior leadership to the side and laid out the ground rules to insure that it would be a fun and memorable event for everyone involved. It was. I think we all actually agree on the topic to a degree. I know very few people without a sense of humor or who don't like to laugh....even at themselves. It is the degree and the intent of the prank being pulled that is in question. Even older teens sometimes let their passions run wild and make bad choices and prank people for the wrong reason or use poor judgement in who their target is. Sometimes it is intentional and sometimes it isn't. Trust is earned in fire skills, map and compass, shelter choice, etc. It is no different with pranks. It should always be done by the boys with a watchful eye from the adults entrusted with the boys safety. So to all you scouters out there, go for it if you want to reverse everything in my tent while I'm away from camp. I'll get a kick out of it too and probably get you back. Soak my sleeping bag on a winter night and you might get a split lip. My hide is only so thick.

I guess everyone else is right about pranks turning kids into friends, thickening their skin and turning them into men. Here are a few of the real pranks I remember from summer camp. Feeding a guy some chocolate without revealing it was really Ex-Lax. Everyone got a kick out of him laying naked from the waist down under a sheet so he could run to the bathroom. What a hoot! A day or two later the same kids emptied a can of bug spray into the Ex-Lax'ed kid's pillow case to see if he'd notice the smell. It was funny knowing he couldn't use his pillow the rest of the week. Then there was the kid who got jumped taking a nap and had Nair rubbed all over his body by a bunch of guys. Shaving cream fights were fairly common. No one told him it was Nair instead of shaving cream. What a scream it was when he went to shower it off and his body hair came off! I recall the look on another kids face when he found out a couple of days later that one of the guys peed in his shampoo bottle. Yep, those were the days. Fun was had by all.....well, most everyone.

Its Me, You were at a Troop meeting.....not a Den meeting. The purpose of each is totally different because they are totally different audiences. Try firing up a song session during a troop meeting and see how well it goes over. You'll most likely be singing a solo. Boy Scouts don't do arts and crafts. They learn skills and make plans for menus, duty rosters and activities for the coming outing. Do Boy Scouts have fun? Sure they do, just not like Cub Scouts.

svendzoid, I understand your concern and I'd be unhappy if my council decided to sell one of our proerties too. However, I won't fight it if and when the day comes. Everyone has property that has sentimental value to them regardless of whether it is a camp, school, church or home. The city for whatever reasons determined that my old high school had outlived its usefullness after only 53 years. They built a new school on the back of the property, moved in after Christmas break and are in the process of demolishing the old building. The church that I attended the first 30 years of my life just shut down on December 31st, sold their property and started a storefront church miles away under a new name. Their membership had declined to a point that they couldn't afford to pay utilities. The building will be demolished for new commercial construction. The church summer camp I attended as a youth and have many fond memories of is still going strong. But the open air tabernacle where worship services were held for decades was recently torn down and a new indoor, air conditioned, cushioned seat worship center has been opened. These are all changes that I personally don't like as each instance holds many memories or good times, friends, girlfriends, etc. Time marches on. I looked back at last years calendar and our troop utilized scout camps two times. Once was Webelos Woods and the other was summer camp and that was at an out of council scout camp. I understand your sentimental attachment to your council camp, but losing it should have an almost nil effect on being able to deliver scouting to the youth of your council. Keeping it open and continuing to sink money you don't have into it may very well threaten the existence of your council which would have a serious effect on the youth. Good luck!

Be prepared......that includes knowing the potential dangers and how to avoid them as best you can. One man's fear is another man's preparation.

I'm part of that rare breedof scouter who has not read a biography of Baden-Powell yet. I'm just curious how he utilized pranks as part of the scouting program to thicken the hides of the younger boys and turn them into manly men instead of nancy-boys?

No offense intended Gern, but even as much as I enjoy solitude, I find it foolish for people to tempt fate by going into the wilderness alone. Even the most seasoned veteran can get himself in a jam. We all remember the experienced lone hiker who had to amputate his own arm in order to self rescue. He was darned lucky to be able to reach a knife to sever the skin, fat, muscle and tendons and also a rock to crush the bone to seperate it. He was also lucky to not bleed to death. On one hand, I feel badly for him that he had to lose an arm and had to actually cut it off himself. On the other hand, I don't feel sorry for him at all for knowingly doing something so risky. While the individual person might be willing to take that risk, there are loved ones back home who will be affected by the loss. Setting off a PLB after 30 minutes or so of not being able to roll the boulder off of his arm might have saved his arm. For those who insist on going into the wilderness alone, a PLB is a smart choice to avoid the pitfalls of natural selection. Being a type 1 diabetic and heading into the Pecos Wilderness to backpack with a crew this summer has had me looking at renting a sat phone or looking into PLB's. I believe they have their place. Everyone needs to be aware that there are rules for their use. You will pay stiff penalties if you set off your beacon when self rescue is deemed possible. It is a last resort. You don't set one off when you lock your keys in your vehicle at the trailhead and a storm is coming. Had the guys who died and disappeared on Mt. Hood a couple of months ago had a PLB, at least their bodies could have been recovered if not their lives saved since SAR can pinpoint their location.

Beavah, No imagination running wild here. Back in 1977 when I was in college and AntelopeDud was probably a wee lad in grade school, we had 3 murders at a Girl Scout camp here in Oklahoma. It was three girls aged 8, 9 and 10 who were all in the same tent. The next closest tent was 75 feet away and the counselors tent was about 100 yards away. They were brutally murdered and at least one was raped. A Native American by the name of Gene Leroy Hart was tried and found not guilty of the crime. No one was ever convicted. It is one of those events that people around here remember where they were when they first heard of it. I'd prefer not to go into details. You can read about it here: http://www.signatureprofilingassociates.com/girlscoutmurders.htm

I will add that we actually had to restrict the number of scouts in a tent in one troop. We had some boys who got the cabin style family tents and ended up with 6 boys in the tent. It was a disaster. They would end up going in there during the day and play wrestling games and the whole tent was shaking like two rhinos fighting under a blanket. They started grabbing each others gear and tossing it around and losing it and dropping the tent windows while other guys were changing clothes. They also stayed up late into the night while others wanted to sleep. People were starting to get angry with each other. After that experiece, our preference was two to a tent and absolutely no more than three.

OK, I'm going to admit to being lazy on this one. I know we have discussed it in the past, but I don't want to try digging for the old thread(s). This past weekend the troop AntelopeDud and I serve had a campout. Tents were set up. The senior leadership uses an adult tent (larger) while the rest of the boys use Eureka Timberlines. We pack 3 boys per tent or 2 boys per tent depending on how the numbers work out in the patrol. We never have a single boy in a tent. This includes the senior leadership which consists of our SPL and 2 ASPL's. The SPL and one of the ASPL's would not be arriving until Saturday morning. The question came up about what to do with the single ASPL and should we pull an older boy from one of the patrols to tent with him. The SM didn't want to make an exception and allow the ASPL to tent alone because it would set a precedent where other boys might start asking to do it because he was able to. They ended up pulling the older boy out of a patrol to tent with him. Off to the side, I mentioned to my Dud bud that it is OK to allow boys to tent alone. He said he didn't think so and that it was a YP issue. I challenged him to show me a BSA rule that requires more than 1 scout per tent. I based this on the previous 2 troops I've been affiliated with. Those troops didn't have the resources to supply tents like our current troop does. Scouts and adults were responsible for providing their own shelter. Boys could buddy up if they wanted to, but were not required too. Most had their own tent and slept alone. I also based it on searching the G2SS and finding nothing there about tent buddies. Single tenting isn't practical in our troop as we can have 45 to 50 on a trip and there simply isn't enough room to carry that many tents even with the 2 trailers we use. I remember the arguments others had in old threads for doubling up in tents and most had to do with safety issues. Billy might get sick in the middle of the night and his buddy will be able to help. In fact, if I recall correctly, our old friend Bob White laid claim that the buddy system extended to tenting. So, the question is, is there anywhere in BSA rules and regulations that require at least two boys per tent? I personally don't think so, but would be happy to admit to being wrong if I am. I think it is a troop policy due to us providing tents and making the most of it as well as safety issues. What say you? BTW, this didn't cause any kind of problem within the troop or between the Dud and me. I just thought it might be beneficial to hash it out again.

If they are cramming NLE, SM Specific and IOLS into a single weekend, major corners are being cut somewhere. The material can not be covered in that time frame. I know that back when EagleDad (Barry) was teaching SM specific, he did the first half on Friday night and the second half on Saturday morning. Food was provided at both sessions. It broke it up so they were not sitting so long and didn't end up killing a whole weekend day. I almost signed up for his course even though it was in a different district. By the time I sat thru the all day course in my district, I wish I had gone to Barry's. I just don't see how you can do it ALL in one weekend and do justice to each course.

One whole year? No. I remember the "first" troop we were associated with. That was their approach. We were allowed to register, but were literally told to sit back and quietly observe. We observed for less than 6 months and every new scout that had joined left for a different troop. If adults are sitting in trailers and boys are exploding cans in the fire, something needs to be said the first time you see it happen. I'll agree that you don't come charging in sight unseen and make accusations based on hearsay. But if you do indeed see it happen, you'd be crazy to just sit by and allow it to continue.....no matter how long you have been with the troop. Safety first, and making things explode in the fire is never safe. It might be "fun", but it isn't safe.

I'm just curious, do "Wood Badge types" fly black helicopters?

BrentAllen: "At first, I was going to ask why you couldn't come up with your own prank to pull on your idol, Charlie. But then I thought of the old saying, "Don't dish it out if you can't take it." It's pretty obvious you couldn't take it." "Some of us are born with a thick skin, others develop it. Some of us are born with a sense of humor, others develop it. Some aren't, and never do, and suffer because of it. They often have an imaginary neon bullseye painted on their back." Without verbal inflections, it is sometimes hard to tell how a person intends their written comments to sound. OGE certainly took these comments far better than I would have if they were pointed at me. I found them very unscoutlike. I was one of those shy introverted kids growing up who endured the occasional bullying and pranks. It wasn't pleasant and it leaves a very definite mark in your memory thru the rest of your life. I've got a great sense of humor, but I have the intelligence to discern those boys who can take a good ribbing and those who can't. I'm the adult in the situation and I won't stand by or tolerate the jokesters making some poor kid the butt of hteir joke. If they want to pull stuff on one another, fine, but don't pick the weakest target you can find. Brent, it sounds like your solution to being pranked or picked on is to one up the prankster. If he pulls a knife on you, pull a gun on him. Is that really a lesson we want to teach boys and is it in keeping with the Oath and Law? If I misinterpreted your words to OGE, I apologize......but they didn't sound very helpful, friendly, courteous or kind.

Or Hops! How silly of me to ignore the youth vote! Now I have to prepare my platform. Air conditioned and heated tents. All scout cookware must be teflon coated for easy cleanup. All campsites must have electrical hookups for the microwaves and DVD payers. Hmmmmm.....what else?

On a serious note, I agree with Eamonn concerning the need for some changes and finding a person of vision. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know there are those who think I'm one of the "enforcers" and might be shocked that I would welcome change. No, I just believe in delivering the program as designed. The program belongs to the BSA and it is not mine to change. I can either accept to work within the confines of the program or not. But I won't modify it because I think I know better than they do. So, let the changes rip and I'll deliver that program with the same enthusiasm as I do with this program. Hmmmmmm, running mates. Perhaps Eamonn with his sexy knees, or Packsaddle, or......so many possibilities.