SR540Beaver

OGE, Well, since I was the one questioning it in the other thread, I am obliged to respond to this one. There are a variety of philosophies out there when it comes to MA schools. Some guys have chosen to commercialize and franchise. Some guys have chosen to concentrate on the fighting aspect and make it a competitive sport. Some guys remain with the traditional aspects of MA. My som went to a school that teaches TKD and is run by the second Grand Master to ever come to the states from Korea back in the early 60's. He has taught MA in Oklahoma City for over 40 years now and is very traditional. It breaks his heart to see some of the directions MA in general has taken over the years. He will take students as young as 4, but he "tries them out" first to see if they have the attention span and maturity to start or he tells their parents to bring them back in a couple of years. There were only three teenagers at our school who were black belts. They had been studying for close to 10 years and were exceptional. Usually, he allows them to get to purple belt and holds them there until he feels they are ready to advance. Rather than run a mill and send them thru as fast as possible, he suggests that they take their time between testing so they won't get to purple in 2 years and then have to wait 3 or 4 years to advance further. MA instructors like him use a very subjective means in advancement. They hold tests every three months, but you only get to test if the instructor thinks you are ready. What you think about your abilities does not mean sqaut to him. When you leave his school, you represent him and you'd better know your stuff, so he is picky about awarding a belt to you. MA is about much more than technique, it is also about philosophy. If you want to learn it so you can beat someone up, he won't teach you. His motto is, "learn to fight in order to keep from fighting". The black belts (all taught by him) who teach in his school will tell you that your MA education does not even start until you reach black belt. Everything before is just prep work. Therefore, the black belt does not see himself as having reached a pinnacle, he has only packed for the journey he is now ready to embark on. Don't get me wrong, they are proud of attaining the black belt and worked hard for it, but there are nine levels of black belt to attain. It is too bad that Scouting does not approve of MA, because there are so many similarities between the two. Here are the Five Tenets of TKD: 1.Courtesy (politeness, civility, gentility, manners, kindness) 2.Integrity (honesty, character, decency, honor, principle) 3.Perseverance (endurance, persistence, steadfastness, tenacity) 4.Self-Control (manage, regulate, command, govern, contain) 5.Indomitable Spirit (invincible, unconquerable, unyielding) Tae Kwon Do is a traditional martial art emphasizing the ancient and honored values of respect and loyalty for one's country, parents, elders, teachers and friends or fellow students. The practice of courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self control and an indomitable spirit is equally important as the practice of a block, a kick or a punch. Without any constraints or mental discipline, the physical techniques become merely "street skills". Street skills make only half a student. You strive to develop the complete, well-rounded, disciplined and responsible martial artist.

Laurie, Scouting is meant to reach kids thru positive motivation. But sometimes, kids will push the envelope and do thinks that are just flat out unacceptable and sometimes you have to put you foot down. Especially if they are influencing the other boys behavior. This boy and his mother needs to be told in plain and simple language that those words and attitudes are not acceptable in scouting and he will not be allowed to act that way at scouting events. Tell him that if he persists, he will not be allowed to attend and stick to it. Yes, try to reach out to him and work with him and even cut him a little slack in hopes that there will be long term benefits. But, if he can not behave and disrupts others and continues in that vein, he can't come back until he behaves. He obviously has no boundaries at home and probably will respond to them elsewhere if someone will just expect it of him. I have a nephew that is spoiled rotten by his mother and shows little respect to her. He has an aunt that won't put up with it and guess what, he does not act like that when he is with her. He needs to know the limits and you have to stick to them and carry out the consequences.

Pack, I hope I didn't sound judgemental on the Martial Arts comments. But Martial Arts are very strenuous and demanding. My sons class spent the first 15 minutes doing situps, pushups and running before they ever worked on their kicks, punches or defense moves. I can't imagine anyone with a Black Belt not being able to bike, hike or swim. I agree that more info is needed and to give the scout the benefit of the doubt. It is just with my knowledge of Martial Arts (as an observer and parent) something does not compute.

Laura, Martial Arts involves punching and kicking.....something that BSA does not approve of. Guide to Safe Scouting and Youth Protection. Judo and Wrestling involve "grappling". My son was into Tae Kwon Do for almost 2 years. I was surprised too when I found out that it was not an approved sport for BSA. I was hoping he could use it for some of his Cub awards since he was no longer playing baseball or basketball, but nope. Just out of curiousity, making black belt is usually a very tough thing and takes years.....kind of like Eagle Scout, how did a handicapped person make Black so young? If he can attain a Black Belt, I don't see how some of the other sports would be off limits. Martial Arts is a very demanding activity. There are some Martial Arts schools that are like Eagle mills and pump out Black Belts at 6 and 7 years old. We went to tournaments and saw little kids running around with Black that had only been in for a year or two. Technically, they may have done the minimum, but they didn't do the real thing. An adult could still grab a 6 year old and over power them easily. About the youngest Black Belt ever in our school was 14 and he started out at 4 or 5. And even then, he was not a full Black Belt, he would have to retest at 18 to be considered a full Black Belt.

Just within the last couple of months there was a thread by a scout who wanted to set up a search and rescue group with his troop. I don't recall the name of the thread, but you might find some info there. I think that disaster relief has gotten to be specialized like everything else has. The pros don't want "civilians" in the way.

Pack, Hmmmm, is the pot calling the kettle black? I'm sure you sleep like a little angel. LOL I've noticed our Cubmaster sets his tent up as far from my tent as possible. I'll let you guess which one of us is the noise maker.

The media making inaccurate statements??? Say it ain't so!!!

Since I was the one who brought up "Little League", let me clarify something. I was using the term generically to indicate my son was playing ball as a child, not in junior or senior high school. Our ballpark was owned and run by the Optimist organization and we were part of the USSSA league. There were no uniform requirements in the league that I recall. Each team had their own policies and created their own uniforms. Our team opted for all of the different parts I mentioned before to give us several options to wear and to keep moms from having to constantly wash a single uniform when we might play 3 league games in a week and have a tournament on the weekend. Our coach was an old ball player who had been drafted by a MLB team out of college and he was almost military about wearing the full uniform correctly. His expectations about pride in their team and wearing the uniform as a symbol became contageous with the boys and parents alike. The two hats, jersey, vest, two tee shirts, two pair of pants, belt and socks ran about $150 on top of league fees and equipment such as atheletic cups, personal bat, mitt, batting glove, batting helmet and cleats. If you switched teams the next season, you started all over with a new uniform. Some teams opted for a single uniform and cut their costs. But it was all paid by the parents, no uniforms were given to the players. This was between the age of 5 and 8 I'm talking about where the boys took such great pride in their uniform and wouldn't be caught dead without it or wearing it wrong. It was expected and the pride came with the expectation and requirement.

BTW, if you are a BOB (big ol' boy) like me, you don't get an option on different materials for uniforms. They only come in the 65/35 blend. I have a feeling that the price of uniforms is driven more by the decision to buy American. I can appreciate the desire to do that, in fact I support it. But, yes a better quality for a lesser price could be had if they were made outside the US. Cabela's has a sharp looking pair of trail hiking pants in a heavy fabric with functional cargo pockets, a knife pocket, a D ring, double knees and a roomy fit for around $29. Everytime I look at them in the catalog I wish they were the BSA's official pants. They even come in olive. The only thing that is missing on the pants is zippered legs so you can turn them into shorts.

mk9750, "County Seat" is a common term here in Oklahoma.......the center of the universe!

Well, California has always been the land of fruits and nuts!!!

BW, Can't or won't? Just for the sake of argument and not suggesting that they do, but National COULD make it a requirement if they chose to, couldn't they? There is nothing to prevent them from making it a requirement other than it currently isn't part of their philosophy, correct?

I do understand how the uniform is part of the method of scouting. I do understand that we want the boys to make the decision to wear a full uniform voluntarily. However, I remember when my son was playing little league baseball. Obviously the uniform was manditory, but we had several different peices that could be rearranged into 3 or 4 different uniforms. Two pairs of pants, a jersey, a vest, two tee shirts and two hats. It was announced in advance of a game which uniform we would be wearing. If you showed up "out" of uniform, you sit on the bench. If you showed up without a hat or a belt, you sit on the bench. How often did this horrible punishment happen? Usually one time a season. The boys were made responsible for knowing what to wear, keeping up with the part of their uniform and ended up taking pride in being part of the team. They also were not allowed to remove parts of their uniform, wear the tails out or turn their hats backwards as long as they were at the ballpark. They were taught they were representatives of the total team and would show their ppride when they had them on. Two different approaches to stressing the importance of a uniform, but ending with the same result. I prefer the scout approach, but know in my heart that being out of uniform will be an eternal problem unless it is made manditory by national. Why can we require a full uniform of scouters at WB, but not the boys at their functions?

KS: one body sound just after lights out and then every dog in the neighborhood's barking WHAT!? You mean it isn't just OUR boys who do that? LOL

BW, "oh, I've never worn them" does not mean that they never tried them on in the shop and found them too uncomfortable to wear. Don't get me wrong, I think a troop in full uniform looks sharp too and I'd prefer that everyone wear one. Our worst offender is the Den Leaders son. He comes to meetings right after soccer practice and basically throws his uniform shirt on over his sweaty tee shirt. Unbuttoned, no neckerchief and untucked. It unnerved me at Webelos Resident Camp last week to see boys in swimsuits, soccor shorts, jeans and camo pants of every shade and material known to man. The least they could do is all agree on the same unofficial item to wear so they at least resemble some sort of unified group. I said I don't like the pants, I didn't say I won't wear them. Think of it this way, if the BSA added lacy pink garters to be worn on the outside of the pants, most scouts and scouters would resist. I'm sure Bob would wear them because it was part of the uniform! All I'm saying is that most scouts have no problem with the other elements of the uniform except the pants. It is apparent wherever you go. National is aware of the problem, but so far have not done much to address the problem. Just like the pink garters, are we asking scouts to wear something they don't like to test their committment to the movement? Would providing a more acceptable pant assist in getting more boys to voluntarily comply with uniformity?

temp, The fact that not even the adults will set an example by wearing the pants should send up a huge red flag to national. Plain and simple, people don't like them. The color isn't the problem, it is the fit and style that people don't like. I'm proud to wear my scout shirt, but so far have resisted wearing the pants. I'm going to WB this September and know that I will be forced to buy them and wear them in order to attend. I won't like it, but I'll do it. I can live with the shirt, the belt and the socks.....but I really have a problem with the pants. I'm guessing that 6 or 7 out of 10 will tell you they don't like them either.

Willys, Check out this website, http://www.skullsunlimited.com It is a company here in Oklahoma City that has an international reputation. They provide skeletons and bones of many types of animals for all sorts or purposes, from museums to medical schools to collectors. They might be pricey, I don't know. But they may have a wing bone of similar size to an eagle available.

Ed, I'm surprised that you can't see how the story of the Prodigal Son would apply to this situation. I have taught lessons, led bible studies and even preached on the subject a number of times over the years and think it is very appropriate for this situation. I would suggest that you meditate on the passage and it should become clearer to you. I'm unclear on how the passage you cited applies. How would someone becoming pregnant outside of marriage considered those actions as being beneficial to themselves?

OGE, I usually agree with you, but..... Let's not forget the parable of the Prodigal Son. I understand your concern of the "good" girls getting the wrong message when the "bad" girl gets the attention. Remember the son who wanted his inheritance and sqaundered it? He returned home seeking mercy. His father killed the fatted calf and threw a feast on his return. The "good" son was disgusted that his brother got all the attention when HE had followed all the rules. The father explained to him that all the father owned would someday be his and to rejoice in his "lost" brothers return. This girl has returned to her scouting roots because she has seen the error of her ways. She will have to live and struggle with the consequences of her actions from now on. The "good" scouts still have every advantage open to them and can see why they should not stumble into the trap she has. It is up to the CO whether to accept her back or not, but good can come from it for all involved. It has long been said that the Christian army is the only army that buries it's wounded. There is truth in that statement. I don't think that it is what God expects of His army though. We should all keep in mind that, "there but for the grace of God, go I.

We just returned from Webelos Resident camp where we had a flag retirement at the campfire last night. It was different from others I had seen. They had all Eagle Scouts and Veterans come forward to inspect the flag before it was burned. It was explained that the next morning, the ashes from the fire would be taken somewhere on the campgrounds and buried. However, they would be sifted first for the grommets. The grommets are the only part that will not burn and they will be sent to a veteran who will keep them and show them the proper respect they deserve. It brought a lump to my throat and a tear to my eyes.

fotoscout, We have had the families that come out for the day, but don't spend the night also. They usually arrive around breakfast time or shortly after and leave after dinner or the campfire. They are there all day for the activities, just don't spend the night. I have not seen them come and go throughout the day.

jbroganjr, While it would be hard work, perhaps it is time for a new unit to be established. Sounds like you have a couple of great people to do the job. I've worried about this same scenario. My son joined Cubs as a Webelos 1 this past September and just graduated to Webelos 2. He will crossover this next February. I registered back in April and have a pretty ambitious training schedule for myself. I've already done New Leader Essentials, Leader Specific Training, Youth Protection and CPR/First Aid training under my belt. I plan on doing Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills in August and Wood Badge in September, followed by Pow Wow in November. My hope and expectation is to walk into a troop with my son ready to serve in anyway I can. I'm not yet familiar with all of the possible troops he can cross to. But I have to admit that I have worried that we might end up in one of those cliqish troops that says thanks, but no thanks. That would be a shame when you consider all of the talk you hear about so many units NEEDING adult leadership and being unable to get it. Time will tell.

dsteele, I know this was not your intended purpose in telling your story, but you just went up a couple of notches on my respect meter. Not that you didn't already have my respect, you did, you just have more of it now.

Hey, check with dsteele and see if he is interested in a move! You can get one with experience that way.

BW, You are correct as usual. Much of it depends on the Cub leadership. Our CM loves to camp and tries to promote it as much as possible. Before our current CM, our Pack did very little camping. I think part of it is that a lot of people view Cubs as "fun", arts and crafts. Camping IS fun! I have noticed that even with our Webelos den, there are certain boys and parents that always camp and others that flat out don't. Some of our Webelos have never camped to my knowledge and almost everyone of them (or their parents) have indicated that they will not be moving on to Boy Scouts after their Webelos II year and will pursue other activities. I think that if we didn't camp, my son wouldn't want to be in Cubs.