SR540Beaver

Lisa, BLESS YOU!!! You said something that I'd like to encourage you to explore. The Webelos/Troop relationship. I am the lead ASM for new scouts in our unit. Last year we had 24 new scouts. Most crossed over in the spring, but we had some straglers as late as October. We are expecting close to the same number this year. Our desire is that the Packs have their B&G in February and cross their Webelos over at that time. We fire up our new scout program around the first of March and get the boys into the whole patrol and troop groove with monthly outing leading up to summer camp in June. Our problem is that some of the Packs that are going to crossover to us are going to wait until March, April and May. That puts us in a bind program wise having to back up and cover skills and requirements over and over each month. We can do it, it would just be beneficial to do it as a whole group instead of onesies and twosies. We do recruit and have relationships with several Packs. We want to expand our influence on them next year. We want to strengthen our relationship and work to convince them of several things. First, Webelos is an 18 month program, not a 24 month program. Work on the majority of pins the first year and start getting them outdoors MORE in the last 6 months when they are maturing, getting bored and ready to move to Boy Scouts. Second, like I said above, get the Webelos out camping as a den some. Third, February is the birthday of Cub Scouting, do your B&G and crossover then....not in May. We want them to understand the value of crossing boys in February so they can become familiar with the troop and its operations. Boys who cross "on time" are more likley to attend summer camp than boys who cross right before and are not comfortable with the idea of spending a week away from home with a bunch of older kids they have not gotten to know yet. We want them to understand that boys who go to summer camp are more likely to reach 1st Class. We want them to understand that boys who reach 1st Class within their 1st year are more likely to remain in scouting longer. While we are very active in trying to maintain our relationship with the Packs and find ways to improve it, one of the things that has come up in conversations is this question. Why doesn't the district do more to facilitate the Webelos/Boy Scout relationship? Why are they not pushing more camping for Webelos? Why are they not encouraging February crossovers? The district needs someone who will champion that and bridge that gap and get Packs and Troops moving towards the common goal of registering and retaining scouts. Give that some thought. It would be a valuable service that would impact many lives in the positive.

emb021, Well of course! A pointed hat.

kudu, I get that you love scouting but hate the current BSA program. I'm sure everyone here gets that. Not everyone here was a Boy Scout or Scouter in the late 60's. The program they know and love is the program as it exists today. I appreciate that you are the lone voice shouting from the wilderness. Please appreciate that many of us see value in older elements of the program, but feel an obligation to deliver the program as it is designed today. I don't mean to offend you, be rude or discourage you, but you are not going to change the BSA back to what you remember and love. That was then and this is now. I honestly understand your conviction and can relate. I've been a Baptist all my life. Growing up, we usually sang 3 or 4 stanzas of at least 3 hymns every worship service in the sanctuary. We actually picked up a hymnal to read the words from. Pages with music notation on them. The hymns were more than songs, they were scripture in song form. They told a story or offered hope. The services were very reverant. People Amen'ed when they agreed with something the Pastor said. Most churches had a Pastor, Minister of Music and perhaps a Youth Minister. In this day and age, I can't find a Baptist church like I or my parents or grandparents before me grew up in. There are no more hymnals to sing from and seldom a hymn to sing. The words of a repetitive "praise chorus" is projected onto 3 or 4 mega screens around the "worship center". A rock style band with guitars and drums beats out a deafening tune while the "praise leader" leads the singing. He most likely is dressed casually instead of in a suit like the old Minister of Music was. Instead of Amen's, everyone claps like they were at a concert. People bring their cups of Starbuck's coffee into the sanctuary....excuse me, the worship center to drink while they read the scripture passage from the big screens. No need to actually carry a Bible anymore. I think you get the picture. Church ain't what it used to be.....but it continues to draw in new generations that need it. Right or wrong, the trappings have changed with the times while the core message has remained. Me personally, I'd love to find a church like the one I grew up in. To me, THAT is church, not this rock concert, circus atmosphere. But try as I might, I can't find one like I grew up in. I can either worship in the churches as they are today or start my own and hope that I can draw a crowd. What I don't think will be productive is to stand in the hallways outside the worship center and tell everyone walking thru the door that what is going on inside is wrong and not church. They will beg to differ with me.

E, I was sorely disappointed after getting my 3rd bead and finding out I wasn't in an elite insider clique who had control of the council and/or national organization. I was going to go for a 4th bead as I was sure it would get me on the A list. Sadly, your post has shown me that the 4th bead will do no more for me than the 3rd did. Drat! I'll just continue to serve my unit I guess. I had such high hopes.

I was going to nominate him for top muckity muck.

Wow, rather cranky aren't we? We had our annual Wood Badge reunion this past Saturday. You'd be surprised how many 2, 3 and 4 bead "enforcers" had on their Switchbacks just like me.

Limiting staff development to 90 days out is a mistake in my opinion. Last fall we started at 180 days and it took every bit of it to put on the great course we did. And that was with 60% returning staff. I understand they don't want it to be a hardship for staffers. I think quality will suffer by cutting development down so far. Either those who agree to staff can make the meetings or not and decide accordingly whether or not to staff this go around. If they choose not to, that opens the door for a new staffer. I will say, the CD was very understanding with those staff members who had trips to Philmont and/or vacation time already scheduled when a devolpment meeting was scheduled. There are exceptions allowed for pre 21st Century staffers even after the cutoff date. One of the other changes is not having staff wear uniforms stripped of insignia. Again, I think this is a hardship case. They didn't want to make people take them off and sew them back on or buy additional shirts. On the staff I served last fall, we discussed it and made a joint decision to wear stripped uniforms for our course.

moxie, I became a Webelos in 1967 when it became the "official" rank following Bear. 66/67 was when Lion was discontinued. I do have a Lion book at home that was bought in anticipation of being a Lion. While I have my qualms about a kindergarten program in general, I wish they would have come up with a new critter instead of recycling an old one. How about panther, cougar or leopard?

I agree with OGE. While I appreciate that the BSA developed a co-ed program, I would like to see the programs remain exclusive in their nature. Scouting is scouting and venturing is venturing. If a boy wants to be double registered in scouts and venturing, fine....but what he does in one should have no bearing in the other. Kind of like playing baseball in the spring and football in the fall. They are both sports, but different teams with different coaches and rules. I think the concept behind Venturing is sound, but the execution is poor. We had our annual Wood Badge reunion banquet this past weekend and the SE spoke about the future plans of the council. He discussed the efforts being put in on behalf of all the program elements. But even with all that has been done to date, Venturing showe up on the charts as negligible. It just does not have critical mass. I think part of that is due to trying to reinvent the wheel and having to much involvement with scouting. Doing even further involvement with things such as OA is a step in the wrong direction. I'm fine if they develop their own honor society, just don't open up OA.

Have you ever noticed how "many", (not all, but many) teenage boys stare at the ground and mumble when you attempt to engage them? They simply don't like being the center of attention. That doesn't mean they don't like achieving things and/or feel proud of their accomplishments. They just don't like being put on display.

Oh My Gosh! KoreaScouter is still alive and kicking!!! It is good to see you again.

This past Saturday evening was the council's annual WB reunion banquet. A couple of interesting things happened. The upcoming WB courses were being promoted and guess what was advocated? Enlisting them at 18 when they age out and sign up as adult leaders to give them a leg up from the get go. The other interesting thing is that they announced the staff for the upcoming courses and a friend of mine was announced as a new staff member. He is an old WB'er who thought he would never get a chance at staffing since the date had passed. He had been throwing his hat inthe ring for the last several years and was never selected. How they pulled it off and why they waited until now is beyond me. I'm just glad he is going to get to do it because he is an excellent scouter and will do a great job. So, two things. Some councils are actively pursuing scouters as young as 18 as participants and old WB'ers are still being picked as new staff.

"Comfortably cool". That is what I aim for with my air conditioner, shorts and tank top during August. I agree with what LongHaul said. Different strokes for different folks. There are some people who are absolutely thrilled to spend a month bushwhacking a trail for a month with a tarp, a knife and maybe a compass. Then there are those who don't. Camping skills and trips do not need to be extreme unless that is what attracts you individually. Back to winter camping. Here in Oklahoma, we don't get a lot of snow. We do get a fair amount of sleet and ice. Our cold weather camping mostly consists of bearing the cold winds without the benefit of building snow shelters, skiing, snoeshoeing, etc. I can see how cold weather camping can be fun if you have the white stuff that goes with it. Otherwise, it is just an exercise in staying "comfortably cool" and little else.

gern, It follows the Oath and Law at our meetings, which come right after the Pledge.

I vote with my buddy Eamonn. We camp in tents every month of the year. Some folks think that because we are in Oklahoma that they weather is like Palm Springs year around. Let me assure you, while it isn't Ely, MN, it does get cold here. I'm not sure why Chicago gets noted as the windy city. Whoever nicknamed Chicago that has never spent a day in Oklahoma. When it is 103 degrees in August and the wind is blowing at 30 MPH, you can feel yourself turing into a mummy. When it is 15 degrees in January and the wind is blowing at 30 MPH, you can feel yourself turning into a freeze dried backpacking meal. BTW, the wind is usually blowing at 30 MPH in Oklahoma. I have all of the proper cold weather gear. I still don't like it. I do it because the troop does it and I support the program. Would I EVER choose to cold weather camp as a personal recreational activity. Not on your life. I put it right up there with camping in 100 degree heat in August. I do that too. I also wouldn't do that for a personal recreational activity. Recreation to me is something I do that I find enjoyable. Cold and hot weather camping don't make the cut. I do love spring and fall camping though. I'm geared for all weather camping out of sheer necessity. We cancelled our January campout to Kansas. Not because the nightly lows were going to be in the low teens and the daily highs in the low 20's, but because momma nature dumped several inches of sleet and ice on the road between here and there. I thought the SM was going to cry when we didn't get to go. I sure enjoyed my recliner and fireplace that weekend.

Michelle, We are planning a trip to the Pecos Wilderness this summer and I was doing a Google search on Philmont Trail Food. I came across this site that has a lot of PDF's relating to Philmont. You might find some useful information there. http://www.mcchighadventure.org/philmont/

Let me throw another wrinkle into the question. Aside from age, rank and possibly physical size/ability, does anyone exclude participation based on things like smart mouths, hyperactivity, bad attitudes or low attendance? Is the trip announced and available to everyone who meets the age, size, rank criteria or does the trip leader have subjective veto power over individual "problem" scouts? I guess a second wrinkle would be if anyone does high adventure by invitation only?

jr56, I have to disagree with you to some degree on the "good old boys club". That used to be a problem with the old course and often the participants had to be deemed worthy of being invited to attend. The CD of the 21st Century WB has to jump thru hoops on staffing. Are there return staffers? Sure there is, it only makes sense. But the staff must contain at least 30% new staff. A lot of pressure is put on the CD to be as diverse as possible in the make up of the staff. The more minority members, women and Cub leaders the better. Our support staff who worked the kitchen is made up of almost entirely former CD's. That night give the appearance of a "good old boys club", but they are not the staff doing the presentations to the participants. We use them as a resource for the CD and staff. As a new Troop guide on our last course, I had some questions about one of my patrol member's ticket items. Our CD who by the way was a lady had more than enough to say grace over. Instead, I went to the former CD of MY WB course to get his input and assistance. Appearances can be deceiving. Many measues have been put in place to make WB inclusive rahter than exclusive and to keep bringing new blood into the staff process. While I don't think it is needed, I'd have no problem with a 21 year old age limit. I don't know that I'd go with the 2 year tenure though. Many scouters drop out when their kids Eagle and drop. If a boy takes 4 years to make Eagle and his parent waited a year after the boy joined to register, you might have him just long enough to earn beads. Of course, that is a rather pointed scenario. Our CD had us heavily recruit Cub leaders to get WB principles into units earlier and try to retain WB trained people longer. If there was a tenure limit, I'd make it 1 year.

Just out of curiousity, does your troop have some sort of qualifications that must be met to participate in a high adventure outing? I know that the BSA's High Adventure Bases have their own set of qualifications for participants. My question is does your troop have qualifications above and beyond BSA's or their own set for troop planned outings that are not to one of the BSA bases? I know it is an open ended question and some will inevitably ask for more details. There are no more details. I just want to know how different troops determine who can and can't go on high adventure trips. Thanks!

Pack, Smart thinking, but Little Mermaid is so.....yesterday. Maybe you could get some Bratz linens for camp. OR You could start teaching the Collections MB and show the boys your Barbie collection!

kraut-60, Please refrain from disrespecting my beloved Spongebob! A scout is friendly, courteous and kind. Back when my son was still into cartoons, Spongebob was one of our most fun shared daily experiences. My 6 year old nephew is now a huge fan and we have that in common. He even got me a Spongebob cup for Christmas and I promised him I would start taking it on the troop's monthly outings.

"Also, a sleeping bag's insulation works both ways, keeping the heat in the tent from reaching your body." I have to disagree with this statement. The insulation in the bag traps the warmth coming from your body and creates a cocoon of warm air around you. It is insulating against the cold air outside the bag. Try climing in a 0 degree bag in 90 degree heat and see how long the bag insulates you from the heat outside your bag. You'll be sweating in about 30 seconds.

Good to hear. We were getting dressed to go to our troop meeting last night when my almost 14 year old son came out and announced that yet another pair of scout pants were getting too small to wear. His next pair (and my next pair) will be switchbacks. A number of adults and boys in the troop have them now and love them. We are backpacking the Pecos Wilderness in New Mexico this summer and I am going to be in the market for a synthetic pant with cargo pockets, integrated belt and zip off legs. Rather than buy something like Campmor's Trekmor pants, I'll probably kill two birds with one stone and just go with the switchbacks.

Venividi: "I hope the referenced comment wasn't preceived as disparaging." Not at all. Good conversation!

Venividi, Good post and I don't disagree with anything you said. I do want to make an observation concerning this comment, "Just my opinion, but if cooking is presented to the scouts as busy work, they will perceive it as busy work and want to avoid it. If cooking is presented as a time of coming toghether to prepare a meal and enjoy each other's company, they see it as that. At the end of an entire week, they will feel good about themselves over what they can accomplish together." In the three troops I've been involved with, the adults functioned as a patrol to set the example for the boy patrols. For us adults, the best part of any outing is the cooking and eating. We joke, we play and we get to know one another. It is a bonding experience. I don't know how many times the boys have complained about how much better we adults eat and how much easier we have it and faster we are like it is some form of magic that they don't possess. We always point out to them that we all pay the same amount as them for patrol food on the outing and they can cook the same things we cook. We use the same exact equipment they do. We also talk to them about the comaraderie we experience working together. They have been taught how to plan menus and cook. Unfortunately, they are teenage boys and THEY see the cooking and cleaning as busy work that takes away from their "fun". Trying to get them to realize that it is a big part of the "fun" seems to be one of the more difficult tasks....even when they have been taught and see it modeled. Eventually, as they get older, hopefully it will click. But for many 11, 12, 13 and 14 year old boys, it is busy work. You know, you can lead a horse to water....... I knew of one troop where the boys got so lazy, they wouldn't even boil water for their Raman noodles. They ate it right out of the package dry. Obviously, there was a lot to work on in that troop beyond just patrol spirit.