SR540Beaver

The guidelines were to lengthy to cut and paste here and would take up too much room. Go here: http://www.shockfamily.net/bsa/troop-committee-guidebook.htm#Selectadult

The Troop Committee Guidebook explains the procedure. I don't have it in front of me so I'm not going to risk telling you what I think it says. Refer to it. I have done a Google search on "Troop Committee Guidebook" before and found where some scout websites have it online. If you don't have a copy and can't get to your council office or scout shop to buy or look at a copy, try the online search. OK, I'll tell you what I remember. Warning, that and 10 cents will buy you a cup of coffee. The Committee Chair is responsible for finding candidates and reviewing their gualifications with the approval of the COR and probably the IH. Check me out on that though. Unfortunately, often it is any warm body that will agree to do it and it gets rubber stamped.

Dan, If everyone in the district does not understand the training, then the district trainer has a problem that needs to be addressed at the district level first and the council level second. If nothing else, you can go to another district and get training there. You are not limited to being trained in your own district. If everyone else gets it except an individual in the unit, then it needs to be addressed at the unit level with the CC, COR or IH. If the person has the program explained to them and what they are doing wrong and choses to ignore it and continue to do it their way, then steps need to be taken to replace them with someone who will follow the program. In the past year, I've taken Cub and Scout Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, Leader Specific training for CubMaster/Committee and SM/ASM, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills, Troop Committee Challenge, Merit Badge Counselor, CPR/First Aid, Youth Protection and Wood Badge. Everything I learned in each of those classes supported each other class. I attend each Roundtable. I also have read the Troop Committee Guidebook, the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting. I've got a pretty good grasp of the program becasue I chose to learn it by taking courses and self study. The program isn't secret and is easy to understand to anyone who wants to. Are people going to retain everything? No. Will they make mistakes? Sure. Can they make it up as they see fit because they don't "get it"? No. A unit has to have a certain amount of adult leadership in certain roles in order to recharter each year. Surely someone gets it and can steer the one who does not in the right direction.

dan, While it may sound corny; if Scouters are living the Scout Oath and Law, it is each leaders responsibility to make sure they are following the program. Part of good character is doing the right thing even when no one is watching. If a leader knows what the program is, why would he choose to do it differently?

Welllllllll.......OK. I will add that I was actually looking at it from both sides. I'm currently dual registered as the CC for my son's old Pack and an ASM for his new Troop. There were three of us who made a promise to stay with the Pack thru graduation last week even though we had crossed over with our sons to Scouts. We got the boys thru their AOL, but they chose different troops than where we went. We didn't care as long as they crossed over. We had 100% crossover!!! Woo hoo! BTW.....Beavers rule!

caddmommy, Gadzooks! Of course things are running like a well oiled machine in your troop......the adults are running it. Someone needs to tell your SM that this is a Boy Scout Troop and not a Cub Scout Pack. I'm sure the boys are advancing and learning. But they are missing out on many of the leadership and character building aspects of the program as it was designed. The boys are supposed to choose their own boy leaders. If they pick a stinker, they learn not to pick the most popular clown again and instead pick the most responsible scout. Part of scouting is adult association. If a scout needs a POR for advancement, he needs to approach the boy and/or adult leadership about what is available. It is not the SM's job to dole out jobs. You should insist that the SM and ASM's quit doing BOR's. Consult the BSA's Troop Committee Guidebook as well as the Scount Handbook and various other BSA publications. It is strictly a Committee responsibility. Very often a boy run troop looks like chaos to us adults. We want things to run smooth and be effecient, so we step in and take over. We rob the boys of valuable learning experiences and short change the program. An adult leader is their to provide safety and oversight, train the boy leadership and to allow them to learn from their failures so they can gain experience and confidence in leadership and character. If you or the SM have not been trained, I urge you to do so. If you have, I urge you to review the various handbooks and guides and begin following the program as designed. Your CO contracted with the BSA to run the program as designed, not as the SM sees fit.

When am I going to learn to keep my mouth shut? Acco, with true respect for all you do; I will say that I think you did the wrong thing in regards to your two Webelos. We were faced with a similar situation this year. We crossed 5 Webelos II's over in February at our Blue & Gold with an elaborate ceremony by the OA. We had two boys who had joined Cubs as Webelos II's this year. Obviously they were behind the curve on earning AOL. What we did was sit down with them and their parents and explain why we thought they should stay in Cubs thru May and earn their AOL. They would only miss about 3 Boy Scout campouts. Actually, they went to Camporee as guests of a troop back in March, so they only missed 2 campouts. Last Friday, we had our Cub Graduation campout and crossed them over into 2 different troops. Since they camped, they only actually missed 1 campout. I guess my point is that there are always alternatives and it isn't necessarily a lock that the boys would have dropped out if the problem were approached differently. Part of our job is to lead by example and if WE fudge the rules, it sends a clear message to the boys that they can fudge the rules too. Since they got to join Boy Scouts "early", what is to keep them from arguing that they should get Tenderfoot since they have all requirements except one completed. Gee Mr SM, couldn't I go ahead and get TF and make up that one requirement when I'm working on Second Class? You let me be in Cubs and Boy Scouts at the same time!

Dan, Go back and read the original post again. The SM was making it up as he went with no regard to how the program is designed. He has an oblication as a registered leader to deliver the program as designed. He does not get to decide that he as a father of a scout can do his own son's BOR. Why? Because the SM and ASM's are prohibited from doing BOR's. They are to be done by no less than 3 and no more than 6 committee members. He can't decide to do a Scoutmaster conference with a scout out in his car away from anyone else and break the two deep leadership rules. He can't decide that his units uniform will be purple pullovers and dockers. He CAN do these things, but he is running his own program and not the one designed by the BSA that the charter organization has contracted to operate per the rules. It is rare that you will find some aspect of running a troop that is not covered by the BSA. If you owned a company, would you accept a manager who is supposed to be at work from 9 AM to 5 PM, Monday thru Friday and wearing a suit to show up and work 10 AM to 2 PM, Tuesday thru Thursday in shorts and a tank top?

Paul, I'd count my blessings that he resigned if I were you. Training is a great and wonderful thing. I've taken practically every training class available. I constantly go back and check materials any time I have a doubt about what I remember from training. That being said, some people just don't get it regardless how much training they've had. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Trail Pounder, We all have opinions and feelings about certain topics. Some we feel strongly about. Please try to keep in mind that this is a Scouting forum. Even though we are not phsically face to face, the Scout Oath and Law still applies to our actions and attitudes. I don't mean to offend, but you are coming on a tad to strong with some of your comments for a Scouter. Remember, there are Scouts in here as well as Scouters.

TP, I read it on the Fox News website.

FOG, You must be a valuable asset to your unit the way you continually put people's committment to the Oath and Law to the test.

FOG, You misrepresent Bob White once again. Few if any rules need to be made within a unit if the scouts abide by the scout oath and law. BSA does make safety rules and other rules that apply to events such as no tour permits allowed within 50 miles of the Jamboree. That isn't an artificial rule, it is just a rule. As far as scouts having their summer disrupted due to this rule.....most troops I know don't camp in their backyard. Our last three campouts have been anywhere between 100 to 150 miles from home and we have tons of places to camp within 20 miles. The Jamboree isn't until July of 2005. I doubt seriously that they have scheduled their campouts that far in advance. Having been to that part of the country a few times, I'm sure they have plenty of places to go that do not fall in that 50 mile radius. If they want to camp inside that radius, they can except for about 10 days in July 2005. I realize it takes away something for you to be negative and complain about, but I'm sure they can handle it with no problem.

Somehow I have my doubts that the 70 year old grandmother who was made to crawl on her hands and knees and be ridden like a donkey was a terrorist. I could be wrong....it has been known to happen. But I doubt it.

I saw Seymour Hersh on the O'Reilly Factor last night. You might find these two articles of his interesting. http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact'>http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact and http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/

The further away you get from AP Hill, the higher the cost is. I'm in Oklahoma and our cost is $1,900 per participant. I can only imagine what it is for someone from California, Alaska or Hawaii. The patches are for the participants. In fact, so far National has only sent out one patch per participant to wear to stoke interest. They send the council an exact number and will not send additional patches for some time. The population of the area grows by 40,000 overnight and stays that way for 10 days. It is overwhelming. Tour permits are not issued within 50 miles in order to help alleviate overburdened services.

Ron, I believe that is correct. There will be 35 to 40,000 registered participants who have paid nearly $600 to attend. That does not include materials, travel and touring expenses. Imagine all of those people having to stand in even longer lines for an additional 10,000 people who paid $10 to get in and want to participate in the activities.

I've never been on a troop, district or council outing where we didn't do a campfire. We did one indoors once due to really really nasty weather. I was disappointed at this year's camporee though. My son had just recruited his best friend into our troop and had told him all about campfires and how fun they were. We went to the campfire and there was all of two skits. The rest of the time was taken up with district personnel giving pitches for their various committees and activities. I kid you not. It was like watching an infomercial at 3 AM. Then the OA did their call out and I thought no one was going to be left in the audience. I didn't count, but there had to be at the very least 75 people called out. It was longggg and boringggggg. My son assured his friend that this was NOT a typical campfire.

Funny, most of the boys in our troop under 14 are smaller and weaker than the women. Perhaps we shouldn't let them go on outings.....they might get hurt. I'm sure they wouldn't mind having "den" meetings with the women leaders and doing some arts and crafts instead.

FOG, I have a feeling Rush Limbaugh would have agreed with you sometime back about the ACLU. Now however, it seems the ACLU has taken up his case over the police invading his medical privacy. Ain't life strange? The ACLU does a lot of things I don't like either, but they've done a lot of good too. Thier purpose is to make sure that civil liberty laws are follwed to the letter. There are always going to be people in the majority who like things the way they are and don't want the minority to get the same guaranteed rights they have. Love them or hate them, that is what the ACLU tries to combat.

Rooster, I am not concerned about you seeking my wisdom. I am conservative. Don't confuse that with supporting a war of choice over a war of necessity such as Afghanistan. You might not find my reasoning as sound, but I chose to weigh all the evidence instead of wearing blinders. My experience has been that blinding yourself to truth will cloud your understadning and reasoning. You might want to read this article before you pass judgement on my words. The claim has been made by one of the guilty soldiers that it was indeed a psy-op and she was instructed by higher command. Don't discount it out of a misguided loyalty. If this is being done in your name as an American, you should be outraged. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/12/iraq/main616921.shtml Army Pfc. Lynndie England, seen worldwide in photographs that show her smiling and pointing at naked Iraqi prisoners, said she was ordered to pose for the photos, and felt "kind of weird" in doing so. In an exclusive interview with Brian Maass of Denver CBS station KCNC-TV, England also confirmed that abuses worse than those depicted in the photos were carried out at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, but she declined to discuss them. England, 21, repeatedly insisted that her actions were dictated by "persons in my higher chain of command." In the photos, England is seen smiling, cigarette in her mouth, as she leans forward and points at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqis. Another photo taken at Abu Ghraib shows her holding a leash that encircles the neck of a naked Iraqi man lying on his side. "I was instructed by persons in higher rank to stand there and hold this leash and look at the camera," she said. England said the actions depicted in the photos were intended to put psychological pressure on the Iraqi prisoners. "Well, I mean, they [the photos] were for psy-op reasons," she said "And the reasons worked. I mean, so to us, we were doing our job, which meant we were doing what we were told, and the outcome was what they wanted. They'd come back and they'd look at the pictures, and they'd state, 'Oh, that's a good tactic, keep it up. That's working. This is working. Keep doing it. It's getting what we need.'" England, an Army reservist from West Virginia who is four months pregnant, is now stationed at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. The interview was taped Tuesday at Fort Bragg. England is among seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company who face charges for allegedly degrading and humiliating Iraqi prisoners. One soldier, Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., will face a court-martial in Baghdad next week. "To all of us who have been charged, we all agree that we don't feel like we were doing things that we weren't supposed to, because we were told to do them. We think everything was justified, because we were instructed to do this and to do that," England said. She told KCNC she was looking forward to having her baby and hopefully one day putting the abuse scandal behind her.

Eamonn, You get a gold star for Scout Spirit!

FOG, That is really pretty simple. What purpose does it serve to show terrorists decapitating someone in a video? It sends a message of , "mess with us and this is what happens to you". In the male dominated and puritanical culture of Islam, having a petite female soldier standing over a naked Muslim man on a dog leash is a powerful message. I fear that instead of making them quake in fear of it happening to them, it will just strengthen their resolve to hang our people from bridges after they have been burned and mutilated. When Bush was pushing to go to war with Iraq and some people were questioning the wisdom of such actions, there were many people who advocated replaying pictures of 9/11 to remind people of what was done to us in order to incite them to support going to war. Nevermind that Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with one another. People were angry over what happened (me included) and felt we must be proactive instead of reactive.

BW, The nose thumbing could be a Scout Spirit topic during a Scoutmaster Conference.

Dozer, BSA does not say a boy can't play laser tag. They can do it all day long and thumb their nose at the BSA. What the BSA says is that a BSA troop can not play laser tag as a unit or patrol activity. My son and I play occasionally and have a blast. We might even take one of his buddies from his patrol along. But it is a private activity, not one that our troop planned.