SR540Beaver

pfann, Ever notice how long it takes for cases to go to trial? Know why? Because the court system is overloaded with cases to hear. If we add more and more recusals and appeals on top of an already over stressed sytem, it will collapse. Instead of treating the symptoms, you treat the root cause. If judges are not involved in activities that could cause recusal or appeal, then the problem is greatly reduced. Is it a big price to pay to be a judge? You bet! Most things that are worthwhile do require sacrifices. Many jobs carry requirements with them. Would you want your Pastor sitting out on his driveway without a shirt, drinking a beer and smoking a cigar? Probably not. But you could make the argument that a system of forgivness is in place and we should let it work. Why should we expect our Pastor's behavior or activites be above reproach or question? Yeah, yeah...I know....someone is going to say that comparing a Pastor's sins to a Judge's noble desire to be in scouting is way off base. It is an illustration to make a point and nothing more. I once had a Pastor who was a great Christian man. He left the pastorate to become a foreign missionary. Before becoming a Christian and a Pastor, he loved to hunt and fish. While hunting and fishing, he loved to chew tobacco. He once told me that if he could have gotten a wad of tobacco the size of his fist in his mouth he would have. He even said that he still missed it to this day. But he knew it was the wrong thing to do in his personal and professional life and he gave it up. Certain jobs require certain sacrifices of a personal nature and that includes judges especially. Judges work for the government and government employees are forbidden by law to descriminate against people because of their race, color, religion, gender, sexual preference, etc. By being a member of a private organization that openly descriminates against certain types of people, a judge potentially puts himself in conflict. Have we taken things to far? Probably. But it is the rules we have currently and what we have to live with. It can be changed eventually.

Oh brother!!! Come on OGE. I'm not trying to compare the BSA to the KKK and you know it. It was an extreme "illustration" of a principle used to make a point. The principle being that a person who holds membership in a private organization who's membership criteria openly descriminates could hold the same bias in his professional life. For judges, that is not a position they should place themselves in. That a judge wants to be a scout leader is a good and noble thing. If he is hearing a case concerning gay rights, the defense has good grounds for an appeal if the judge finds against them. Common sense. Did you watch the short lived show that was on earlier this year about the Supreme Court. One of the Justice's wife got her real estate liscense. She had a big deal cooking and he told her she had to drop it because the buyer was involved in a case he would be hearing. Judges live with conflict issues everyday and have to be on the lookout constantly for possible conflicts out of left field. Good grief, I live in Oklahoma City and was 6 blocks from the Murrah building bombing. McVeigh's case was originally supposed to be heard in Federal Court here in OKC in Judge Wayne Alley's court. The case was moved to CO in order for the trial to be fair and was taken away from Alley because his office was directly across the street from the blast....even though he was not in his office the day it happened. Like it or not (and I don't either), but a judge belonging to a Country Club that does not allow women, or the BSA that does not allow gays or atheists, or even the KKK could be setting himself up for having to recuse himself from cases or having his decisions appealed. It's all part of the fairness built into our judicial system to ensure fair trials.

Rooster, I understand that you may not like what's happening in CA, but just for the sake of argument, let's consider an analogy. You are a black man living in the south. The judge you are going before is a member of a private organization that can set criteria membership called the KKK. How comfortable are you that you will get a fair hearing in his courtroom? A judge is supposed to be fair and impartial and above reproach. When you enter a judges court with the knowledge that he is a member of an organization that openly descriminates against a segment of society that you belong to, you COULD have reason to worry. The BSA sets their member criteria and quite plainly says that they ban homosexuals and atheists specifically. If you are going to court for a case that deals with those two subjects, you have to think that he already has a bias against you.

Much better!!! LOL

I'm all for her being able to participate in the GS as long as she has a parent to supervise her and as long as her special needs are not disruptive to her group. My Webelos son went to a council campout earlier this year and there was a Boy Scout with cerebal palsy sitting in his wheelchair with a basket of beads to give to the boys when they completed the archery range. He couldn't pass them out himself and had another boy with him actually dipping into the beads and passing them out. After looking at her website, I'm still scratching my head over how she can do a rope challenge and be a cheerleader though??? A cheerleader confined to a wheelchair and using a computer voice to communicate?

Gee, I think I started this thread about Judges in California being barred from participating in private organizations like scouting because of conflict in descrimination cases......didn't I?

avowed \A*vowed"\, a. Openly acknowledged or declared; admitted. -- A*vow\"ed*ly, adv. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. It seems that by the definition of avowed, the "don't ask, don't tell" method is at work here. If someone who is gay isn't stating publically their homosexuality (in the closet) and no one knows, then they can be in scouting. The same would go for adulterers, pedophiles, murderers, etc. As long as their "crime" isn't public, no one is the wiser and they can participate. Now, before anyone responds and jumps on me, I'm not advocating DA/DT. I'm just saying that the definition of avowed is someone who openly declares their homosexuality. If they do, the BSA says they are banned. If no one knows and no one tells and the BSA is not aware, they can participate until they admit to being gay. In this case, those who are gay and loud and proud of it and want to be in scouting have cut their own throat. Like Rooster said, if someone went around bragging openly about their infidelity, they would be kicked out too. As long as they keep it to themselves, no one knows any different.

LV: Reading the Consitution in it's entire is one thing. Letting lawyers who are motivated by money to interpet the Consitution and shoe horning it to fit the needs of their masters is a matter altogether different..... KWC: LV, I couldn't agree more! And those who are opposed to religion have elevated this practice to a fine art.

You are right littlebillie, but what does that have to do with condoms being passed out at the WJ? As KS pointed out, Thialand has a big STD problem in their society and because of it, it is no surprise to him that condoms are being offered as a precaution. Whether one is heterosexual or homosexual has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Sorry NJ, I have to vote for KS on this one. You do tend to insert the gay thing into any post you can.

Rooster, Let's agree that it should be a joint decision. I plan on being very active in helping my son choose a troop over the next year. I've already started scoping them out. But you will find that the current train of thought is that the boy should decide.

Rooster, I do think we pretty much agree. No, I don't think you are asking too much. Just don't be surprised when a human stumbles and falls and fails to live up to the Biblical standard. We all do it everyday, regardless of how hard we try not to most of the time. Remember, in God's eyes a sin is a sin is a sin. There is no degree in sin except in what our society decides. Obviously, a murder is worse than telling a white lie to spare someone's feelings. But to God, they are both sins! He treats them no differently. Each seperates us from God equally. That a gay person gives into temptation is no greater sin than the teenager having sex in the backseat of his car in God's view. While we may condemn both, we tend to blame raging hormones in the teenagers case and we tend to discuss abominations in the case of the gay. While both are wrong, we see one as "normal" and the other as "abnormal" and attach a degree of sinfullness to it from a human perspective. God sees both as sin period.

Rooster, If you'll go read the various threads concerning transition from Webelos to Boy Scouts, they all stress that the boy should choose the troop he wants to join. I've even talked with our Cub Master about this and he syas the same thing. From the threads I've read, there are a variety of concerns out there. There are packs that traditionally have fed into troops and the troops expect it to continue and make no effort at rrcruitment. The problem comes when there is a better troop down the street that recruits and welcomes new boys with open arms. Scout Masters get into arguments over another troop stealing "their" boys. Also, some troops camp at least once a month while others may camp quarterly. Some are more action oriented while others are more scholarly. Etc., etc! While I believe that a parent should help an 11 year old boy with the pros and cons of the different troops available, ultimately the decision should belong to the boy. If your son loves a troop he visited and you tell him he has to go to another troop he thouroughly disliked because "you" thought it was better, you run the risk of your son dropping out for lack of interest. Your son may like steak and potatoes and you think it would be better for him to eat broccoli and cauliflower even though it makes him gag. Both will nourish him, but one he will enjoy and eat every meal. The other he will avoid and pick at. What is wrong with letting him pick the steak and potatoes if you know he will eat it and enjoy it and stick with it. A parent should have input about the troop choice, but a boy should decide.

Rooster, Of course single people can abstain. I abstained until I was out of college and got married. I'm assuming from your viewpoints that you did to. But at some point, you and I chose to quit abstaining and got married didn't we? Why? It certainly wasn't in our plans to abstain for the rest of our lives, was it? We were just following the rules. No sex before marriage and no sex with another woman after marriage. We get married for many reasons, but it is the sexual side of marriage that makes it unique to any other partner relationship we can have with another person. The Bible even tells us that we should only abstain from sex inside a marriage for a short period of time to keep things from getting too rocky. You see, while we tout celibacy and abstinance for others, we have chosen a different path for ourselves. My point is that if you think abstinance is such a wonderful and easy thing to do, give it another try for a year or so and see how it goes. It is easy to tell someone else what they must do when you yourself don't have to do it. If you'll recall, the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians, chapter 7 that it was better to not marry so you could better serve God without the burden of a wife and family taking away from your full attention. He then goes on to say that it would be better to marry for those who have trouble exercising self control. God's word recognizes that the God given sex drive is so strong that some people will have great difficulty in exercising self control and abstaining. For those of us who are heterosexual, we have an "easy" outlet....marriage (if you want to call that easy). For those who are homosexual, we tell them that abstinance is their only answer, even as the Word of God recognizes that this is a very difficult choice to live with. As I said, there is no easy answer to homosexuality. I do believe that they are born that way and I do believe that same gender sex is sinful in God's eyes. I know that God creates us with a strong instinctual sex drive and that many many people have done really really stupid stuff to fulfill it.....homosexual, heterosexual, male, female, Christian, non-Christian alike.

Rooster: Parents should seek a troop that most reflects their attitudes. KWC: Scouters keep telling us Webelos that the decision of which troop to join belongs to the boy.

Gee OGE and NJ, HIPPA almost turns this into a "don't ask, don't tell" type of thing. Let's say that BSA does not have a right to know unless the person wants to tell them. Now let's imagine that this HIV positive scout is out on a snipe hunt, gets hurt and several scouts and scouters get infected trying to help him. What is the liability to BSA or the council or the troop when parents of a litigious nature find out that an HIV positive kid is participating in outdoor activities that carry a considerable risk of injury and they didn't know so they could protect their children as they saw fit? While the easy answer is if the BSA didn't know, they can't be held accoutable. But remeber, in today's courts, OJ walked out a free man and gun manufacturers are being held accountable for murders committed by individuals. Given the nature of the BSA program and the outdoor activites, I think we have an obligation to ensure the safety of each and every scout. Don't you have to provide certain medical related documents or release forms before being able to participate in certain BSA outdoor activities. Sorry, I'm still just a Cubs dad, so my Scout knowledge is still limited.

Rooster, I don't pretend to understand homosexuality. It is wrong and unnatural to me. It is beyond my comprehension. However, what I do understand is sexuality. While our religion and society teaches us that homosexuality is perverse and a sin, for a person who is gay, the same feelings and desire you felt for your girlfriends and wife are the same feelings they feel for members of their same sex. Yes, how we "behave" is totally in our control. Our "instinct" is not in our control. The best any of us can do is to control our instincts with our behavior, but we can not change our instincts. Do you think you can train a salmon not to leave the ocean and swim inland and upstream to breed or train a bird not to sit on the eggs in their nest? You can modify their "behavior" by restricting their ability to do what comes "natural" to them. You said that you could have chosen to abstain from sex and not marry and have children. But did you? Why? What if someone told you that what seems natural to you was wrong and that you can't do it? You admitted that it would be lonely......how about miserable, depressing and a constant temptation too? Here is a challenge, decide to abstain from sex for the next year. Tell your wife that you want to concentrate on your relationship with God and just like fasting, you want to abstain from sex in order to focus all of your attention and energies on God. Surely she could undertand and respect that. See how long you can go without the sexual release and intimacy and how long it will take before it begins to affect your marriage and other aspects of your life. I've known a number of gay people and everyone that I've known has one constant wish......that they were not gay. Some I've known actually have abstained and have tried to find other ways to find a way to fill their lives. One I knew was the most talented, dedicated and best Southern Baptist music ministers I've ever known. He abstained and tried his best to live a "normal" life above reproach. He even went so far as to get married. Seems many of us protestants don't like having single ministers! His wife was convinced she could turn him around after getting married. Even though he sought the Lord's help through constant prayer and modified his behavior over his instinct, his homosexuality ended up being his eventual undoing. He was such a dedicated hardworker and so popular with the congregation (who had no idea that he struggled with a homosexual nature) that our pastor became jealous. He was under constant bombbardment from our pastor and some of his cronies who were attempting to "help" him. (I know because I was the Vice-Chairman of the Deacon body at the time.) They drug him off to a radical evangelist's home who's claim to fame was spiritual warfare to have his "demons" of homosexuality cast out of him. Well of course, rather than keeping all of this confidential, it leaked out and he eventually had to leave the church and a 20 year highly successful ministry. Of course, it ended up costing him his marriage too because his wife couldn't convert him and get him to have sex with her (even though she knew his orientation before they married). She persued him for years before he finally gave in and dated and married her. There is no easy answer to the problem of homosexuality. All I can come up with is....walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you criticize them. Hence, my suggestion that for all of those people who think abstinance is the answer......give it a try yourself (for the rest of your life) before you so boldly tell someone else that it is the only answer for them. I think that if the shoe was on the other foot, we might have a little more compassion for those who are born with a "backwards" instinct.

OGE, no it wasn't a snipe hunt. Well, I'm not sure if you meant during the campout or what we did as kids. I went on a snipe hunt as a kid and then helped lead a few myself in my younger days. Now that I am older and wiser, I'd wise my son up real quick before I let someone take him on a snipe hunt. OK OGE, now let's sit back and see how many people ask what a snipe hunt is! LOL

Concerning the capture the flag game played at night. We are part of a Webelos den that was doing a one night Polar Bear patch campout. It is winter and the sun goes fown around 5:30 PM. A couple of representative boys from a Boy Scout troop in another town was nice enough to visit our camp and invite our boys to come over and play with them. It was a moonlit night and everyone had flashlights. The Scouts were taking it pretty easy on the Webelos and had a pretty open area to play in. One of our boys decided to climb to a low limb of a tree and hit his head while hopping down out of the tree. He had about a 1 cm laceration on the back of his head. Fortunately, our den leader is a head ICU nurse and our asst den leader is an EMT. They had him fixed up in under 5 minutes. BTW, they were under the supervision of adult leadership. While I would never disagree with the GSS, a little adventure is good. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'd rather have my son playing capture the flag in the dark with Scouts and adult supervision in a council campground than some of the stunts my buddies and I pulled after dark in our own neighborhood when I was his age. Don't ask, I won't tell.

Littlebillie, I agree with the disclosure also. I think the boy should be admitted to Scouts in whatever limited capacity he could participate. Sine he is fed his meds thru a tube 9 times a day, it would be kind of hard for people to not know about his illness. I would think campouts would be impossible for him to participate in. The others kids and parents DO need to know about him being HIV positive. We went camping a few weeks ago and during a game of capture the flag in the dark, one of our scouts busted the back of his head. While the actual wound was small, it bled alot. What if he had been HIV positive and the scouts and scouters who helped him didn't know? I say let him in, but openly disclose his illness for the safety of the other boys involved.

WHOA Rooster, Number one, about the self fulfilling prophecy thing, I for one won't treat these boys differently because of what I suspect their future to be. They'll get the same treatment from me that each other boy will get. Also, I never said that homosexuallity was not immoral nor did I bring up how the person became gay. Ed was the one who said that they can not be born gay because it would be contradictory to God's image. I was asking if it isn't possible for whatever reason for someone to be born that way seeing as how children are born with all other manner of physical and mental defects? Are they contridictory to God's image as well? Yes, at some point many gay people will tire of the constant battle of trying to be "normal" by society's standards and give into their "nature". Stop and remember when you were a teenager Rooster with all of those raging hormones and how you had to resist the natural urges of your body. If you were like me, hopefully you succeeded in resisting. But I'll be the first to tell you it was extremely hard at times. I also ask you to remember how pleasurable you intimate relationship with your wife has been for you in your adult life. Imagine having to deny that side of your life for the rest of your life. Do you honestly think you would not have many of those same self talks with yourself on whether to suffer thru "doing the right thing" or fulfilling your natural instincts. The attraction and desire you feel for the opposite sex is the same thing a gay person feels for the members of his gender. There are many a single adults who cave to the same temptations too. All I can say is, "there go I, but for the grace of God". While I do consider it immoral myself, I find it hard to sit in judgement of someone who feels the same as me, just different.

Merry Christmas to all from Oklahoma City. We are having our first white Christmas in 17 years. To all who are traveling, be safe and carelful. To all who have much, give something to those who don't. Hug someone extra tight on Christmas and tell them how much you love them and how thankful you are for them. In the midst of all the hustle and bustle and shopping and spending, stop to remember that Jesus is the reason for the season. He is the greatest gift given to mankind. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

Evmori, Let me clarify my meaning. I do believe people are born that way and that it is not just a "lifestyle". My comments meant that anything can be considered a lifestyle. Being a scouter can be considered a lifestyle because for many people it defines much of who they are and how they conduct themselves, but no one was born a scouter. Why can't God have created a person homosexual? Children are born with birth defects. Babies are born mentally retarded. Those are not choices they made later in life. Were they not also created in God's image? Who's image were they created in since they are not "normal"? I'm an insulin dependant diabetic and I can assure you I never made a choice to be that way. My wife has a chemical imbalance that causes her to suffer from depression. She did not choose that either. Our bodies were made that way. What does a person made in God's image look like? Perfect health with no blemish or defect internally or externally? Few people will ever live up to that standard Ed. I don't believe God has a cleft pallete or club feet or webbed fingers or Down's syndrome or a conjoined twin, yet each person born that way is made in God's image aren't they? God allows us to be born with physical and mental defects, why can't one of those be homosexuality? Think about it. All of those things can be used to God's glory depending on how we choose to play the hand we are dealt. The Bible is full of such stories.

Evmori, I am no advocate for homosexuality. I do however have a sister who is a lesbian and one of my very best friends is gay. Their "orientation" was not a choice. My sister was married for 17 years and my friend who was studying for the ministry along side me in college dated many girls while we were in school. They both tried to play by society's normal "rules" and ended up losing. They both will tell you that their attraction to the same sex and aversion to sex with the opposite sex was not a choice. The choice they DID make early on was to try to fit into the norm of society against their instincts and they were miserable for it. I do know some gay men that in an effort to follow their religious beliefs have remained "asexual" and have chosen not to engage in sex at all. But they are not too happy either. Homosexuality is a "lifestyle" just like being a scouter or a cowboy or a football tailgater is. But I can say sincerely from my experience with gay friends that they did not just choose one day to be homosexual instead of heterosexual. Do you think you could do that? I'm assuming that you are married and enjoy your sexual relationship with your wife. Do you think that you could one day say, "hmmmm, I wonder what it would be like to have sex with another man?" and actually desire it and enjoy it? I kind of doubt it! Regardless of what studies have determined or not determined, my gut feeling based on my experience is that they are born this way. There are one or two boys in my son's den that I'd bet cold hard cash on that they will grow up to be gay. I know profiling is not very PC, but there are too many stereotypical indicators in these boys for me to think otherwise. Much of that is based on what I observed in kids I grew up with who turned out to be gay. Geez, I can see the replys now from both sides for the things I just said! Anyway, Merry Christmas all!!!

NJ: At the very least, if I were an attorney representing someone who was bringing a lawsuit claiming discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, for example, I would sure like to know whether the judge was a member of an organization that supposedly believes that homosexuality is immoral. KWC: I understand your statement and agree with it. However, the problem is that regardless of whether a judge is a member of some organization or not, he may already harbor certain sentiments and you'd never have any idea. You may get a judge who just went thru a nasty divorce and has a bitterness towards women as a result. You probably wouldn't want him hearing your client's divorce case either. On the other hand, you may get a judge who is honest and can seperate his personal feelings from his judgement and find in your client's favor against his own personal feelings. I think this happens more than people realize.