SR540Beaver

Bob, Why is it called a "field" uniform if it's intent is for "dress"? Many of the troop websites I've looked at says that the activity uniform (summer) is a troop t-shirt, scout belt, scout pants/shorts and scout socks. That means these troops expect the scouts to wear their scout pants/shorts for outdoor activity. These pants are not as sturdy or servicable as many other outdoor activity gear on the market. They need a more relaxed fit for outdoor activity. They are cut to snug for anyone that does not have sixpack abs. I've seen far too many scouts and scouters who almost look obscene in their shorts who are wearing their "regular" size. My son is slim and we had a heck of a time buying his scout pants. His size fit him like a second skin and the next size up literally fell off of him. BSA needs to address the pants issue. It seems that posts run 90% against and 10% for. They don't have to be BDU's, but an adjustable tab waist, roomier cut, bigger cargo pockets and zip off legs would be a move in the right direction.

Acco, I believe you are right about Lions for a year and then Webelos for a few months. I think it was around 1967 that the Lion rank and book formally disappeared and Webelos replaced it as a formal rank with a book. There were no Webelos 1 and 2's either, just Webelos. I don't recall ever doing any fundraisers back then either.

hops, Yes, we went to war in Desert Storm to kick Iraq out of Kuwait after Iraq invaded them. That was the task at hand and that is what we did. Removing Saddam was not part of the deal. The UN put sanctions on Iraq to keep them from substantially rebuilding their military power and weapons. You say that now it is time for him to leave. The problem that many people are struggling with is the US becoming an agressor nation. We have responded when we have been attacked or one of our allies has been attacked. Think Pearl Harbor, Kuwait, 9/11, etc. In this case, Saddam's freedom to conduct business as he sees fit has been severely limited for the past 12 years. You may not be aware, but we have been dropping bombs on targets inside Iraq each day for the last 12 years to keep his military weak and to keep him from rebuilding his military. The question is, how big of an actual threat is he to US national security? And, who are WE to decide that it is time for him to go? Didn't we kick him out of Kuwait for attacking them? Yet we are about to do the same thing by invading Iraq. This is not a position that the US has taken in the past. We respond, we don't draw first blood. Most Americans including myself will get on board and support the war effort when it comes. It's just that some people want to know what the justification is beyond Saddam being a bad guy. There are many bad world leaders that hate the US. We are not planning a war agaisnt them.

sctldr, I was a Cub in the 60's too. I pretty much remember it the way you do with staying in the same den and working on advancements at your own pace. I remember having two different den mothers. I think that is because one gave it up and another took over. That was back when you had one cap and one neckerchief too. I became a Webelos in 1967. From what I remember, the year I became a Webelos was when they did away with the Lion rank and put out the Webelos book and went with the plaid neckerchief. BTW, WeBeLoS means We'll Be Loyal Scouts. Says so in my 1967 copyright Webelos book. PS I don't think the AOL was automatic, I didn't get it. However, my memory is fuzzy. I quit as a Webelos and didn't go to Boy Scouts. My Webelos den leader creeped me and my brother out. We may have quit early instead of staying thru to the end. I'll have to ask my mommy. (This message has been edited by kwc57)

I think that part of what gets lost in all of this is that many people involved in Cubs have never been involved in Boy Scouts. Many here have been involved in both and know what both offer and see a smooth transition.....because they have been there. But many packs have parents running their program who were never involved in scouting. They have little idea of what the differences are between Cub and Boy and don't know how to approach it. I think the majority of encouraging retention falls on troops. They can relate because they have been there and should be able to guide a pack in how to help with the transition. After all, this is where their future scouts are coming from. Once the seed is planted, someone has to tend the garden and harvest the crop if they want to eat. I agree that the Commissioners need to be involved and so do the troops. Think about it, jow many of us really knew what to expect when we left elementary school and headed off for junior high. In that case, we couldn't quit becasue of fear of the unknown. In scouts, we can.

Some people will be considered role models whether they want to be or not. But when a person flatly says, "I'm not a role model" that is a pretty clear warning that their life style is not to be imitated. If a reporter asks Barkley if he is concerned about kids imitating him, he can say (right or wrong), "look, I'm on record as telling kids not to look up to my lifestyle as a way for them to live". At least he is honest and up front about it. Besides that, most parents play a role in pointing children towards role models. We've had numerous conversations with our 9 year old son as to why Ripkin and McGwire are good guys and someone to admire, while Bonds, Tyson, Rodman, Barkley and Eminem are not. He gets it! All a part of good parenting and guiding your children. The most influential role models in my life were first and foremost my Dad, a particular youth Sunday School teacher and one of my first bosses. I saw them actually live their lives. It was worth a million times what the "image" I saw of an athelete or actor was. Give kids credit, they know the difference. They may be impressed short term by the flash, but they'll stick with the real thing in the long term.

ryon, Look here: http://www.scouter.com/compass/Meeting_Activities/Games/

Eagledad, I read your post with interest. My son is a Webelos 1 right now. At our Pine Car Derby this weekend (2nd place, thank you very much) I struck up a conversation with our Webelos 2 leader and asked him when our pack typically does the crossover to Boy Scouts. I was hoping he'd tell me February or March. He said it is in May when the rest of the dens promote to the next rank. The reasoning for it is that the pack does a family campout in May as part of the rank promotion. My concern goes along with what you said about new scout retention. Throwing a new scout into summer camp without first acclimating to the troop would be disorienting at best in my opinion. I think that the packs that crossover their Webelos 2's early are doing their best to help troops retain new scouts. Any thoughts? BTW, we are in the Last Frontier Council too, Sonner District.

Decide to stay around? If so, glad to have you! The winters are not as rough here in Oklahoma, although we got into single digits 2 nights last week. We have a program ran by a TV station where you can take old coats to dry cleaners in the area and they will clean them and donate them to the needy. Took all of my spare old coats and jackets in back in November.

Boysofmine, If the chipmunks do the same work as the Tigers, don't they then turn right around the following year and repeat everything they did the prior year?

From my councils website: http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/ypt_tour2003.htm Effective January 1, 2003, the Boy Scouts of America local tour permit includes a requirement that at least one adult present during the event or activity must have completed the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) Youth Protection Training. The Boy Scouts of America national tour permit will continue to include the requirement that all registered adults must have completed the Boy Scoutsof America (BSA) Youth Protection Training for participation in a nationally sponsored event/activity. In support of our continued efforts to offer training to as many Scouters as possible, and to support the requirement of having at least one youth protection trained adult, an internet version of youth protection training for leaders is being developed and will also be available for use in February of 2003.

Dan W, You need to understand that the truth you and I know from the Bible is not the same truth the rest of the world knows. There are more of "them" than there are of "us". That does not make them right. They don't claim their truth to spite us, they believe it and they don't believe our truth anymore than we believe theirs.

Hey KS, put me down for several boxes! But you have to pay the postage!

KS, Funny, those German seemed to be on the wrong end of those World Wars. Maybe we don't want their help, they don't seem to know how to win.

Zahnada, What you are describing isn't anything new or an indictment of BSA. The same could be said of church. There are people that are non-church goers that have a bias against those who do. If you ask them what they think of church, they will say things like, "they are a bunch of hypocritical do-gooders, have a bunch of dos and don'ts, etc." Should the church change their focus and message because people outside of it are not involved and really have no idea of what they are talking about? We live in a PC world today that goes beyond just saying we should show tolerance for gays, atheists, etc. and says we should embrace them and change our organizations to include them. No, we shouldn't. We are what we are and that is why our organization exists. I have a former pastor who is now pastoring a different church in our city. His church has been singled out by a gay/lesbian group who pickets outside his church each Sunday because they want him to recognize their group and give them a voice in setting policies in his church. Now, there are gay/lesbian churches in our city that they can join if they want. Do they? No. There agenda is to force those who disagree with their views to embrace their views. They have a place to goi, but that isn't good enough. They want to make every church a gay/lesbian church. Bizarre! You know, if I want to start a book club and end up with 100 members, I'd have a problem if some of them decided we needed to start reviewing comic books instead. If they don't want to review books, fine.....go start a comic book club. If my membership drops, so what. We are a book club, not a comic book club. Frankly, I like Scouts and I like the program. I don't care how other people view it, that's their problem. I think it is a small minority of people that dislike Scouts. When my son went door to door selling popcorn or when we go to a store while he is in uniform, people always smile and treat him special. They never fail to ask him about scouting, congratulate him or tell him how proud they are of him.

Sctmom, Sorry, I have to disagree with you about boys not being taught to put other's needs first. I learned first hand from my own Dad, God rest his wonderful soul. While I may not have appreciated it as a kid, the older I got, the more I realized that my Dad's life was not his own. Everything he did, he did for our family. I remember asking him as a kid if he liked his job. He answered by telling me, "Son, I have to like my job." He didn't have a choice. To put a roof over our heads, food in our tummys, clothes and shoes on our bodies and educations in our brains, he worked like a dog to provide for us. He single handedly built a den, bedroom and bathroom onto our house to expand it to fit four kids. He couldn't afford to have a contractor do it. He did everything he did out of love and a sense of resposibility for his wife and kids. He and my Mom sacrificed daily for us kids and for each other. They both taught us that others always come first. That isn't anything exclusive to girls. It is what any responsible parent will teach their children. There are plenty of girls who are raised as little princesses who think the world owes them everything as their are little princes. It is all in the type of parenting done.

Wow! A badge for a day at the spa! No wonder their enrollment is up. Maybe the BSA should make a badge for PlayStation? I'm sure we could get a lot more boys.

Boy, talk about coincidence! I was just thinking of starting a thread on this same subject. Most of our Webelo 1's earned their Athletic pin back in early October. Our Cub Master informed us at our den meeting last week that he believed we had to get the belt loop as part of the requirements. It was a good catch on his part as all of us missed it. I think perhaps they need to S P E L L it out a little clearer if that many people read the requirements and didn't understand it. We are going to let the boys keep their pins and work on getting the belt loop to make it official.

Sctmom, You know your neighbors better than me, so I may be talking out of turn here. When a kid says, "my parents won't let me" it could mean a variety of things. I know lots of families that are involved in soccer and love it. I know a lot of families who's kids play basketball, baseball and football and would never allow their kid to play a "weenie" sport like soccer. I know other parents who won't let their kids play sports at all because they don't want to spend their time at practice and games or have to help. I can see some people not wanting to get involved in scouts because camping and outdoor stuff is a turn off to them. Or also because they don't want to feel obligated to be personally involved. I know cub scouts is different from boy scouts, but our leadership planned one of our few Webelo campouts around the two major college football teams schedules in order to get maximum participation. There is one weekend in October that both teams didn't have a game, so that was set for our campout. Even then, we only got about 30% participation from the den. I guess what I'm saying is that there are a variety of reasons that "mom and dad said no" that don't necessarily involve politics. Zahnada, Yes the press picks up on the PC special interest groups attacks on private organizations and helps give their cause visibility. I can't count the number of news talk shows that wasted a lot of time on Augusta not allowing women. Eventually these groups may win a victory in making private organizations more PC. Even if they do, the boys wanting to have fun and learn scouting skills and the volunteers who want to teach the kids will remain the same at the grassroots level regardless of the politics involved at the national level. When I go to den and pack meetings, I never hear any discussion about the national, council or district level politics. We are concentrating on the boys and the program. I don't think that will change. Kids could care less about what is being argued in the Supreme Court. They just want to learn how to climb rocks and tie knots.

Scomman, This is already covered in the "Who Needs This" thread.

Zahnada, With all due respect......the sky IS NOT falling!

Youngblood, of course I don't mean I want another 9/11. I meant that we had all the damning evidence we needed with the WTC. Before our country becomes an aggressor nation attacking others, we need to have defensible justification for it. Cold hard facts like we had in 9/11. So far, we keep getting told that Saddam has WMD's......but no verifiable proof. It is a dangerous step for our country to take to start a war based on suspicions. As to your second post, Saddam is not gong to become the next NK. We have a northern and southern fly zone established over his country. We bomb targets every single day and have for the last 12 years. Their are sanctions in place that controls what goes in and out of his country to keep him from having the ability to build and stockpile weapons. He has been unable to rebuild his military. He is contained and under our thumb. We have already prevented him from being the next NK and will continue to do so.

ahhhhh, I get it, we're going to beat up the weakling because we know he can't fight back and be afraid of the stronger guy.....which we actually happen to be much stronger than The point is, NK is a serious threat to us and the world. Saddam has been under our thumb for 12 years and is contained. NK is the greater threat. Our resources nned to be pointed in that direction.

Sctmom, I've been reading the Bible for close to 40 years. I'm familiar with the scriptures you quote. They are all part of God's laws. What is your point?

Rooster, So if God's Word does not call something a sin, are we to fill in the gaps for Him? I disagree with your pedophile example. While the Bible does not mention pedophilia specifically, it would be covered under sins such as adultry and pre-marital sex. Sex outside of a marriage is considered a sin regardless of who it is with according to the Bible. It hits the root, not all of the variations. I'm aware of the difference between a bondservant and a slave. The Bible mentions both. But if you'll look in Exodus and Leviticus, you'll find a number of God given laws concerning slaves. One even concerns what food is permissable to eat for slaves bought by Priests. Since these are the books where God was laying down the law to His people, one would think that He would say that slavery was a sin instead of just giving laws for their treatment. While God does not specifically endorse slavery as a good and desirable thing, He certainly never said it was a sin to enslave a man. God is pretty black and what about what is prohibited and what is permissable. Why would God remain silent on what the world considers an horribly sinful act? I can't accept that God simply forgot. Please don't think I'm being disrespectful or argumentative. This sincerely is a question that has always perplexed me. Mankind finds this practice a sin, yet the Bible is silent except to speak on how to treat a slave. I would think that if God found slavery sinful, He would have said, "thou shalt not enslave men instead of thou shalt not beat the men you enslave".