SR540Beaver

ASM1, This may not be very scoutlike.....but I don't give a flying rip if I offended you with the TRUTH! What I said is not false. Your post contains a link to "whitestruggle.net". Take a look at the site for yourself, not just the one single page you pulled from it concerning Bush. It is a white supremist, anti-semitic website. My Dad was a WWII US Marine veteran who took part in the defeat of the Nazi's. Don't bring that junk around scouts. Like I said, double you dosage and call your doctor. I suppose I could give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that someone sent you this link and you never looked beneath it to see where it was coming from. Even so, I question your judgement and opinions to use junk like this straight off of the internet and consider it to be more truthful than professional journalists who actually have to substantiate their stories before editors allow it to be printed. All you've accomplished is showing how niave and gullible you are. Open your eyes and do a little research first.(This message has been edited by kwc57)

There was a thread a couple of months back concerning the movie. It contained a link to a company that sold tapes of the movie. I don't remember what forum it was in, but it seemed that "Follow Me Boys" was in the thread title. You might search thru the forums for it. There was discussion about these tapes possibly being pirated copies since Disney had not released it themselves.

Hey LV, Good to see you back! Hope you stick around.

ASM1, Israel is only one small piece of the puzzle and is used as a catch all excuse for Islamic terrorists. The Arab and Muslim world could care less about the Palestinians. Don't believe me? Then answer this question, how come all of those Muslims who whine about the Palestinian's plight don't come to their rescue? They won't accept their refugees into their countries. They won't lend military support. The countries that have housed Palestinians in the past have all kicked them out. Do you not think all of the Islamic nations couldn't put together their own coalition in support of Palstine and wipe Israel off the face of the Earth in a few days? Palestinians are an excuse for the Islamic fundamentalists to complain. Bin Laden mentions them in passing, but his real beef is that infidel American soldiers desacrated Saudi Arabian soil which houses their holy shrines. That and his particular brand of Islam's goal is to convert the entire world to Islam either by persausion or the sword. If Israel ceased to exist tomorrow, the terrorists would find another excuse for killing. They won't be happy until the whole world is Muslim. By the way, I didn't get that from the media you don't trust, I got it from their own media and reading what their Imam's preach and teach.

I strongly resisted the urge to post, but it looks like I am anyway. You said, "What if a very open and avowed gay man becomes straight? Could Dale walk up to a troop and say, "It's ok, I'm straight now. Will you let me in?"" That is an interesting question. There were many here like Rooster (who has taken a leave of absence) who argued for nurture over nature, that being gay is a choice. If that is true, then if a person chooses to be straight again, would he be accepted back as a leader?

ASM1, With all due respect......double your dosage and call your doctor ASAP! PS Before you accuse people of calling the President der Furher, do you realize that the website you listed previously in support of your views is from a neo-Nazi organization. Bizarre!

sst3rd, Interpreting words is not spin. Words make up our language and it is how we communicate. Each and every word has a meaning. If you and I have an argument and I say, "I'm going to kill you" instead of saying, "I'm going to split your lip".....how are you going to interpret my words? That I'm mad and I'm going to punch you or that I'm mad and I'm going to kill you? They are both threats, but one is much more serious than the other. The police and district attorney are sure going to be more interested in the wording I used and their meanings. I have no problem with the BSA prohibiting smoking. I'm not a smoker, so it doesn't affect me! But if that is the intent of their policy, they need to say it in such a way that no one can miss the meaning. The fact that this thread has run to as many posts as it has is an indication that the policy is unclear to many people. When the policy says that drugs and alcohol is prohibited, it means exactly that. They are prohibited, period. When it says you "may not allow" tobacco, the interpretation of the word "may" leaves the door open to a choice of permitting it or not. Why did the BSA and it's lawyers choose ambigious language on tobacco and not on drugs and alcohol in the same policy. If their intent is to prohibit it....they need to spell it out where their can be no question. The debate and problem will rage on until they take steps to settle it.

Generations of grammarians and teachers have insisted that can should be used only to express the capacity to do something, and that may must be used to express permission. But children do not use can to ask permission out of a desire to be stubbornly perverse. They have learned it as an idiomatic expression from adults: After you clean your room, you can go outside and play. As part of the spoken language, this use of can is perfectly acceptable. This is especially true for negative questions, such as Can't I have the car tonight? probably because using mayn't instead of can't sounds unnatural. Nevertheless, in more formal usage the distinction between can and may still has many adherents. Only 21 percent of the Usage Panel accepts can instead of may in the sentence Can I take another week to submit the application? The heightened formality of may sometimes highlights the speaker's role in giving permission. You may leave the room when you are finished implies that permission is given by the speaker. You can leave the room when you are finished implies that permission is part of a rule or policy rather than a decision on the speaker's part. For this reason, may sees considerable use in official announcements: Students may pick up the application forms tomorrow. Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

[Middle English, from Old English meahte, mihte, first and third person sing. past tense of magan, to be able. See may.] Our Living Language In many Southern U.S. varieties of English, might can be paired with other auxiliary verbs such as could, as in We might could park over there. Words like might and could are known as modals, since they express certain moods (for example, I might go indicates an uncertain mood on the part of the speaker). Combinations such as might could, might would, and might can are known as double modals. Other less common combinations include may can, may will, and might should. Since double modals typically begin with may or might, they lessen the degree of conviction or certainty (much like the word possibly) more than a single modal does. Double modals are used, for example, to minimize the force of what one is saying, as when asking someone for a favor or when indicating displeasure. Although double modals may sound odd outside of the South, they carry little if any social stigma within the South and are used by speakers of all social classes and educational levels even in formal instances like political addresses. Like many features of Southern varieties of English, the use of double modals is probably due to the fact that many of the first English speakers in the South were Scotch-Irish, whose speech made use of double modals. This feature has been noted as far back as the Middle English period, but today's most common forms were not used to any great extent until the mid-18th century. They are surprisingly rare in dialect fiction but do occasionally occur, as in Old Yeller by Fred Gipson: Jumper's liable to throw a fit with that hide rattling along behind him, and you might not can hold him by yourself. Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

OK guys! I posted my council's camp rules to prove a point that the wording of the BSA policy is not interpreted by all to mean that tobacco is prohibited. The policy is clear that alcohol and drugs are prohibited. It says you "may not allow" tobacco. What is it you guys don't understand about that. They could have used the words "can not allow" or "will not allow". They didn't, they used "may not". The word "may" means something totally different from "can", "will" or "prohibit". "May" implies that you have the option of prohibiting tobacco use if you choose to. BSA has plenty of lawyers that carfully craft the wording of these policies. If the intent was to absolutely prohibit the use of tobacco, they would have said so......they chose not to. Personally, I have no problem with prohibiting the use of tobacco around scouters. But until the BSA makes prhibition a policy, tobacco can and will be used around scouts where local options allow. Just the facts. End of story.

I was just checking the upcoming events on our Council's website and found this: CUB & WEBELOS RESIDENT CAMPS SUMMER 2003 CAMP RULES ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES, DRUGS, OTHER STIMULANTS: Possession, consumption, or being under the influence of narcotics or dangerous drugs, including marijuana, WILL NOT BE TOLERATED at camp at any time. SMOKING: Smoking will only be permitted in a designated area, as determined by the Camp Director.

The Last Frontier Council in Oklahoma is alive and doing well. 2002 Accomplishments Membership grew by 4.0% in traditional membership, 4.1% in Learning for Life, for a 4.0% overall growth in membership. Last Frontier Council membership has increased from 19,782 in 1992 to 35,175 in 2002, a growth of 77.7% during the past ten years. Traditional Units grew 3.8%, Learning for Life groups grew 4.9%, for an overall growth in units and groups of 3.9%. The total number of Last Frontier Council units has grown 74.9% in the past ten years. Quality Units increased in 2002 from 604 to 699, a growth of 15.7%. Quality Units have increased from 44.2% of all units in 1992 to 74.9% of all units in 2002. Last Frontier Council earned the Boy Scouts of America National Quality Council award for the 7th straight year. Eleven LFC districts earned the Quality District recognition. Registered volunteers increased in number by 6.3% Registered district committee members increased by 11.2% Registered commissioner staff support increased by over 25 The council operated with a balanced operating budget in 2002. The Eagle Scout rank was earned by 247 young men, which is a new one year record in Last Frontier Council, Boy Scouts of America. While the national average of Scouts to earn the rank of Eagle Scout is 2.0%, thanks to you, in 2002 the average was 5.5% in your Last Frontier Council.

Since there was only 3 months left in the year, I think I would have signed up the Wolf and allowed his little brother to attend meetings and participate. Happens all the time, everywhere. When the new year starts, sign up the little brother as a Wolf and promote the older to Bears. We really shouldn't mix the apples with the oranges in official membership and rank. Allowing a younger sibling to attend and participate isn't against any rules and no one can complain. The only difference is that the younger sibling won't be awarded for his activities since he isn't a cub yet.

ASM1, I too read a variety of news from around the world every day. I read it to get a feel for what the rest of the world reads and hears and to get a hint of their pulse. But I don't delude myself into believing that they are objective. Try out www.arabnews.com and see if you think they are objective. Arab News is the first English language daily newspaper in Suadia Arabia. They are state controlled and can only print what the government approves. Many of their news articles actually read like opinion pieces, they are totally subjective. The US media puts out information on a daily basis that unnerves our government. Our press often has a single minded goal of trying to catch our government doing something wrong. How can you say that the US press is not objective in it's reporting and that state controlled media in other countries are? You do need to get a clue my friend. If you are actually reading news from around the world, you need to read it a little closer. Watch for stories about terrorists. Many nation's media will try as hard as possible to avoid the word when they can. They will instead use words such as rebels, freedom fighters, militants, etc. If you strap a bomb to your body and walk into a restaurant and blow yourself and the customers up....you are a TERRORIST! The whole purpose of the exercise is to strike terror into the hearts of their enenmy and destabilize their way of life. Those countries that are sympathetic to the terrorist's cause will avoid labeling them for what they are at any cost and report it that way in their state run media.

OGE, I doubt if such a picture exists. If you go to Google, there is a tab you can click on to do "Image" searches. I searched on Dale's full name and found plenty of pictures of him, but none in uniform. I would think that if a pic of Dale like you described existed on the web, Google would find it.

I can sympathize with the single mom up to a point. When my son was only 3, my wife had a work assignment that took her out of town for almost a year. she was home less than 36 hours on the weekends. Not unlike being a single parent who's ex has the kids on the weekends. However, much of parenting is about sacrifice. Many, many single parents (male and female) have multiple kids at different ages that are involved in different activities. Two kids on different baseball teams with different game schedules and tournaments at different parks. A son in some team sport with a daughter in cheer. The list and possibilities are endless. This sounds like a matter of convenience for the Mom and she wants an organization to bend their rules to accomodate HER. I guarantee you this, if it were a sport, 99.9% of coaches whould not allow a brother who is 2 years younger to "play up". And the older brother "playing down" is strictly forbidden in youth sports. Not to be mean-spirited, but she either needs to suck it up or get creative in how to get her kids to different places. Chances are, their meetings won't even be on the same day at the same time. She has to go on campouts with her younger son, but not her older son. There are ways around the problem, I see people do it everyday.

BW, 99.9% of the time I agree with you. I don't here. I agree with your sentiment, but not you interpretation. The policy "prohibits" alcohol and controlled substances....period. It then goes on to say that adult leaders "should" support a no-smoking stance and "may not" allow the use of tobacco products. This part of the policy is leaving tobacco use decisions at the local level. To settle this once and for all, the BSA needs to rewrite their policy to say this: The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of (alcoholic beverages, controlled substances and tobacco products) at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members. All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities (must) be conducted on a smoke-free basis. No muss, no fuss and nothing left to differing opinions. Clear, simple and concise. Until BSA changes the policy to read this way, the wording will be left open to interpretation for words such as "should" and "may not" as opposed to "prohibits".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he has to complete requirements as a Webelo in order to get his AOL. Even if he has his AOL at 9 somwhow, I think the troop could still use the age and grade as a joining requirement. Hopefully Bob White will comment.

KS, I enjoyed your answer. I spend several hours a night watching the various news channels analyze the coming war. I agree with your statements concerning the French and German investments in Iraqi oil. A war there could very possibly destabilize their economies, which is a bad thing for them. I get a kick out of guys like Bill O'Reilly who can't seem to understand that other nations have as much of a right and responsibility to look after their own national interests as we do. Our stance of either you are with us or you are against us is rhetoric that is offensive to other nations. The US's national interests should not come before the interests of other nations where the other nation's citizens are concerned. I too am waiting to read ASM's "informed" facts.

scoutldr, I hope you were making a joke about believing Falwell's Teletubby comments. Remember, Falwell also said this about the events of 9/11: "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" You don't believe that do you?

Acco, Good post. I have to agree. Sometimes we get too black and white and pick nits in these threads. As far as I know, there was only one person who was/is perfect. And he stays to busy to be a scouter. Of course we want good role models for our kids, but we do have to take into consideration the human factor and free will. If we were to limit scouters to those who don't drink, don't smoke, aren't overweight, aren't gay, only practice a certain type of religion, never been divroced, etc., we would be severly limited in our scouter resources. Look at politics. Both parties and the media look for and exploit any shred of dirt they can find on an opposing politician. There are many many good people out there that could answer the call and serve their city, state or nation well. Many of them won't because it just isn't worth the scrutiny they will be under. The sad thing is, many of those people actually have nothing to hide, they just see the current scene as too much of a hassle to be worth it. There was a time in my life when I considered entering the local political scene. There isn't enough money in the world to entice me now. No one is perfect, we all have our flaws. Yet we are all a role model to someone at sometime. Even as a kid, there were people I looked up to and emulated in certain aspects of my life. At the same time, there were things about them that I chose not to emulate. I've known guys that knew how to hunker down and complete a hard task. That was admirable and it made me want to do the same thing. But some of these guys cussed like sailors. I knew it was wrong, bad and a flaw. I chose not to emulate that. Kids get input from a variety of sources. The biggest two being their parents and hopefully their church. With that guidance, they learn how to seperate the wheat from the chaff. I want my son under scouters who overall are good moral decent men. If one of them happens to smoke a pipe, I'm OK with it. My son preaches all the time about the dangers of tobacco that he learned at school, TV and scouts.

Pack, That goes along with the theory of catching colds. For ages people thought colds came from being in cold weather. Hence, the name cold. Actually, colds are caught DURING cold weather, but not from being in it. Researchers say it is because we are confined indoors more during cold weather with all of those nasty bugs floating around. Another ringing endorsement for getting outdoors.

MK, I posted here earlier and won't repeat myself except to say that our chief is practically non-existent and just a big kid. I have a feeling (based solely on this one experience) that some troops either provide the only kid(s) who will volunteer to take the job or take a problem kid and hope that giving him some responsibility will help him mature. When you have a room full of screaming Cubs bouncing off the wall, you already have all you can handle. The last thing you need is an additional "kid" twice the Cub's size to deal with too. My hope would be that an SM would pick some of the more mature (regardless of age) scouts to serve as chiefs and ASK them to do the job. They can be a very effective tool for retention or......for dropping out.

Right after we get rid of all the divorced scouters, we can start working on the smokers and the obese scouters. Hey, troops may actually become boy led by default.

Geez, I hate to go off topic and open another can of worms......but what the heck! Many here argue that BSA is based on traditional values. Therefore, we exclude atheists and homosexuals because they are not good role models. What about divorced leaders? Traditional values takes a dim view of divorce. Many Christian denominations believe that marriage is for life and that if you get a divorce and remarry, you are commiting adultry.....repeatedly! Divorce is harmful to children. Divorce shows an inability to work thru difficulty and to stick with a committment. Not very Scoutlike is it? Perhaps we should think about excluding all of those divorced leaders as well. Just like homosexuality is for many Christians, divorce is a moral issue. Couldn't you say that a divorced scouter is a bad role model?