SR540Beaver

fscouter, No, the Boy Scouts don't feel slighted. Most boys don't want to go backwards. A 10 or 11 year old may love Cartoon Network where a 14 or 15 year old boy could care less. But the 10 or 11 year old boy will always be pushing the limits of "older" shows he can watch in addition to the Cartoon Network. They want to move forward. We try to give the Webelos a taste of Boy Scouting to keep them interested and to set their eye on the prize. The Webelos to Scouts transition has always been shaky and allowing them to begin to make that transition by learning and doing a few scout skills is what keeps the spark lit. Wouldn't you rather see Webelos at a Camporee on council property getting to see scout skills being performed as a competition than taking them on a primitive campout in the boonies with a latrine trowel and running them away for good?

I've yet to see ANY product that is scout proof!

Yep, seen then in the store and played with them. They are cool. Have you seen the "shake" lights? They don't use a battery. They have a magnet that passes thru a coil to generate and hold electricity in a capacitor. You shake it for 30 seconds to a minute to get light for a certain amount of time. They use an LED also. The one I saw is practically indestructible. They had an ad with 18 wheelers running over it. Here is a website for one: http://notanumberinc.com/shakelight/revamp/index.shtml(This message has been edited by kwc57)

Ok, I'll bite. I know many people complain about the cost, but I wish there were two uniforms. One for meetings and ceremonies and one for activities. Both should be easily identifiable as scouts. It is such a hassle at camp to have to put on the uniform for the morning flag ceremony, then take it off, put it on for the evening flag ceremony, then take it off, put it on for campfire, then take it off. Add camps with a dining hall and having to be in uniform to eat and you may as well just make a uniform that is built for outdoor activites so the boys don't spend half the day in and out of the tent changing clothes. The ideal outdoor uniform would be a long sleeve shirt that has roll up sleeves that can be buttoned into place and pants with large cargo pockets, sliding tabs on the waistband and legs that zip off. For cold weather, you could even have a flannel liner that buttons in. and they should be made of a fabric that wicks moisture away from the body and dries quickly.

I'm not so sure about a "National policy". Our Webelos 1 and Webelos 11 dens went to Camporee this spring with different troops and had a blast. They included our boys into their patrols and let them compete with them. I know, I know.....ain't suposed to happen. None of the events were of a physical nature that would prohibit the Webelos from joining in. One event was having to tie a rock to a rope and throw it a certain distance into a circle. Anoter was a timed tent set up. Other events were orienteering and calculating the height of a flagpole. Although we were in the same campsite, our den was at the opposite end of the site from the patrols camp. Judging by the number of Webelos dens at the Camporee, it is a heavy recruiting tool here. I even saw a number of Bears there too. Now I think that is a little too early and they should not have been there.

Laura, I'm signed up to go to WB this September. Yes, you have to have LST and OST to take WB if you are with a troop. OST is optional as a requirement for WB for people in a pack. It does start early on Friday. In fact, for my course they request that you arrive on Thurday evening to get situated before Friday morning. Every minute of the day is planned and they want you fresh on Friday morning instead of having driven 3 hours to get there and then spend ALL day sitting thru sessions. It is a big committment and a big sacrifice for many people. I'm trusting all of those "tail twisters" in my council to be correct on how worthwhile it will be.

Laura, Look again. Rubbermaid makes a whole line of "Action Packers". I looked at them earlier this week on their website. Look here: http://www.rubbermaid.com/hpd/consumer/index.jhtml Then do a search on "action packer". It will take you to a page with all the various sizes.(This message has been edited by kwc57)

Well, people can be foolish and hide their medical condition if they want. They can also run the risk of singing with heavenly choir in the very near future. I am an insulin dependent diabetic. Several people in my son's Webelos Den know it. Especially the Den Leader who is a nurse and the Asst. Den Leader who is an EMT. I wear an insulin pump and have my diabetes under good control. I've only had teo near dangerous situations in 29 years. Not all diabetics are so lucky. When I'm 100 miles from home on a campout, have my blood sugar fall so low I pass out and fall into the fire, I sure hope someone will drag me out, put me out, treat my burns.....after getting some sugar down me. In this case, sugar becomes a med for me and it must be taken internally. The irony is too much sugar can also put me in jeopardy. I make sure people know even though I've never needed somone else's help...YET. I would hope my fellow scouters wouldn't look at me lying in the fire and say, I didn't know, don't want to know and am not responsible". Before anyone jumps on me, I know this is an extreme example. But to say that we don't want to know is mighty selfish and seems unethical. If a scout and his parents choose not to tell anyone, then the onus is theirs. But they could get a brain damamged or dead scout back from a campout as a result. Another example would be frying something in peanut oil and having a scout who is highly allergic to peanuts. Someone should have told someone beforehand and both the scout and his leadership should work together to give him the Youth Protection he deserves. I would hope someone would search the boy and his belongings to find his inhaler or other meds instead of watch him swell up, turn blue and die.

scoutldr, I don't know, I was about ready to kill an ADD kid at Camporee....so maybe it is life threatening! Our Webelos den was invited to go to Camporee with one of the local troops. I went with our den leader and half of our boys with one of the patrols to the different stations. The den leader's son is ADD and she admitted after about half a day that she probably should of had him take his meds. That was the understatement of the year. His behavior and actions were so bad it was embaressing and I was ready to wring his neck. One of the boy scouts in the patrol became dehydrated, so I volunteered to escort him back to camp and get liquids in him. It was kind of like a coyote chewing his own leg off to get out of a trap! I would have don anything to get away from that situation. LOL It was a memorable campout to say the least.

What with all the extreme sports and entertainment kids watch today, why not bill the campout as "extreme" camping. We have our venture crews and high adventure these days to try and retain boys. Maybe an extreme survival campout a couple of times a year would spark interest and help retention of skills. It would only take one night of building a shoddy shelter or eating cold beans out of a can to get a boy to remember how to do it right the next time. Then he can go back to school and brag about his survival skills. You know, the chances of any of us getting lost and having to survive in the wilderness is slim, but it does happen. Having those skills can literally be a life saver. Another thought is finding some land that is going to be cleared and arranging for the scouts to camp on it prior to clearing. They can cut and use anything they want to and build lean to's or what ever they need. No worry about leave no trace in that situation. You could even camp in town if a housing development was about to begin and the land was to be cleared.

Barry, Thank you for your comments. Before anyone gets the idea that I am against knot tying....I am not. But I've had the same thoughts concerning today's technology. Knots can literally be a life saver, but just are not essential in today's environment. If I'm not wearing slip-ons, tying my shoes is about the only time I need to tie a knot on a regular basis. Maybe once or twice a year when I haul junk to the landfill in my pickup. Face it, the boys are in the woods once a month and that is with ring and pin tents. Should we still teach knots as a scouting method? Of course. Should we be surprised when they can't remember six months later after using velcro on their basketball shoes? No. The only way to retain a skill seldom used is to practice, have competitions and have the older scouts train the new scouts. Here is a question for everyone. Who has had a campout where only "old" technology is allowed? Take a bunch of tarps and have the boys build tents and bedding and make bedrolls. No propane for lanterns or cookstoves. It would be quite an experience for them and allow them to put those skills into practical use when it is windy, cold and rainy to have to build a shelter.

Joni, I am in the Last Frontier Council in Oklahoma. We are a very large council covering 24 counties with 12 districts, 35,000 scouts and 8,000 scouters. Our day camp is 5 days long (Mon thru Fri) for all 4 weeks in June and 2 week long twilight camps in July. A total of 6 weeks of day camp! Here is the day camp page on our website: http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/Daycamp03.htm I'm sure you can contact our council by e-mail and they would be more than happy to put you in touch with some of the staff who may be able to assist you with program ideas. you can e-mail the council at lfrontie@bsamail.org or Camp Director Larry Arnold at larnold@bsamail.org Good luck!

SM406, Split them up. There is the old concept of divide and conquer that I've seen all my life in Baptist churches. Sunday School classes grow and get large and then just kind of stagnate. When they split this one large class into two smaller classes, they always begin to grow again and eventually get large enough again to need to be divided again. Plus, with more classes, people have more options to find a group they fit in with and a teacher they like. Having two patrols can also provide a little natural competition which will help the patrols and the individual boys strive to be even better than they previously were. My son is in a Webelos 1 den currently. We have 11 boys in the den. The Bears have 5 boys. The Bears leader is stepping down at the end of this scout year and there is no replacement. The decision has been made (and I don't know the reasoning behind it) to combine these two groups next year into one big den of 16 boys (Webelos 1 and 2's mixed). My feeling all year long was that the 11 boys needed to be split up into two dens. Now we are combining even more boys into the mix. As you can imagine, den meetings are total chaos! I think if we had split the den, we could have recruited more boys into each of them and continued to divide as needed. The one problem with dividing groups like this is that someone always gets in a huff for a little while because they liked things the way they used to be!!! It usually passes.

BW, Let me show you my confusion by two of your statements: 1. It should be explained to them (by the Troop Guide) that they will be joining a New Scout Patrol which for their first year will develop their outdoor skills, and teach them the basics of patrol and troop operations. After they reach First Class rank they will have the choice of staying together to become a regular patrol OR they can choose to join an existing regular patrol if it has an opening. As they grow in strength and knowledge they will have an opportunity in a few years to join a high adventure Venture patrol. 2. Not if you are following the program. Who chooses their friends at school? Who chooses their friends in the neighborhood? Who chooses their friends at camp? Why is it a boy not in scouting gets to choose his own friends but we think a boy in scouting needs to be assigned friends? They are PUT into a new scout patrol. If there is an opening in an existing patrol, they can join it. Someone other than the boy decided that they will be in the new scout patrol. I understand the necessity of that. But later, what if Billy and Tommy and Joe are all best buddies and want to be in a patrol together and the Atomic Arrows, Bucktoothed Beavers and Rascally Racoons each only have one opening in their patrols? Now the boys are split and they didn't get to choose. I'm sure I just don't "get it" yet since we are still in a pack and not a troop. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't see how all of the logistical shuffling takes place and everybody stays happy.

BW, Not to change the subject, but I have a question. I understand the concept of patrols coming together to form a troop....in theory, but not in practicality. When Webelos go visit a "Troop", they visit the Troop. That is how the unit is presented and identified to the world. The Webelos looks at what the Troop has to offer. Yes, they may be put into a patrol meeting when the visit, but they are visiting the Troop to make an evaluation, not the patrol. Let's say 5 Webelos decide to join the Troop. When they join, they don't say I want to be in the Dragon Patrol or I want to be in the Lightening Patrol. They are usually corraled into a new scout Patrol. From your past descriptions, part of the appeal of Scouting for a boy is the ability to form a patrol of his buddies. But often the patrols are decided at a different level than the boys picking and choosing isn't it?

How many lawyers does it take to shingle a roof? 15.....if you slice them really thin! Ouch! Sorry, couldn't resist.

Ed, has hit on something that keeps coming to my mind. Commitment. I'm constantly trying to wrap my brain around the idea I keep hearing in these threads of Scouting not pressing the Scout like other activities do. While I agree with it in principal, I have a hard time with it in practicality. Understand, I'm still involved in Cub Scouts, but I see the same thing there. Scouting is approached by many Scouts and Scouters as a casual activity. We hope that we deliver the program well enough to help the boy to choose to commit to scouting. But at the same time, all of his other activities demand his commitment. He has to make a choice, either do that activity or don't. Face it, a teenage boy in sports isn't in little league anymore where there are options of playing on a competitive team or a recreational team. He is most likely playing for his school and had to try out. He had to be good enough just to make the team. If he drops in and out of practice and games like he does in scouts, he will either be sitting on the bench or kicked off of the team. He has to be commited to the team to participate. While some think that sports teaches boys little else other than winning at any cost, I disagree. Playing on a team (especially at a competitive level) teaches a boy teamwork, discipline, sportsmanship, commitment, strategy, following rules and accepting authority, leadership, developing their mind and body, personal goal setting, etc. A team has a boy far more hours per week than a unit does at one hour a week. Where is he being influenced more and learning more? My son learned from t-ball forward that he was to wear his uniform to identify with his team and that anytime he wore it he was representing the team to everyone who saw him in it. Your hat was on your head and turned the right direction, your shirt was buttoned and tucked in, you had your belt on and your cleats tied. Your uniform was always clean before a game. The boys learned the rules, accepted them and followed them. If you showed up not fully uniformed, you sit on the bench and only got to bat (league rules). I come to den and pack meetings and see the sloppiest kids in the world because even though we are a uniformed movement, it is optional. I don't see the boys learning powerful lessons that they are applying to their lives because they see den meetings as a time to hang with their buddies....and at one hour per week, it is hard to impart a lot to them. I don't want this to sound like I'm bashing scouting, I'm not, I think it is a great program......if it can be delivered to a commited group of kids. I know it goes against the philosophy of Scouting to make the demands that school and sports does. But, as long as scouting is treated as a come and go, drop in and out activity, it will come in at last place for many boys and families. Unlike school and sports, they have an option to participate in scouts. Unless we make the program compelling enough to entice their commitment, they will participate in the activities that demand their attention. With this philosophy, measuring activity is a moving target.

WHAT?! People tell lawyer jokes? ~

We had a little excitement last Thursday, but we are fine. Usually my Mom meets my 10 year old son at our house each day when he rides the bus home from school. She had gone out of town that day with some lady friends from church, so he was home alone. It is just two hours from the time he gets home from school and I get home from work. He is a mature and responsible kid who can be home alone, but grandma likes to spend time with him. I left work about 30 minutes early because my dog had an appointment at the Vet. I called my son on my cell to let him know I was on my way home. After I hung up, I turned on the radio and they had issued a tornado watch just west of our area. He has always been afraid of storms. The BIG May 3rd tornado that hit a few years ago missed our house by just a few blocks. He has seen what kind of damage a tornado can do because we had to drive thru it daily. anyway, I called him back and told him I didn't want him to be afraid, but there was a warning out and he needed to put down his reading homework and turn on the TV. We literally have the most advanced tornado tracking technology in the world in OK and they can tell you what intersection the storm will be at and at what time. I told him that if it was heading towards our house, he was to go across the street to a neighbors house. The gentleman works nights and is home in the afternoon. No sooner did I hang up and try to plave another call, but my cell went dead. I raced across town trying to get home. When I got there and ot out of my truck, I noticed that the air was very still and very quiet. It often gets that way right before a tornado. The calm before the storm. I ran in the house and my son was nowhere to be found. I had noticed that the neighbors house had no cars on the driveway and their door was shut. I ran across the street and rang the bell. No answer. I rang it again and was waiting when I began to hear a rushing, wooshing sound behind me. I turned to see a wall of rain flying at my sideways and wispy clouds beginning to rotate above my house. Needless to say, I ran back to my house to take cover and in a panic wondering where my son had gone. The electricity went out and the phones too for only a few seconds. The phone rang and it was my wife checking up on us. While my cell was dead, she had called and talked to him and told him to go across the street immediately. Our neighbor had called her when my son got over there and told her they were going a mile down the road to a relatives house who had a storm shelter. While I was standing on the porch talking to my wife, I saw my neighbor turn the corner. I noticed his fender was dented and remember wondering what happened to his beautiful new GMC truck. They pulled up in front of the hose and rolled down the window. My son stuck his head out the window and shouted, "Dad, we drove thru a tornado, we drove thru a tornado!!!" Evidently I had just missed them pulling out of the neighborhood when I pulled in. They were about a half mile down the road when the beginnings of the tornado touched down right beside them. There was my neighbor, his wife, son, mother-in-law, dog and my son in the truck. They said telephone poles started snapping of in front of and behind them. The truck started rocking and debris was flying over, under and around the truck. Something flew under the truck and punctured the gas tank. A huge piece of metal slammed into the front fender and then shattered the windshield. The side of the pickup bed was dented in and their was a crease alonf the top of the cab. It lasted only seconds and moved on. They turned around and came back home since the tornado was past them. My neighbor apologized and said he was trying to keep him safe and then drove him right into it. I told him how grateful I was that he was looking out for my son and that he was with him instead of home alone and scared stiff. I think it was actually good for my son in that he learned that while they can be deadly, they are also survivable. He now wants to be a storm chaser! He said it was the coolest thing he's ever seen in his "whole" life! You can imagine how his mom felt when she got home and saw the damage to the truck. He was the stud of the neighbothood the rest of the night walking around and telling all the other kids about his wild ride. The experience has prompted us to look into having a storm shelter built. This is the third tornado to come by our house since 1998. Sorry to make this post so wordy, but it is too good of a story (with a happy ending, thank the Lord) to pass up telling you. In short, we are fine and dandy and had no damage to us or our home. Pray for those who were not so lucky.

BW, I think all the questions were asked and answered! LOL

My job? Being a Dad of course! It pays treasures beyond measure. My second job is Business Analyst. I've basically been doing the same thing in one form or fashion for the last 22 years. For those who don't know what a Business Analyst is, I work for a company that provides data processing to the financial industry. It is a glorified customer representative title. In fact, my titles have been Customer Service Trainee, Customer Service Representative, Senior Customer Service Representative, Customer Service Officer, Assistant Customer Service Manager, Conversion Representative, Account Manager, Project Manager, Operations Analyst, Operations Officer and finally Business Analyst. In short, I've worked on the software/application conversion, implementation and support side of the business dealing with banks, savings and loans and credit unions. I keep the customer happy for a living. It has given me the privilege of traveling to and working in TX, AK, TN, CO, WA, NM, FL, VT, IA, MO and my home in OK. I'm working on my second million now....I gave up on my first million!

My first reaction was that the letters were a good idea. In most cases. they probably are. I think phone calls are a BAD idea. I grew up in the generation where dad went off to work and mom stayed home all day. When I was 5, my grandmother was dying from cancer and my parents took regular weekend trips out of town to be with her. We kids got sent to stay the weekend with relatives or friends of my parents. That is what got me started with homesickness. As we got older and started having sleepovers with friends, my brother had no problems but I paniced everytime and had to come home. I was insecure and needed the familiarity of home and family. We had a huge church camp in our state that kids began going to when they hit Jr. High. I packed up and went and spent most of the week on my bunk "sick". There was a wonderful man in our church who server as our cabin leader that year who took pity on me and worked with me. He never offered to let me call home. We went to camp by bus on Monday morning and returned home on Saturday afternoon. Usually, there was a car or two that would go back home on Wednesday. He talked to me about sticking it out until a car went home. I did. When Wednesday rolled around, he said that since I had stuck it out that long, why not try to make it the rest of the week. I did. He was a school principal and knew how to deal with kids. It helped that my brother was there too and stayed by my side 90% of the time. While I would still have a little homesickness for a year or two after that, that experience was the turning point for me. Had he allowed me to call home, I'm sure I could have convinced my parents to come get me. While that particular week in camp was pretty much of a lost cause for making good memories, it paved the way for many years of good camp memories to follow. A carefully worded letter telling the camper how proud you are of them and how much fun you want them to have is fine. Keep them away from the phones though.

FScouter, To coin an old phrase, "does a bear poop in the woods?" I'm a firm beliver in Leave No Trace, but wouldn't that be going to an extreme? I mean our Native American friends pooped in the woods for centuries and I don't think it ruined the ecology for us today. I know I don't want to be the designated "potty" boy who has to pack the baggies out on a three day hike.

Here is a link to our council's website for the event being held May 31st. http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/Programs/trailblazer/trailblazer-kickapoo.htm

Well, it has taken about a month to find this information. All of the web sites I've visited had the same canned description that was printed on the flier from my council. I kept looking and looking and finally found one council web site that actually listed an outline of what is in Wood Badge. Would it be so hard for others to share this information too? 21st Century Wood Badge will cover these themes: Living the Values Values, Mission and Vision Aims and Methods Bringing the Vision to Life Listening to learn Communicating Giving and receiving feedback Valuing people and leveraging diversity Coaching and mentoring Models for Success Team development tool Situational Leadership Tools of the Trade Project planning and problem solving Managing conflict Assessing team performance Managing change Celebrating team success Learning to Make a Difference Leaving a legacy Learning the greatest leadership secret