SR540Beaver

$185.00 in the Last Frontier Council In Oklahoma. It is held on council property and the staff pays their own way to keep costs down for participants.

dan, It is slowly beginning to sink in for me, even though my natural (or maybe learned) tendency is to resist it. Scouting is different from sports. They are both goal oriented, they both teach values. But professional sports (the example our amateur children gets) is about results and not values. Scouting is about values and the results they bring. My son learned many of the values that scouts teaches on the ball field. He learned about team work, sportsmanship, keeping mentally and physically fit, self discipline, striving for his personal best, etc. But they were byproducts. The goal was to beat the pants off of the other team and take the trophy home. Scouting is about teaching the values thru the methods in order to make the best possible man out of the boy for his family and community.....not for glory, fame and fortune. I may be clear as mud here. I admit there is a fine line. The difference I think is that the majority of sports is team oriented and the absence of one team mate impacts all of the other players on the team and the team as a whole. While it takes a team to win, one player slacking off can affect the teams performance in the contest to win the gold. While scouting has an element of team work about it, the emphasis is on the individual and the man they become thru the methods. Yes, you need your fellow scouts to have the best experience, but the absence of one scout does not mean the troop might lose the "game". It means that the absent boy is missing out the most, not the rest of the scouts. A sports team is all trying to get to the same place at the same time together. A scout works at his own pace in a looser framwork of a team. A coach expects his outfielder to catch the ball 99% of the time and will bench him if he doesn't. He is allowing the other team to score. A troop may want and encourage a boy to reach Eagle, but it is up to that boy to choose if he wants to get there. He is not costing his troop anything as they are not competing against another "team". He is only costing himself. All scouting can do is provide the program, support and values to go for the gold, but it can't make him reach for it. Remember, as the boys get older, he has to try out for a sports team and perform well enough to make the cut. If his performance drops, he can still be cut. Scouting isn't going to make him try out or cut him if he doesn't "live up" to expectations. Scouting is voluntary and many sports teams are not. No balance? We are comparing apples to oranges. A boy can balance his scouting with his sports, but the two programs are two different animals and will never be balanced in their expectations of the boys time. That is what I have to keep reminding myself of. Sports is no practice, no play. Scouting is no involvement, no advancement. Hopefully the values taught by scouts will help the boy make wise, mature choices of where his time will be better spent without the threats his coach uses to enforce his involvement.

When was the last time you say a print or media advertisement for Scouts? How many times have you watched TV and seen the same commercial over and over and over within an hour long program. Advertising is an effective means for promoting a product. Constant advertising promotes name recognition and increased sales. Think of the military recruiting ads you see on TV. They make it look cool, exciting and something to be proud of. It is, but any guy who has served will tell you about the amount of time cleaning the latrine as opposed to shooting laser guided missles. BSA has a great program, we just need to package it better. It has to look cool as opposed to dorky to attract kids. Pictures of kids rock climbing is more inticing than pictures of kids lacing a leather wallet. That is the image many kids have of scouting.....arts and crafts. Selling scouting with powerful ads of kids in action and an explanation that THEY run themselves will draw more kids to scouts than seeing a kid at school in a tan shirt with patches and olive pants does any day of the week. I think there is a great factor of the unknown with scouting. Many kids just don't know what it is about. It needs to be packaged and sold. Good grief, people used to buy Pet Rocks because of advertising. If you can sell a rock, you can sell scouting and see many more boys benefit from the program than before.

Take it from a Dad who's son played very competitive baseball for 4 years (prior to joining as a Webelos this year), the same thing will happen next year too. If these same boys play baseball next year, they will miss scout meetings until it is over. We would begin practice in late February as the season would begin in April. Sometimes we practiced 3 or 4 times a week for a couple of hours each. Games started in April and were not over unitl the last week of June. We played 2 to 3 times a week. the practice would slack of during the season, but we still had them some. Also, we played tournaments about every other weekend. On tournament weekends, the boys all swapped and had sleep overs at other kids houses. Obvioulsy when the boys are together that much, a real team environment is established. While I do not want to go back to that environment (especially for 7 nd 8 year old boys) that is my biggest gripe with scouting. We expect the same commitment as sports, without the same effort. In Cubs, we meet one time a week for one hour. For the ones who actually do show up, half the hour is spent trying to get them to behave and pay attention. Sports called for a lot of commitment and in return built commitment in to the team structure. We all counted on each other. Also, there were short term and long term goals. Each game you either won or lost. At the end of a tournament or season, you either took a trophy and bragging rights home or you didn't. They quickly connected the time spent in practice to the success on the field and were willing to be there each and every time. Plus, if you didn't pull your weight, you could ride the pine or be looking for another team next season. While it isn't impossible, I don't know how you duplicate the same level of commitment in a program where uniforming is optional, you work at your own pace, you meet once a week and amp once a month. It can be such a leisurely pace that kids and parents take a take it or leave it attitude. Hey, if he doesn't show up for a month or make the next three campouts, he is still on the team. Now, I'm not advocating sports over scouts. I like everyone else wishes the commitment were just as strong in scouts. I've seen both sides of the fence now and just wanted to pass on my perspective of why this situation happens. How we combat it, I'm not sure either....yet.

Twocub, I take it that this is similar to the Religious emblem awards. It says it was designed by "scouts". That could mean Girl Scouts too just like the religious award. This is from the website: The United States Heritage Award was designed by scouts and adults to give youth recognition for learning about the heritage of the United States of America, and showing patriotism. By earning this award, youth can cultivate an appreciation for the wonderful heritage of the United States of America. A medal and a patch can be awarded to all that successfully complete the award requirements. All requirements can be done with a unit, group, family, or individually. A lot of effort went into the creation of this award. With the events that have touched our nation this past year, it resolved us even more to complete the project that we had already started. Given this opportunity to help others, net proceeds will be given to America's Fund for Children and children's charities. The United States Heritage Award has two different award levels.The silver award is for youth ages 6-10, and the gold award is for youth aged 11-18. Adults can also earn the gold award if they complete the gold requirements and assist a youth in earning the United States Heritage Award.

Heck, I'm just getting registered as a leader. New Leader Training this week and Leader Specific next week. Some other training during the summer and if I don't have work committments......Wood Badge in September!!! WOOHOO!!!

mk9750, Don't consider yourself selfish. Why do most parents become coaches, sunday school teachers or scout leaders? Because of their kids! It isn't always because you think other people are doing a bad job or even that you think you can do it better. A lot of us want to spend time with our kids and want to be involved in how they learn what they learn. It is because we love them. The other kids get the benefit of our involvement too. Not to criticize parents who don't get involved (many people have a lot of irons in the fire or just are not into what their kids are), but I personally can't see how a parent wouldn't want to get involved. I'm always vigilant about who my son is with, what he is doing and what kind of example he is getting. I was one of those people who always wondered what my purpose in life was until my son was born. I realized then and there that I was put on Earth to be a Daddy like my Dad had been. It is the most important job I have. So like you, I'm becoming a leader for selfish reasons....my son and only child. He is 10 and will probably be gone from home in another 10. The first 10 years have gone by like a blur. We can't get them back or make them longer, we have to make the most of what we have while we have it. I wasn't asked to serve, I volunteered and the leadership was thrilled that I did. We have less than a year left until Boy Scouts. We'll make the most of Cubs and I think I'm just as excited about moving to Boy Scouts as my son is. I dropped out 35 years ago as a Webelos. I'm going to get to "finish" my scouting WITH my son. What could be sweeter?!

mk9750, Man oh man oh man.....I wish my son's den had you for a leader!!! You did it right. Pack meeting is the same night our den meets, so we meet as a den the other 3 weeks. Take out Christmas, New Years, Thanksgiving, Spring Break, etc. and you find that you really have limited time. Also, if we are having some sort of council activity, we usually don't have a meeting that week. We just went the whole month of March without a meeting. Belive it or not, we have about 13 boys (I know, too big)in the den and at least 10 of them are always there. We have two ADL's and I just volunteered. I was hoping they would split the den in half, but no dice. They want to keep them together for some reason. Our CC is leaving as his son is moving to Boy Scouts and the CM wants me to take the CC instead. I'd love to be the Webelos 2 den leader and make sure the boys got a more consistent and "disciplined" approach as a good number of them are pretty immature. My son is one of the more mature boys and I really want him to stick with it and be prepped for Boy Scouts. I know half the boys won't be moving up after their Webelos 2 period this coming year.

fboisseau, Not that I totally agree with it, but my son's Webelos den leader has authorized parents to sign off on requirements. I found out because I asked if the work had to be done in meetings or could it be done at home as well? I asked because it became apparent to me that with 21 activity pins, there was no way they were all going to get covered in meetings. Both she and the Assistant Cub Master both told me to do any of them outside of den meetings that we wanted to and inform the den leader so she could initial them and award the pin. I agree, it does not transition well to the troop environment. But my son is perfectly capable of completing all 21. If we don't do some on our own, it will never get done in meetings one hour a week, three weeks out of the month over nine months. Besides, I want my son to learn something and get value out of it. I've seen what is accomplished in the den meeting that passes for earning a pin. On one requirement of knowing who the president was, the whole group was asked, a couple of boys shouted out the answer and they ALL got checked off. When my som had handyman to do, I had him change a light bulb, patch a bicycle tire, oil the chain, check the air in the car tires and wash the car all by himself. I was right beside him, watching and teaching.....but he did the work. If we had done it as a group, we would have had 9 boys wash a car and get into a water fight. Fun? Yeah! Learn anything of value? No.

BW, You get two points for the Holiday Inn joke!!! I would have given you three points if you had got the phrase right by saying you had stayed at a Holiday Inn EXPRESS!

With all due respect guys, Yarrow's question has nothing to do with Boy Scouts and Merit Badges. The question is in reference to Cub Scouts. Up until Webelos, the parents are usually the ones who sign their books and inform the den leader when a requirement is met. Many activities are done at home. If a science project from school fulfills a requirement in the Wolf book, then the Cub did it. The requirement says do THIS task. It does not say where the task is to be done or that it must be separate from any other activity. Some of the athelete or sports requirements require playing a game of baseball or basketball. Does a den with 5 boys have to go find 13 other boys and play a baseball game in front of the den leader? No, if they play on a little league team they have met the requirement. Using school assignments that dovetail with Cub requirements is not wrong, it is right. My son's school had a reading program where they were rewarded for reading 100 books a year. To get a reading reward in Cubs, is he going to have to read 50 more books over and above the 100 he read for school? While the extra reading would be good for him, that is just plain nuts. Look, school assignments are easily verifiable. The boy has to turn in the physical assignment and receives a grade for it. What is there to doubt? Now, I don't think it is right or fair to use something the boy did 2 years ago to fulfill a requirement today. My son played baseball for 4 years before joining Cubs as a Webelos. He won 2 state championships. Can he count those hundreds of baseball games he played before he joined scouts as part of his athelete requirement? NO. He has aced every requirement for his athelete activity pin many times over. However, he has not earned the pin because he has not played any sports since joining Cubs.

BW, Not to speak for Pack, but I think the point is that troops are going to use liquid fuel outside of council property whether it is allowed or taught by the council on their property. It does seem somewhat silly to teach liquid fuel use at Woodbadge, but just pretend. I don't know about you, but I want an airline pilot who has actually flown a real plane over one that has just flown a simulator. I understand WHY it isn't allowed on council property due to insurance company requirements. But the council could coordinate a function thru a troop to teach liquid fuel outside of the council owned property. It is irresponsible for the council to not teach liquid fuel use when G2SS has rules for it and they know their troops will be doing it on campouts outside their property. There has to be a way to protect the boys safety by teaching this witout risking the council's insurance. Good grief, boys do archery and shooting on council property. Teaching an adult leader how to use liquid fuel CAN'T be more dangerous than handing a teenager a loaded weapon!

Pack, Your wife sounds as MEAN as mine! I have to ask her permission to take my knife out of my pocket. She says I cut myself everytime I do! LOL Someday......that totin' chip is gonna be mine!

pack, You just expect way too much!!!! Just kidding!

OGE, Not a tradition but a similar misinterpretation. There was a country song a couple of years back called "Ten Thousand Angels". If I recall correctly it was about a girl on the rebound who was saying she needed 10,000 angels watching over her tonight at a bar to resist temptation. I heard a number of people calling into radio stations requesting the song for loved ones in the hospital. I guess it is the sentiment that counts! They hear the words "angels" and "watching over me" and automatically think it has to do with faith, healing and prayer. I remember asking myself if these people ever bothered to listen to the song at all. Another coutry song used wrong is Merle Haggards song, "If We Make It Thru December". It is a song about a troubled marriage where he is saying that if they make it thru December, everything will be alright, he just wants Christmas to be right for Daddy's girl. It is not a Christmas song, but every country station in the land plays it every Christmas season simply because it mentions December and Christmas. Go figure. BTW, neither of these songs are good for vespers either!!! LOL

BobWhite, I know you have probably answered this at least a few thousand times here in the forums, but please indulge me. I know what the BSA uniform consists of. The hat, necercheif, slide, shirt (long and short), web belt and buckle, pants (long and short) and socks (long and short). So, what is the difference between the official BSA Field uniform, Activity uniform, and the Dress uniform? It sounds like three different uniforms with official uniforming codes.

EagleWB, Your council's rule on stoves and lanterns only allowed at camp for training purposes begs this question.......if they are not allowed in council camps, why bother with training for them?

OGE, I have to agree with Zahnada about using knots. Almost anyone can learn anything, but retention comes with use. Think of your VCR or some other piece of electronic equipment you have. You read the instruction book when you got it and figured out how to program the unit. Six months later you have a power outage and have to reprogram the unit. Can you do it....or do you have to dig the book out again? If you are like me, you dig the book out again. We have 4 TV's, 2 VCR's, 1 DVD player, a digital cable box, a Playstation 2 and a Nintendo 64. Not to mention 3 PC's and a network router. Two of the PC's are Windows 98 and one is Windows XP. Trust me, I refer to books all the time when I have to fix something. Yes, my 10 year old son can pick up the remotes and work miracles without reading instructions.......I lost the talent about 20 years ago! LOL The point is, we require knots for advancement and merit badges, but most boys just don't need to tie knots in their daily life. Heck, even the shoes they wear now have zippers or velcro. Look at the tents we use that can be set up in 5 minutes. Rings and pins, shock cords and all of the lines have hooks and tensioners on them. The hardest thing they have to do is hammer a stake in the ground.....maybe. I'm not advocating dropping knots. It is a valuable tool that can be a life saver....literally. But if they can't apply it to daily life, they will forget it shortly, no matter how many lessons and competitions they have.

Jark, Thank you for the added information. My heart goes out to you. There is nothing wrong with expecting the leadership to follow the methods of scouting and to bring it up when they are not. It appears from other threads I've read over the past year that there are some leaders who just don't get it. The leaders are there to provide guidance, safety and to help make things happen, not to be the "president" and run it. There have been many threads concerning things like odd colored hair and haircuts and earrings. Many of the leaders say, "not in MY troop"! It is not THEIR troop, it is the BOYS troop and as long as official BSA policy is not being broken, the boys can wear their hair or piercings regardless of whether the adults approve or not. If a boy is endangering himself or others or being disruptive, there are procedures in place to deal with it. It sounds like you have some adult leaders with egos who are on a power trip and want to run THEIR troop as they see fit without "meddlesome" parents getting in the way. There have been threads concerning a troop that didn't allow parents on campouts (got in the way) and a troop that forbid mom's from camping. Totally against BSA policy, but it was the way the troop's adult leadership wanted to run THEIR troop. Continue to research the proper procedures and act accordingly in calling these people on their mistakes. Good luck.

Jark, Just a question for clarification. You called this thread, "Removal of family fron troop". Then you said that to your knowledge the boys are not being asked to leave (if I understood correctly). Are you and your wife registered leaders in the troop? Right or wrong, I can see where SOME of the leadership may have a problem with parents TELLING them how to do things if the parents are not trained or registered. Again, I am not accusing you of any wrongdoing, just trying to better understand the specifics of the situation. You are entitled to your opinions and should have the freedom to express them, registered or not.

This thread has to do with one of those "I heard this is a rule, is it true" stories: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=26790#id_26865

I won't be much help since I can't quote chapter and verse like others do here. But how can wearing a Class A during travel be a rule when wearing a uniform isn't a rule? BSA dictates what is an "official" uniform, but does not require a scout to have a uniform due to financial considerations. They highly encourage scouts to have uniforms, but do not require a scout to own or wear one in order to be in scouting. Therefore, if a scout can't afford a uniform, how can he be required to wear it while traveling?

Jark, Look here for a discussion on the removal of volunteers: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=26729

jark, I know you probably don't want to get into specifics, but it is hard to respond without knowing the issues. You say that you and your wife had problems with the CC and an ASM. What were the differences over? Did someone think the troop should be boy led and someone else didn't? Was one side or the other antagonistic and carry an "in your face" attitude? As my Mom always said, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar". I could see the leadership wanting to remove someone who was constantly critical and complaining and generally backseat driving. Now, I'm not accusing you of any of those things. Neither I nor the readers know you or the CC or ASM and the situation that has developed over the years. It is hard to say what should happen or how it should happen without knowing the situation. You might look around in the threads. If I remember correctly, there was a thread in the last couple of weeks on the reverse of your situation where someone was asking advice on removing people from the troop. It could be the other faction you are dealing with.

I have mixed emotions on the one buddy plan. It all depends on how it is handled though. Let me explain why I have mixed emotions. Our Webelos 1 den has 13 or 14 boys. Nine of our boys went a few weeks ago with a Boy Scout troop to a Camporee. The troop is small and only has two patrols. We actually outnmbered the scouts on the campout. The PL's divided our boys up to integrate them into their patrols for the competitions. Now, none of the scouts knew any of our boys and they simply divided them from a list. When they started calling of who went with which patrol, our boys started hollaring about wanting to be with so and so in the other patrol. Long story short, all of the planning by the PL's went out the window and the boys were regrouped according to who was buddies with who. Since I was one of the parents that got to make up the two adults per patrol to go with the boys, I saw trouble immediately. We have some pretty immature and rowdy boys and the patrol I got to go with was made up of almost every rowdy boy in the den. They were all buddies of someone in the group and they wanted to be together. On one hand, being with your buddy enhances the experience and makes it fun and memorable. On the other hand, it was one of the most miserable days I've spent in the outdoors. The boys were so bad it was embarrassing and I had to literally threaten to take them back to camp a number of times. I have to give the PL credit, I could tell he was very frustrated, but he kept his cool. I told him personally what a great job he did and told his SM and the Advancement Chair as well. In our case, I wouldn't have had a problem with each boy selecting a buddy to be with. Where the problem came in was which sets of buddies were allowed to be teamed up with other sets of buddies. I'm only an active Dad at this point and not a registered and trained leader. I didn't want to overstep my boundries and insult other parents by saying certain sets of kids shouldn't be teamed with others. Next time, I won't be so timid. The buddy system will keep the boys happy, but make sure you don't get too many of the rowdier buddy teams together in one patrol.