SR540Beaver

Where is Bob White when you need him?

Perhaps the uniform police badge could go on one of the BSA's cheesy grandpa style caps.

Rooster, I'm going to be careful here and restate my opinion so there is no question, I personally agree with the BSA's ban on homosexuals. Having said that, I think the BSA has dropped the ball in the case of the Religious Emblem award from the UUA. If you'll recall in the recent case of the Lambert kid in Washington who was drummed out for being an atheiest, the line from BSA was that he simply needed to believe in a power greater than himself....even Mother Nature would do. BSA didn't care which religion, philosophy, personally held belief system, superstition, denomination or religion you came from. You simply had to acknowledge a superior being even if it was a tree or rock. Under this policy, you can even be a Raelian and believe that aliens created life on Earth thru genetic engineering and still be a Scout. If you'll spend some time at the UUA website and read their principles, I think that while you may not agree with their interpretation or doctrine, you'll find that their principles are not off the wall and don't even mention homosexuality beyond a statement saying that they do not discriminate based on race, color, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc. Their PRAY program evidently did contain material concerning gays at one time. The BSA complained. They removed it. The BSA reinstated it and then decided to not recognize the award again. The BSA claims to let the family and church indoctrinate children in their chosen faith and the BSA's role is to be non-sectarian in their role, but to reinforce the values learned in their faith with scouting values. There are even non-Christian (Jewish, Islam, etc.) religious emblem awards available to scouts. The BSA claims not to care what your religion is, just that you have something resembling a religion. In the case of the UUA, they have made a judgement that it is a religion they won't recognize. You can worship a tree or mother nature, but you can't be recognized if you belong to UUA. I wonder, if a boy belongs to a UUA church, then does the BSA believe he can fulfill his Duty to God requirements?

Actually, the Religious Emblem is not a BSA award. It is an award recognized by the BSA and is allowed to be worn on the uniform by the BSA. Here is information from the PRAY organization that runs the program: Programs of Religious Activities with Youth (P.R.A.Y.) is a not-for-profit organization whose national board of directors includes representatives from Protestant and Independent Christian Churches, Boy Scouts of America, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A., and Camp Fire Boys and Girls. P.R.A.Y.'s mission statement is to "actively promote relationships between churches and youth-serving agencies in order to encourage the Christian spiritual growth of children, youth and families." Everything that the P.R.A.Y. national board does is centered on the two parts of this mission statement: collaborations between churches and agencies, and the God and Country program. Their site is www.praypub.org(This message has been edited by kwc57)

NJ, Ok. I concede. At 45, I find myself using Google a lot to shore up my memory. My first search turned up an SNL transcript (the link I added) that had Lily Tomlin's name on it. We have an internet filter here at work that does not allow us to go to a lot of sites. Entertainment and sports sites are forbidden. Seems they expect us to work. Regardless, I could not view the link I listed in my post. I did another search and sure enough it was Gilda. And yes, the character I was thinking of was Edith Ann. Looks like I need to find a memory enhancing pill to add to the Centrum Silver, Viagra, Vioxx and Geritol cocktail.

Rooster, FYI....I found this thru Google. http://www.uua.org/news/scouts/index.html

I thought I knew what a butter braid was but was not sure. I did a Google search and found this site: http://www.butterbraid.com/index.cfm This is a company with dealers across the country. They are strictly a fundraiser company. It has a page that lets you find a dealer in your area where you can get more information.

OGE, Emily Litella was a character done by Lily Tomlin where she dressed as a little girl and sit in a huge chair. http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/76a.phtml Gilda Radner did Rosanne Rosanna Danna with the nevermind bit.

Ed, Should your council or his church or someone establish a fund, would you please let us know. Being paralyzed from the neck down is going to be costly for him and his family from now on. I think troops and packs could do a service project by raising funds for his needs. I think it would be a good testimonial to scouting if scouts nationwide took part in helping an Akela in need.

Well gee guys, you make me feel like the kid who was so ugly, his mom had to tie a porkchop around his neck to get the dog to play with him! I don't need defending, I'm a big enough boy to take care of it myself. Rooster, your comment about not defending me so as to not give your friends the wrong impression exactly makes my point. Forget the KKK and lets stick with the BSA. If you are a judge and you hear civil rights cases that may involve gay issues and you are a member of a private organization that openly discriminates against gays........there is an impression that could be drawn. That is the logic behind the California judicial system possibly looking at this issue. You may not agree with it and I know I don't agree with it, but that is the "why" behind it. Justice should be blind and a man who wears judicial robes should be able to put his bias aside while sitting on the bench, but the question can be raised....and will be by some hot shot lawyer. Like it or not, agree with it or not, the thought process isn't without some validity. That is all I ever said. I'm on record as thinking it is PC overkill. But then, I'm not gay so it would never affect me. You don't want to offend your friends and give them the wrong impression. That is noble. Is there anything wrong with a judge taking a good hard look at how his outside activites might impact how he is perceived on the bench? That is a fair question in my opinion.

Pack, You will be wasting your time if you try to find proof for ANY religion. Religion is a matter of belief and faith. I believe that God created the world, I believe there is a heaven and a hell, I belive Satan exists, I believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, I believe that Jesus is God in human form, I believe in His resurrection. I believe that Jesus died as a sacrifice for my sins and that salvation comes only thru him. I believe that the Bible is the word of God and is His revalation of Himself to man. Can I prove any of this? Nope! I believe it based on faith. I choose to believe it. The proof to me comes from seeing God working in my own personal life that is in accordance with what the Bible reveals. First comes faith, then comes proof thru personal experience. But I can't prove my personal experience to another person. I can only encourage them to take the step of faith for themself.

Here are some links to the local newspaper articles on this scouter's shooting. http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_110912.html http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_111049.html http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_111184.html http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_111430.html http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_111484.html http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_111495.html http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_111607.html

Ed, I just read your last post and am sitting here literally teary eyed. My heart and prayers go out to this Scouter and his family. My hope and prayer is that the work he has done and hopefully can continue to do will prevent some kid from growing up to be the kind of scum who hurt him. Perhaps when this man goes to trial, you guys can organize many, many scouts and scouters to come to court in full uniform. Rotate a different troop or two everyday so the boys would only miss school for one day and have an opportunity to see how the judicial system works. The jury and the judge needs to see who and what this criminal has affected in their community. It could make a difference.

NJ, Or how about leave it as it is and let everyone stay on campus, do their own thing and leave them alone.

Rooster, You have to be careful using those kind of examples to illustrate a point in these threads. If you'll remember back earlier in this same thread I was raked over the coals and accused of comparing the BSA to the KKK. I too was just illustrating a simple point.

Pack, Good for you!!! This reminds me of a situation in my life some 20 odd years ago. Our Pastor told an outreach group I was in about a evangelistic mission trip to South America. It is the one time in my life that I can honestly say God spoke to me. Not verbally, but a distinct, powerful impression that I was supposed to go. Long story short, I had only been out of college about 2 years, married for 1 year and had just started a new job. None of those things were very conducive to taking the trip or paying for it. I had only confided in my wife my impression about going and we prayed about it. A week later, my Pastor approached me and said that there was a person in our church who said that if I wanted to go on this trip, they would pay for it lock, stock and barrel. My boss was a Christian who gave me the time off with no problem even though I had not accrued enough vacation time yet. The moral to my story is this....you can approach the boy or his family and tell them that someone believes in them and their growth as a scout enough to want to make an investment in their future and make something special happen for them. No discussion of wealth or poverty or feeling humbled in front of their benefactor. Just an unexpected gift of grace that makes the impossible possible.

I've read this in other threads and maybe it will help here. Let the boys determine the rules and regulations of their troop....with adult supervision. More often than not, they know right from wrong and will be harder on themselves than the adults would if they wrote the rules. Perhaps they need to define rules or a framework of what constitutes their activies. To me, camping is camping. Spending the night in a cabin is a sleepover just like going to a friends house. Just because you sleep in a sleeping bag does not make it camping. Perhaps they need to define guidelines for their activites that could include things like, has to be outdoors, has to be under the stars or in tents, etc.

OGE, Just to play the devil's advocate.....what if it was Caesar and imperialist Rome? Oh wait, it was! Jesus said to render unto Caesar what was Caesar's and unto God what was God's. Rome took nations by conquest and ruled them as part of their empire against the wishes of the conquered people. Jesus recognized governments in power in general, not which one was good and which one was evil. He recognized that whether someone wanted to or not, the government in power had the ability to make you do what they wanted you to do or suffer the consequences. Was Jesus saying that both the government and God had power over you and if you didn't fulfill your obligations to them, you would face the consequences? Or was he saying that under the government you are forced to fulfill an obligation and under God you choose to fulfill an obligation? Either way, Jesus says we have obligations under laws...God's and the governments?

Just my 2 cents. I agree, the only advantage to cots is storage and not comfort. And maybe for sleeping up off of the ground if you are sleeping under the stars. But most things that crawl or go bump in the night won't have any more of a problem getting to you on your cot as sopposed to the ground. Personally, at 6'2" and 250 lbs, a cot is anything but comfortable. They were not even comfortable when I was a kid in grade school and much, much smaller.

Rooster, I understand and agree with your explanation...up to a point. You are confusing actions with instincts. As a youth, there were many many girls I lusted for, but controlled my behavior and did nothing. In fact, the vast majority of those girls never ever knew I lusted for them. I chose not to persue the actions of my feelings. I didn't commit the physical sin. However, my body experienced certain physical states of arousal in the presence of these girls. They couldn't be helped, just suppressed. I think you know what I'm talking about. I'm betting that you used to be a teenager with raging hormones too. LOL You were naturally attracted sexually to the female of the species. There was nothing you could do to stop being attracted. For a gay person, the feelings are the same, except for the same gender. They don't one day just say, "hey, I'm going to flip this switch and never be attracted to a woman sexually, but will be to men!" Now, they CAN choose not to follow that attraction all the way to a sexual relationship, but they CAN'T choose to not have the attraction. It is not the physical act that makes them gay, it is the atraction that is at the root of it that makes them gay. That attraction comes from the brain just as autism or lack of seratonin uptake does. 99.9 % of gays will tell you that from the time they hit puberty, they have always been attracted to their own gender just as you and I were attracted to the opposite sex at that time. Committing the act is a choice, feeling the attraction is not. It is inborm instinct. Why their brain developed this way is the mystery that many scientist are still trying to crack.

HEY!!! Bob is still alive! Many of us thought you were MIA.

Rooster, I am unaware of a Christian group that is promoting cloning. Who are they? You are not thinking of the Raelians are you? Their "high priest" is the one who setup the Clonaid company that "claims" to have cloned a human. They are not Christian. Their fouder is a former French journalist and race car driver who says he met aliens on top of a volcano in 1973. He claims that they created all life on Earth thru genetic engineering. They place man in the role of God and believe that cloning is the way to eternal life. They claim to have 55,000 followers worldwide. Let me ask you a question Rooster. What do you consider "natural"? Do you believe God causes everything to be created exactly the way it is or he allows things to be created by laws of nature he set in motion? Did God create me as an insulin dependent diabetic and my wife with a chemical imbalance that causes depression? Or did he set the processes in place in nature and allows for the variations that cause defects and abnormalities? Personally, I think that the vast majority of gays have something wired differently in their brain in the womb that causes them to be gay. I would find it hard to argue that all other manner of "defect" can happen in the womb EXCEPT being gay. To make that claim says that people could and would choose to desire sex with the same gender while their natural instinct is telling them to be attracted to the opposite sex. I think a small minority could become so depraved that they might TRY it as an experiment, but a tiger can't change it's stripes. Can you imagine making yourself be sexually attracted to men for the rest of your life and unattracted to women? You will get no argument from me that the Bible calls homosexuality a sin. It does and it is. But I will argue about people choosing to be homosexual as opposed to being born that way. The Bible never says that people choose it, it just says that it is sinful whatever the underlying cause.

Do you have a local historical society? You could try them or go to the local library. Many libraries have microfilm of old newspapers. It would take time scanning newspapers, but since Scouts do community work, there might be some articles about the troops activites. Heck, check out the local newspaper office and see what they have to offer.

Gentlemen, Pardon me for taking a moment to be indignant. I NEVER EVER ONCE COMPARED THE BSA TO THE KKK IN FORM OR FUNCTION. They share no similarities except one. For the last time, they are both private organizations that openly discriminate against certain segments of society in their membership criteria. Period!!! I used an analogy, not a comparison. An analogy often uses a colorful or extreme example that illustrates a principle. It takes a view and sheds it in a different light in order to make the principle more understandable. The BSA and the GSA and the KKK and the Augusta Golf and Country Club are private organizations that have a legally recognized right to discriminate in their membership criteria. That discrimination can even cross over into what is considered legal "public" civil rights areas of race, color, religion, etc. What is it that you do not understand about "ALL" private organizations having the right to discriminate in common. I never placed a value judgement on whether this discrimination was right or wrong, good or evil for any of these organizations. It is their right! That is the only comparison I ever made. I do not know how to make it any clearer short of using a 2x4. please quit characterizing my comments to be something they are not. I have been consistent in my posts. Go reread them with a clear mind and tell me if I ever said that the BSA = the KKK. It isn't there and I'd appreciate it if you'd quit saying that is what I said. For the record (for the umpteenth time), I have no problem with the BSA's exclusion of gays or atheists. In fact, I support them. I think the KKK should be outlawed. But we have a form of government that guarantees us certain freedoms that allow both to exist. That is called....fair. Whether I like it or not, agree with it or not, I believe the intent with the CA judges is an attempt at fairness and not giving the appearance of conflict by discriminating against someone's civil right in an organization you belong to and then presiding over a court where civil rights issues are decided. What in the world is SO blooming hard to understand about that? I'm not saying I advocate banning the judges, I just understand the reasoning behind it. Does anyone understand my point yet??? (Indignation turned off)

OGE, I have always respected your insight and more often than not agree with your views. Sometimes I don't. I'd ask that you do the same for me. I'll be the first to say that I have NO problem with a judge being involved in scouting. But what I'm saying is that I understand the basis of the "possible" ban on CA judge's involvement that "may" be decided in the future. Agreeing and understanding are two differnt animals. My comparison of the BSA and KKK is NOT in their philosophy or activity. The comparison is in that they BOTH are private organizations that openly descriminate against certain segments of society in their membership criteria. One is for good purposes, the other is for bad purposes. But the cold hard fact is at the root, they both choose to descriminate based on their different views. The issue and comparison is descrimination, not that one is a hate organization and the other a value organization. Courts tend to deal more with the letter of the law and less with the spirit of the law. I can see the reasoning behind a judicial system's attempt to remove itself from association with any form of bias, predjudice or descrimination......be it good or bad. They are there to dispense fair and impartial justice based on the law rather than support the personal values we hold dear. Hopefully, the two coincide, but not always.