SR540Beaver

These instances are purely the scouts fault, but it ends up affecting many other people. Perhaps a Scoutmaster conference around the 17th birthday to remind the boy he has a year left if he intendsd to try for eagle, a rundown of the requirements and an explanation that once he hits that magic day of turning 18, he is out of luck if he does not have his ducks in a row. You may end up in the same situation, but he can't say you didn't warn him far ahead of time.

SPATS!? Boy OGE, you sure have earned the first three letters in your name haven't you?

Kind of off topic, but related. I wonder who atheist Darrell Lambert's religious reference was for his Eagle BOR?

fella, If you want to indulge your obsession over ear rings, fine by me. I just find it odd that out of the 34 posts you've made in the past year, 31 concern ear rings. The issue has been beat to death in multiple threads on the forum, but if you think you can re-engage folks on a tired old subject, go for it. Bottom line in all of the discussions is that whether individual people in scouting like them or not, there is nothing in BSA policy that prohibits them unless the chatering organization set their own policy. End of story. What else do you want to discuss about it that is new?

fella, A week or two ago you dug up every thread in the forum that dealt with earrings and even a few threads that didn't and posted your views trying to reignite the discussion. As I said, the issue has been beat to death here in the forum. Find something else to discuss and move on. Most people agreed that it is up to the individual and the chartering organization regardless of whether other scouts or scouters approve of them or not.

fella, Ever hear of beating a dead horse? We've all been there already and discussed it to death. Move on. As the nice policeman says when you pass an accident, "Move along people, nothing to see here!"

OGE, Set me straight here. Are you talking about playing laser tag to count as a monthly scout outing in place of camping or as an extracurricular activity for the guys in the troop? I'd say no to using it in place of the troop's monthly planned event. That would be like driving to a local city park and playing capture the flag for an hour or two instead of a weekend camping event. If it is an extra activity planned as a treat and some fun, go for it. I usually agree with BW and on this one I do and I don't depending on the answer to my above question. There is nothing wrong in planning a "fun" event like taking the troop to a baseball game or water park as a reward in addition to the regular scheduled activites. They're going to do this anyway with their other buddies, why not get to do it with their scout buddies occasionally? To do it in place of a regular planned activity would be stretching the limit, even if scouting skills or lessons could be applied.

Heck, I told my 10 year old Webelos son just last week that Eagle is helpful to getting into college. But I went further and explained why. Because it shows that you know how to commit yourself to a hard task and finish it. Because it shows that you have learned and lived desirable values such as citizenship, loyalty, thrift, reverence, swimming without a noseclip and goggles, etc. Ok, just kidding about the last one! Also that it shows you have developed leadership skills. I told him that college is not like public school, they do not have to take anyone who walks thru the door and they will accept the best and most worthy students they can to invest their time in. I also explained that it is no different than having good grades for the same reason. There is nothing wrong with a Scout acknowledging that Eagle will help open doors unless that is all he cares about. He needs to be able to articulate why earning the Eagle is beneficial to his future and to helping him continue the Scouting Spirit as he takes his place in the adult world. Now, having been around many teenage boys (used to be one myself many moons ago), I know that it is difficult to get some guys to mumble more than 5 words a day. I can see one at a BOR saying, because it will help me get into college without wanting to go into detail. It is the nature of the beast at this age. Hopefully he knows and can explain the why that goes with it and wil take the opportunity to express it.

Barry, As usual, a very good post. I can see, understand and agree with Bob's (and the BSA's) value based requirement for activites. However, there is nothing wrong with having fun for fun's sake either. I think for younger new scouts, all the rules, regulations and learning could be intimidating in the beginning after coming from Cubs where things are more "fun" based. Yes, the activites in Cubs can and is value based, but a little more free and fun based too. When you come from having fun to serious work, the transition can be difficult. While Boy Scouts are busy planning an outing, packing, setting up camp, cooking, breaking camp, etc., surely the SM doesn't expect the boys to sit around the camp fire each night discussing their best knot tying techniques instead of relaxing, being boys and shooting the bull? Bob is right that a well run program will be fun, but it is OK to occasionally have fun....just because. I'm reminded of when my son was playing baseball on a highly competitive team. Their motto was, "How do we practice?, Like we play!" Their coach was a dead serious coach and he worked them hard. But occasionally we had a cookout, a mom/son baseball game, a swim party or let a practice denigrate into a homerun derby. We did it because they worked hard and deserved it. We did it for fun. It helped to keep them engaged in the long term.

The only white shoes I know of are women's shoes or tennis shoes. I'm assuming that this is BSA's way of saying no tennis shoes without actually saying it. They have a certain knack for that. Maybe they said no white shoes instead of tennis shoes because some joker will say that their shoes are basketball, running, cross training, etc. However, "tennis" shoes come in a wide variety of colors nowadays. Beats me!

The same patrol scouting skills taught in "capture the flag" could be used in laser tag. Just an updated version of an age old game. We had a scout last fall bust his head open playing capture the flag in the dark. Laser tag is usually played in a closed facility and would be far safer than running around thru trees, on rough terrain in the dark. The same lessons could be learned much more safely thru laser tag than thru capture the flag.

Pack, Excellent argument! I go back to my question which was never answered. What is the percentage of Boy Scouts wwho would panic without a nose clip and gogles? If they are so frightened of water or drowning that they have an unnatural need for these aids, why in the world would they be interested in being in the water in the first place. That's like someone who is terrified of bugs wanting to be a bee keeper as long as they can carry a can of Raid. It just does not make sense to me that some teenage boy enjoys swimming as long as he has his lucky charms with him, but turns to a quivering mass of jelly that sinks to the bottom without them. Are we talking about 1 in 10,000 here? I think the simple answer is to require them to do the test without the personal equipment. I know many people who like using them, but no one who HAS to use them.

The folks I know who use one turns it on 5 or 10 minutes before turning in at night to heat the inside of the tent. They get in and dress for bed, crawl in their bags and turn it off. When they wake up in the morning, they turn it on for another 5 or 10 minutes before they crawl out and get dressed. They do not run it all night long while they are asleep. PS I believe the catalyst is platinum based in the Black Cat.

If you'll go to www.coleman.com or the review I listed above, it will answer your questions. The Coleman Black Cat comes in two varieties. One is match lit and the other is electric ignition. They tell you to light it outside the tent. I believe there is an iniatial flame that goes out and then it provides heat thru a catalytic process. Coleman says you need to leave a six inch sqaure amount of ventilation for fresh air. The review discusses air volumes and carbon monoxide. It was designed for tent use with ventilation. I got one for Christmas. Still in the box as I have not been camping since then.

Let me make sure I understand something.....we are talking about Boy Scouts here, correct? From age 11 to 18? Just curious, how often do you find a boy in that age range who is terrified of being in the water without a noseclip and goggles? If they are that terrified, I would think they wouldn't want to get in the water in the first place. Just what is so scary about water in your nose and eyes? What am I missing. The main question is this, out of 1,000 swimmers, how many panic if they don't have a noseclip or googles? 1, 2 or 100? The people I know that use them is because they find water in their nose and eyes uncomfortable, not because they are afraid. No different from me preferring wind pants over jeans because they are more comfortable, not because I fear cotton. I'd think a kid would be more paniced by his boat capsizing than whether he had his aids on. Put in a position of having to swim for their life from the middle of the lake, I think they'd really care less whether they had goggles on or not. Again, if they are truely afraid, why would they get near the water in the first place?

It is a catalytic heater, there is no flame. However, if placed too close to a combustable material long enough for it to reach it's flashpoint, the material could catch fire. Not from an actual flame, but from the heat. I am not advocating their use, just saying that it does not use a flame to heat. Here is an excellent review of the heater worth reading: http://www.gearreview.com/blackcat.asp Having said all that, I'm sure that G2SS would still prohibit their use and it is best to err on the side of caution anyway.

I was blessed/cursed with this ability to see both sides of an argument. I try to weigh every issue on its merits. Guess I should see if the State Department has any Diplomat openings available, huh? If going strictly by the rules (which you should) and the boy has been gone for a couple of years and then decides he wants to get his Eagle, he should if he can prove Scout Spirit in his daily life. I do see the problem that some have of a kid who leaves an excellent program because he doesn't like peer pressure over wearing a dorky uniform or because he got his drivers liscense or a girlfriend or sports or just changing interests. One day he realizes (parents goading) that he is almost out of time, he decides just maybe he should go ahead and get that Eagle because it will look good to a college or on a resume. Is he persuing the Eagle for the right reasons or for the wrong reasons? Does he want it because it was the next logical step in his advancement to a program he believed in and was loyal to, or because it will help him get ahead materially? If his intentions are not "pure", he can tell his SM and BOR anything they want to hear. Since he has been gone for a few years and out of contact, all they will know is what he tells them. Scouts are people too. While they stand a much better chance of becoming good citizens who make ethical choices and have good leadership skills, they are still people with failings.....some known and some unknown. One of my best friends from church and school was a very active scout as was his brother and dad. He earned his Eagle. During his scouting years, I know the things he did like riding around with his buddies in cars and shooting out peoples house and car windows with slingshots. Overall, he was a very good kid who I saw live the Scout oath and law, but went thru a short lived "stage" in his teen years. What his minister and scout leaders saw was the good socially acceptable side he lived in front of them. What I saw being a close friend was both the good and bad side. Following the rules and having a conference with my friend, you would consider that he had Scout Spirit and deserved his Eagle. But not knowing what was going on for the years he stepped out of scouting, do you "really" know what his Scout Spirit was? If you knew what he had done, would you think he should get his Eagle?

Try this site: http://www.smoke.com.au/~ic/water-rocket.html I found it by doing a Google search for "water rocket". There were tons of sights to view.

Pack, Any attempt to limit civil liberties concerns me. I realize as anyone else does that 9/11 changed our perspective in many things. Our civil liberites is a huge part of what has made the US so unique in the world. Even in the face of 9/11, I have my qualms about erroding civil liberty. You can't unring the bell once it has been rung. If we allow our civil liberites to errode even a little, what are the chances of ever restoring them back to what they once were. Plus there is the old saying of, "give them and inch and they'll take a mile". The Patriot act and the possibility of a Patriot II is a short-sighted reaction to a long-term problem. Once the government gets used to having these powers, they will be reluctant to ever give them up.....regadless of which party is in power. I agree that ASM1 has a right to use anything he wants to support his views. However, trying to pass off hate propaganda as legitimate investigative reporting gives me the right to question those opinions and views. We have a free press in the US and it has been effective in exposing many things in the past and even toppling high ranking people. Think Watergate and Nixon here as just one example. To think that the free press is exclusively run by Jews or the government and is used to dupe the American people is rediculous. Especially when what you use to counter it is neo-Nazi propaganda and present it as truth.

Sparkie, Instead of dipping the ends of untensils in paint, try the rubbery/plastic stuff that you see on the handles of many hand tools. Places like Home Depot or Lowes carries in on the paint aisle. You can buy it as a spray or in a can and it's main purpose is for dipping tool handles to protect and color code. It sounds perfect for what you want to do with keeping the patrol's untensils seperated.

ASM1, A link to the article with a brief description would suffice. There is no need to eat up Scouter.com's bandwidth with lengthy articles that people can get to thru a link. Patriot II really has nothing to do with the possible war with Iraq. When are you going to respond concerning your use of neo-Nazi propaganda to support your views?

I was taught early on in life that if you are going to make a "threat", you had better be ready to carry it out. Once you tell someone what you will do and then don't do it, they figure they've got your number. It's a bluff and nothing more. If you tell them you will send them home after the second warning.....send them home! Ask the parent to step out of the room with you and tell them that you are the leader and you must maintain control and their child is continually being disruptive. Tell them that they can either sit at the table with their child and control them or they can take them home. Are you involving these parents in the meetings? Do you have an assistant den leader? A boy scout den chief? Are you doing it all alone with parents just sitting around? Enlist someone to ride herd on the boys while you try to lead the meeting. I can sympathize with you. My son is a Webelos 1 and there are 13 boys in his den. For some reason the CubMaster and Den Leader do not want to split the boys up into two dens. They can get extremely rowdy at times. I'm a pretty patient and easy going guy, but it got to the point that it unnerved me and I'd have to step out into the hallway to regain my bearings......and I was only there sitting around. I have not signed up yet, but I do stay in the room and now try to help keep them settled down and focused.

Without a litle more supporting detail, it is hard to comment. Are the things they do really small, but the amount and frequency makes them into a big deal? Or are they really major incidents? please provide some detail of how the boys are misbehaving and why others feel it is a big deal over the SM's opinion.

I can't tell you of any off hand, but do a google search for "free fonts". You should get a list of websites with every kind of font you can imagine. I used to dabble in making web pages and I got a ton of cool fonts that way. Most sites will have a sample of the font displayed for you to see before downloading it. Hope that helps.

Zahnada, Gladly! Is a war with Iraq avoidable? No. The administration has put too much time and effort into it to turn back now. If they didn't go to war, they would look like fools to the rest of the world. We have spent a year trying to tie Saddam to Al Queda and convince the world that Saddam is a threat to the survival of the world. If we were to back off and walk away, we would be laughing stocks. Not exactly a good reason to go forward, but there is no "backwards" at this stage. We have moved men and materiel into place. We have enlisted the support of a number of nations. Even if Saddam decided to come clean and truely fling all the doors open and allow unfettered access, what would the US say if nothing was found? Would we say that he was telling the truth or would we say he is still just playing games and is hiding the weapons? He is d*mned if he does and d*mned if he don't. It is a no win situation for Iraq. Even if Saddam took off into exile in the middle of the night, we would occupy Iraq to "ensure" the peace and control who took power. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Saddam supporter or an anti-war nut. I fully supported out military action in Afganistan because it was justifiable. We had been attacked and we retaliated with extreme prejudice. Bravo!!! Saddam has a very weakened force and capability from what he had when we kicked his fanny in the Gulf War. The small amount of working equipment he does still have is rusting and in bad need of repair. He has been contained and he has not been a threat and still isn't. Has he threatened us in word or deed in all that time? Has he even said he wants to attack us....ever? We are the ones who have decided to go to war with him. We have become the aggressor....based purely on suspicions. As the world's only super power, do we really want to send a message to all other nations that we can and will attack them anytime we get nervous or suspicious of them? Or when they have a type of government that we don't like? People say that 9/11 changed everything and it is the only justification we need. Is it? How does the fact that a bunch of Islamic radical terrorists attacking us justify us going after whoever we want, whenever we want? There are plenty of other dictators around the world that are just as evil as Saddam...why did we single him out? Is the war avoidable at this stage? No! Should we be having the war in the first place instead of trying other ways of removing him thru pressure? Probably, but that option is now gone. What price will we pay for our actions?