SR540Beaver

twocubdad, I read your post and had horror flashbacks of my days in project management. I thought I had successfully blocked it from my memory......but you brought it screaming back. I'll probably have to go back into therapy now!!! We spent so much time bogged down in paperwork (working the project plan) that very little of the project actually got worked on. But I digress. The old, "give me the drop dead date and we'll work backwards to set our plan" idea is what brought the strange voices back into my head again. I've been in the bank data processing business for 22 years now. Our user and our own management would give us an install date. We'd take the date and start working backwards only to discover that our start date should have been 6 months ago. In a case like this, there are two possibilities. You either extend the due date or you add resources. Neither the user or your management is going to be the first to blink on being the guilty party for not being able to deliver and extending the date. That leaves you with adding resources. If you are digging a ditch, adding warm bodies isn't a problem. If you are installing a major rewrite off all your applications and it requires an upgrade in hardware also, adding warm bodies does little more than heat the room up. You need experienced people and the customer you are under contract to thinks they already pay you too much and refuses to let you find additional trained resources. You take the 3rd unwritten project management option of work 12 to 15 hour days, six days a week. This is the reality of project management I lived with for many years. It all looks good on paper until you put the plan into practice and realize that "stuff happens". Now, I'm not suggesting that you don't have a plan or that you don't give a proposed date of release. I'm also not suggesting that you don't try to meet your dates. In fact, I can only think of one or two instances in the last 22 years that we actually had to move our date, but there was a lot of wailing and knashing of teeth to get us to those dates. The one thing they tend to leave out of project management school is that Murphy's Law is quite alive and well and that you will experience it repeatedly. You learn to pad not in training, but thru experience. And as Scottie told Geordi, they'll think you are a miracle worker when you give it to them under the deadline.

johnmbowen, Thank you, you took the words out of my mouth. I've known a number of policeman and firemen over the years thru baseball, scouts and church. They don't want "civilians" anywhere close to a dangerous situation unless it is relief work handing out blankets and coffee from a distance. They have trained and practiced for years and are paid (although poorly) to take the risk. There have been two incidents in recent weeks of people running into burning buildings to save kids and pets. While commendable, it is still dangerous and they did actually get in trouble with the law for doing it. To a pro, these people muddy the waters and are potential victims themselves. While an SAR person accepts the risks, he tries to minimize the risk as much as possible....and having to watch out for helpful civilians just puts his life at greater risk. I think Boy Scouts can aid SAR in many ways just as any other citizen has when the call has gone out for people to "beat the bushes" looking for missing persons. High risk rescues are out for anyone except trained adult professionals.

joni, Click on the icon with the pencil and paper at the heading of your post. It will ask for your ID and password and allow you to edit the posting.

dsteele, I hate to get us even further off topic here......but, oh well!!! Explain to me why clothing manufacturers think that anyone over a 38 inch waist has a 28" inseam!? I don't look good in capri pants! And I'm not sewing lace on the bottom to extend them either! LOL I always wondered how defensive football players found clothes?

dsteele, I'm sure Barry would join me in welcoming you down her in God's Country (Oklahoma) anytime you want to come. Just bring some of that cool northern air with you for those summer campouts!!! You may want to live near Watonga where the Watonga Cheese Factory is though. Just as good as any of that old Wisconsin cheese!!!

Hops, I didn't say it wouldn't be a rewarding experience.....it would. The question is with BSA so super concerned with safety (and rightly so), what is their stance on what kind of SAR activities a scout can participate in. Can you imagine the public uproar if a teenaged scout fell into the same river and drowned in an attempt to save someone as opposed to an adult firefighter, soldier or policeman? Any loss of life would be horrible, but people would be more accepting of a professional adult losing his life in the line of duty better than a Jr High or Sr High aged Boy Scout.

Dsteele, Relish your new nickname. At 6'2" and 275 lbs, I'm affectionately know around my house as the Incredible Bulk (instead of Hulk) and my wife's Chunka, Chunka Burnin' Love (instead of Hunka)! At least they don't call me Fatman instead of Batman.

Guys, if you read the original post, KS did not present it as a real story. This thread is under "scoutmaster Minute". The story is meant to be thought provoking to the scouts about the meaning of the oath. Do you think that every illustration a pastor gives in a sermon is an actual true story? Often an illustration is made up to bring a concept, principle, rule, etc. to a level people can understand and apply in their everyday life.

Just a "dumb" question from a Cub Scouter! We have had numerous discussions in other threads about what BSA will and will not allow because of safety concerns. Some of them seem almost silly at times. So, even though Venturing is for "older" scouts, isn't SAR a rather risky thing to expose scouts too? I mean, walking thru open fields searching for a missing toddler is one thing, pulling people out of raging, swollen and flooded streams is another story.

le Voyageur, Always good to see you! I hope you will bless us with your presence more often. Bob White, No, a person can't be completely objective when they are one of the parties involved. That does not mean there is no truth in what Joni says. These guys are Class A jerks. Would you want your son in this pack or troop? Would you do nothing to attempt to get them with the program you love so much? Joni, I've been there and done that with a baseball team. It is one of the reasons we are not in baseball anymore. The coach coolected fees and handled the checkbook. No one was allowed to know how the money was spent. The fees were high in order for a couple of out of town tournaments to be played in that never materialized. No explanation of why there wasn't enough money. We had a great team. We played the whole season undefeated in both league and tournament. We took first place in every tounament we played in. We won the state title. My son played his heart out. He would do anything the coach asked of him, even play positions he had never practiced for. He was never a discipline problem. Made every practice and every game. I ran the dugout and the teams web page. My son played 95% of all the innings for the season. The coach liked winning. He liked the recognition. He wanted to keep winning at any cost. So at the end of the season he dumped my son and two other players for kids he recruited. My son was 7 years old. Try explaining to a 7 year old that he can't play the game he literally loved on the team anymore with all of his buddies. I remember hin looking at me with tears in his eyes and telling me, "but Dad, I EARNED my position on the team!" He did, and he was a very good player. I had to explain to him that he did nothing wrong, life is sometimes unfair and it was all about his coach's ego and wanting the recognition. Eventually, he cut other boys and lost other boys whose families finally saw the light and left on their own. Now, three years later, the coach and assistant coach only have their two sons as original players of the team. And while they think highly of themselves for all the winning seasons they have, they are dispised by most other players and coaches. They are jerks too, just like your CM and ACM. Hang in there, finish the job for the boys and then find a new home where you can be of service and be appreciated.

Many people take the no camo serious. I won't take the time to find it, but there was an earlier thread where a parent was denied entrance into a council camp because he was wearing camo. If I remember, there was even a threat of calling the sheriff to have the man removed if he didn't leave willingly. I don't think scouts should dress like infantrymen. However, and I know BW is a stickler for the official uniform, how many scouts do you see in uniform except for flag ceremonies? Not many. They were their regular street clothes very often. I have scout pants and I have a pair of camo BDU's I bought for hunting. I won't wear the camo BDU's on a scout campout or function. But I have to tell you, for ruggedness in the out of dorrs, they can't be beat. For crying out loud, if the military will wear them into combat, they have to be good. Most guys out in the woods want something to wear that will stand up to their activity. The pants the wear to a meeting or to a COH just don't ut it. BDU's can be found online or in surplus stores in a variety of colors. The come in tan, olive, navy and black. The military wears camo. If scouts and scouters want a pair of colored BDU pants for activity wear, I say go for it, just have the official uniform handy for the appropriate times and functions.

Joni4TA, I agree with the other folks here. I have finally taken the plunge in becoming a scouter and will be serving our pack as the Committee Chair. I volunteered to get trained and was recruited to be the Committee chair.....by the Cubmaster! Like most packs, a lot of our scouters fill in where they are needed, when they are needed. They all seem to have a pretty good relationship. Our treasurer recently left and the Cubmaster had to take over that function. Out Committee Chair's son is crossing over to Boy Scouts and we are losing him. Our Cubmaster was going to have to wear that hat too. When I told him I wanted to get trained, he jumped on me like a duck on a june bug. I was thinking along the lines of Asst. Den Leader for my son's Webelos den, but he had designs on me for Committee......so he could concentrate on being Cubmaster. He'll gladly hand the checkbook to someone when he/we can find someone willing. I'm sorry you are experiencing a self serving, egotistical Cubmaster. Like the others, I hope you stick it out and try to convince other people in the pack to follow the program correctly. There is no reason why the pack can't function by the rules and be a positive experience for everyone. If it becomes to unbearable, move to another unit. If this guy continues to exert the kind of control and poor leadership he has in the past, he will end up with a tiny unit of loyal supporters and the other units in town will benefit from growing their units out of his mistakes. Hang in there! The boys deserve a scouter like you!

KS, Your movie analogy is a good one. I don't want anyone telling me how the movie ends while I'm standing in line. However, I don't go to movies based on the title. I only go to movies based on descriptive word of mouth or if I've seen a preview that got my interest. No, I don't want someone to try and give me the whole course in 15 minutes. I do want someone to give hit the high points and picque my interest. My original impression was that Wood Badge was Outdoor Leader Skills because I heard that you function as a patrol and camp. That it was to teach you the boy led patrol method. Only later did I find out that it is half classroom and half camping. And other than knowing that it is "leadership" training, I still don't know what it consists of. I see a lot of people sign their posts with "I used to be a xxx, and a good old xxx." I have no idea what that means and just didn't even know it related to WB until reading this thread. Most BSA training has you show up and listen to a presentation and watch a video. You then get a card signed that shows you are trained. No test, no quiz, no seeing if you really understand the material....simply, you are now trained. So you can imagine my surprise when I start digging to get info on WB and start hearing about "tickets". You have to "write" five tickets and have 18 months to do them. But, no real explanation of what a ticket is. So, unlike other BSA training, I don't just show up for WB, go thru the training and am able to say I'm a WB'er. I have to do these "tickets". My councils website has a separate page for each WB course with an overview of what WB is. But even after reading it, I still don't fully understand what it is I'm getting myself into. Here is a question for all of you WB'ers. I asked it tonight at Roundtable after WB was strongly pushed AGAIN. Should I go to WB this September when my son will be crossing over to Boy Scouts next February? If I write 5 tickets as they relate to my current position, what happens when I move to a troop a few months later? Can they be rewritten? I was assured (with a promise to ask higher up for confirmation) that they are more lenient on tickets than they used to be and they can be written to where they would apply for both CS and BS. Sounds to me like they just want to get people to go no matter what. I don't want to invest the time and money and then get jammed up on tickets I can't do. Thoughts?

Funny you should ask! I was mulling over the uniform today because of other threads here. One of the things I thought of that probably is off-setting to boys about the uniform is the necherchief. Other than the US Cavalry in t he late 1800's, where else can you find an example of anyone using them? Other than scouts, who else wears a neckerchief these days? I'm sure the boys wouldn't want to wear starched collars like people did in the early 1900's either.

Where did this idea come from that Cub Scout(er)s don't camp. I've camped since I was old enough to walk.....and I'm not talking about places that have hook-ups. We just joined Cubs last September and we will have been on 7 campouts by mid-June. It depends on the pack I think. Even Tigers can camp overnight if it is a Pack Family event.

I have a question for all you old goats who've been around awhile and have attended WB. I'm going to WB this September. My son will crossover from Webelos to Boy Scouts in February. Am I going to have a problem in designing a ticket since I will be leaving the pack within a few months of going to WB? I won't really be able to design a ticket revolving around my position in scouting since I have no idea what my position will be in a troop. Should I go to WB or wait until after being in the troop? Does it really matter where I'm at to be able to design and complete a ticket?

Dan, Don't get me wrong, I prefer full uniform from Tigers up thru Scouters. It irritates me to go to our den meeting and see boys there with no uniform, uniform shirt with the shirt tail hanging out or unbuttoned over a t-shirt, no belt, no neckerchief, the neckerchief tied in a knot with no slide, etc. I see it every week. When my son was playing baseball, you'd better not show up for a game without a hat or you were riding the bench. The boys respected the rules and followed them. Our society has become too casual for my taste. Don't get me wrong, I like to wear my grubbies around the house as much as anyone else. But I don't go to funerals in a t-shirt and I don't go to church in shorts. There are people who do nowadays. We've let that casual attitude creep into scouting. We are a uniformed movement, but we are not a mandatory uniformed movement for a number of reasons. We are afraid that if we expect too much from our scouts, they will just up and leave. I'm registering as a leader right now and being trained. I will be fully uniformed. I'm at an age where I don't really care if anyone thinks I look dorky in a uniform. However, I know my body and when I look at those pants.....it gives me pause. The cut and style screams uncomfortable to me. I'll set the example and wear them though. It is a personal decision for me to set the example for the boys and to do it because the uniform shows unity with a program I am proud of. My point was that that is an internal thing that no amount of training is going to change. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You can explain why the uniform is important, but it just won't matter to some people. "Our" poorly uniformed troop/pack seems to be the rule rather than the exception these days I'm afraid! OK, enough about uniforms. We now return this thread to the subject of what is missing at WB.(This message has been edited by kwc57)

Zahnada and EagleDad, Good points! I do disagree in part with some of your observations Zahnada. My son is in 4th grade and a Webelos 1. He just joined Cub Scouts this year. He joined because they had a recruiting night at his school. Each year they try to establish a pack at his school and never get enough kids to do it. The boys that did sign up ended up merging with an existing pack. I think there were 10 boys who signed up from Tigers thru Webelos. My son was the only Webelo to sign up. A den of one is pretty small. Anyway, to my point. He has tried to recruit a lot of his friends at school to join. None of them are the least bit interested. It isn't "cool" and they don't want to wear that "dorky" uniform. This is 10 year old 4th graders, not middle school boys. I agree about the problem with middle school and the problems that come with puberty. If I could black out any time in my life, it would be my miserable middle school years. But I don't agree that elementary kids don't have a problem with scouts not being cool. I've seen it up close and personal. Luckily my son is not a "follower". He is a very copperative and fair kid, but he does not follow the crowd just to follow the crowd. If he finds something like scouts that he wants to do, he will do it. He would prefer that he had friends involved too, but if they aren't, oh well...their loss. Also, he is very good at making new friends, so he can join something like scouts and gains a whole new additional group of friends. I also remember my buddies who were scouts in high school. They took a lot of ribbing and wouldn't get caught dead in a uniform except when they HAD to wear it. It isn't as bad as middle school though. I think the "coolness" factor is there at every age, just worse at middle school.

Dan, My intent isn't to turn this thread into another uniform debate. Perhaps your units lack of full uniformity is more an indictment on the uniform than on training. I know all of the arguments about not making uniforms mandatory because we want people to make the right choice to wear it voluntarily and wear it with pride because they believe in the program. But many many people just don't like the fit and functionality of the uniform. It is a problem from the scouts all the way up to the scouters. You think someone at national would get a clue when SO MANY people refuse to wear the pants or wear them grudgingly! It isn't because they are not proud to be scout(er)s or for lack of training. They don't like the uniform. Training will not make a difference when comfort and usability are the issue. All the training in the world wouldn't get scouters into pink and purple spandex uniforms.

KS, I don't know if this is off topic or not....I don't think so. While there are many leaders who have been around for a long time who knows what WB is but have not taken it, what about those who are new and don't fully understand it? I think possibly what happens is people go to WB expecting something else and that is why they don't "get it" or follow thru on their ticket. I was a Cub Scout 35 years ago and have been away from scouting since then. My son joined as a Webelos back in September. My leader registration is pending, but I went to NLE last week and am going to Leader Specific tonight. I plan on going to WB this September. I have to be honest and tell you that the name "Wood Badge" suggested to me outdoor skills training. I knew it involved camping and working in a patrol environment. After all, it is often billed as the ultimate scouter training. Imagine my surprise when I found out it is "management" training styled after the "One Minute Manager". I'm not saying that BSA or councils hide what WB is or are secretive, but it took some digging and hunting on the internet to find some VERY basic descriptions of what WB is. I know, I know, I could have asked questions of other people. However, since I am new, my exposure to other scouters has been rather limited. So I started digging on the internet to find out for sure what WB is. I know their is some copyright and liscense issues, but couldn't someone somewhere give a better overview of what the ciriculum of WB consists of. If I had gone to WB to learn how to tie knots, build fires, first aid, etc. and found that I'm going to be sitting in a chair for 3 days listening to lectures and Power Point presentations, I would probably have been angry and turned my brain off. I now am planning to take Intro to Outdoor prior to WB. My point is, I think the BSA website at the very least could provide a point by point outline of the courses they provide without revealing the detail instead of just a brief summary. It would help people make a more informed decision on whether they want to pony up the cash for a course.

You know, 23 years ago I was a bank teller. A darned good one. I could spot a fake 20 a mile away. My drawer was never out of balance. I caught a guy trying to cash stolen checks. I could balance at the end of the day and be clocked out before 3/4 of the other tellers began to count their cash. You know how much of that job I remember today? Squat! But I've been in the business for 23 years and it was the starting point. I've gained and semi-lost many more since then. They were all building blocks to where I am today. I remeber the basics, but not the particulars. I have the big picture. Kind of the way I see MB's. They are springboards. They give you a taste of different subjects to help find your likes and dislikes. They help hone your study skills and physical and mental skills. They teach you about setting goals and seeing something thru. Shame on these "leaders", even if the ribbing was in fun. One comment jokingly would be OK. Every five minutes over several days is not OK. I agree, he should have asked them questions about things they learned long ago in school and see how long it took them to clam up.

What am I doing back in this thread? I think I'm a glutton for punishment too. Being a life long Southern Baptist, with a degree in Religion from a SB University and a year of seminary under my belt, let me give you my personal take on things. There are God's laws spelled out in scripture and there are man's laws......sometimes based on scripture interpretation and sometimes not. Each summer as a teenager, I went to our church camp. It was a huge camp that would have up to 5,000 attendees per session at 4 to 5 weekly sessions. Mind you, this was 30 years ago when I went, but many of the rules remain the same. Back then, girls could wear pants or shorts during the day, but had to wear skirts to the evening service. We had security people who carried rulers and if they thought your shorts were too short (male or female), you had to get on your knees and they would measure from the ground to your hem to make sure they were no shorter than 6 inches. If I recall correctly, hand holding was not allowed. Swimming sessions were scheduled by age and sex. Couldn't allow mixed sex swimming....someone might try to do something untoward in the pool......of about 300 people. It was so crowded you couldn't move without bumping into someone. LOL Boys would be run off if they got to close to the pool fence during the girl's swim time. These rules were not directives from scripture, but an attempt to make sure people acted in a moral manner. You went to camp knowing these were the rules and you grudgingly accepted them. Of course kids would always push the limits when they could. Baptist's have always taught against drinking alcohol. The Bible does not teach against it. People in biblical times drank wine. I've had more than one Baptist minister try to convince me that the wine of the Bible was grape juice. I always asked them what refrigerator they got the bottle out of in the off season. The Bible speaks against drunkeness and excess, not drinking. But abstinance from alcohol is a basic belief of Baptists. Dancing is another no-no. I could go on and on. My point is that men make many rules that they attribute to their religious beliefs, but can't always directly support from the written word of God. While I respect Johnsned's right to his religious beliefs, my challenge to him is to support those beliefs with scripture. I have trouble with the BSA bowing to a particular denominations teachings when organizing something like WB. For a person of a denomination who has a problem with the program as designed, I think they should be accomodated when possible. In other words, the person with the belief that men and women can't sleep in separate tents in the same campground should remove themselves to a separate campground. This decision should be respected by his fellow course members. But the BSA or the council should not create a course that caters to this belief even if you could actually point to a scripture that spelled out the restriction. Johnsned, while I know from your postings that this is a church teaching that you believe strongly in and adhere to, can you tell me where the teaching comes from in scripture? I'm not interested in the church's teaching, but the scripture from God's word that supports the teaching. Also, why should the BSA be inclined to accomodate the teaching rather than leave it to the individual to deal with?

midnight, The best way to handle it is to do what everyone here has said about following the chain of command from the local council on up. Do that first and try to involve others. You first duty over and above doing the counselor job you love and need is to the safety of the girls in camp. If "management" just won't listen (and they should be gone if they won't), as a last resort you can take your story to the media. The newspapers and TV stations lap this stuff up. When it is exposed to a large audience, changes have a way of taking place. But that would be a last resort.

jbroganjr, A course is only as good as it's trainer or the person being trained. I don't know which was at fault in your case? Everyone I've heard talk about WB has raved about it. The material being covered is the same wherever it is being taught. Personally, I'm looking forward to it after the recommendations I've received from past participants. Fotoscout You make time for what is important to you. I know many of us have many irons in the fire. I do to. I'm a dad, a husband, an active church member, on the board of our neighborhood association that is currently clearing a huge multi-acre lot of underbrush where our 1/2 mile jogging trail is and a full-time employee. I have not even received notification of my official registration with BSA and I've already done Fast Start and New Leader Essentials last week. This week I'm doing Leader Specific Training for Pack Committee. I'll be doing Youth Protection soon. I'm planning on doing Intro to Outdoor this summer, WB in September and hope to do Leader Specific for SM/ASM at Pow Wow in November before my son crosses over next February. That is a heavy training schedule with my work load, our Webelos campouts we have planned, resident camp and hopefully a family vacation. But I'm making time because it is worth it to me.(This message has been edited by kwc57)

Climb the chain of command! If the council head won't give you the time of day, go up a step and all the way to national if you have to. Hopefully the girls have matured, but it doesn't sound like it. The council head can either deal with it now before issues arise or deal with it later after the damage is done. You may get labeled for "squealing", but you'd "squeal" to the police if you saw a guy holding up a bank wouldn't you? Sometimes doing the right thing is harder than looking the other way, but it is still the right thing! I don't know much about GS, but I can only assume that it's goal is much like BSA's in that it exists to raise good ethical women of character. Have you discussed it with your leaders?