SR540Beaver

E, I'll come by your camp at Jambo and inspect your hose connections.

Sorry, make that www.coleman.com. For some reason, when I try to edit a message, I get an message that I am not authorized to make changes.

Eamonn, Go to your local store that sells Coleman products or look on www.colman.com. They have hoses longer than 3 feet, I have one.

Jason, My parents took me to church when I was two weeks old. I was there everytime the doors were open. My parents lived their faith in their daily life. I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior when I was 7 years old. My family and my church taught me about God. My relationship with Him is dependent on my faith. My son has been raised the same way my parents raised me and their parents before them. Mangers scenes at the Fire Department, prayer in school, words on a coin or in the pledge, crosses on city seals, etc. have nothing to do with my personal relationship with God. Do I mind those things? Well, no.....I'm a Christian. Will my life as a Christian or the strength of my convictions change or my faith be shaken if they were not there? Not one iota! Do you think someone will come to Christ because they say the pledge or because someone cares enough to share the Gospel with them? I pick the latter. Our founding fathers were wise enough to want to seperate religion from government even though many of them were men of faith themselves. They came from a place of tyranny where they were told how to worship. They wanted to devise a government that would allow people the freedom to worship as they chose without the government sticking their noses in it. All the ACLU does is try to make sure that the Consitution and Bill of Rights are followed to the letter for every person in the country, majority or minority. When they apply those principles against the things near and dear to us, it ruffles our feathers. But when they defend Christians, we don't hear about it and they are not given their due. They are not anti-Christian, they are anti-religion and government mixing just as our founding fathers were.

Jason, Some charters do not support their units financially other than providing meeting space. That was the case of the Methodist church that was the CO for our Cub Pack. Any funds we had came from monthly dues and fundraisers. Same for the Lutheran church that was the CO for our old Troop. I think you will find that to be the case for many units. My experience is that the Pastor is not the decision maker for chartering. He may want it and he may request it, but it usually goes to a vote of the church or before a governing board of some sort. I know people will do what people do, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that a Christian can withhold their tithe.

Jason, Some churches charter a troop and are very involved in it's operation. Many charter a troop, trust the leadership and are totally hands off other than rubber stamping the registration forms placed in front of them. They charter a troop because they know of BSA and what a positive force it is in the community and a boy's life. They are not necessarily concerned about the personal religious beliefs of each adult leader. Would you be uncomfortable being a leader of a troop chartered by a Masonic Lodge if you were not a Mason or a VFW if you were not a veteran?

Jason, Maybe it is your approach.....respectfully, have you ever consider that? I'm been a Christian and a student of the Bible for 40 years. I don't recall Jesus being an overly opinionated, pushy, in your face kind of guy. It usually takes two to push back and forth and considering the number of threads you've created, it could be argued that you are pushing first.

Our troop is only two weeks old. We chartered as a citizens group and meeting in borrowed facilities. We are in search of a chartering organization. We've been turned down by a Southern Baptist Church, a Missionary Baptist Church and an Assembly of God Church. The Masonic Lodge was interested but could only provide space for us on Friday nights. We are currently talking to a Cumberland Presbyterian Church that has shown interest. All of the Methodist and Catholic churches in our District already have Scout Units.

This might be a little off topic, but I don't think so. Do the older boys who find summer camp boring belong to troops that go to the same camp year after year? I know of some troops that alternate between in council one year and different out of council camps every other year. I visited one troop that told me they didn't go to our council camp because their boys found it boring. Each year they would go to a different camp out of state. I asked how long they had been doing that and was told 10 years. I didn't ask, but wondered how they could know the council camp was boring if they had not attended in 10 years?

Just out of curiousity.......someone remind me what all of this has to do with scouting? I hope Scouter Terry doesn't have to shut the Issues and Politics forum down again for a cooling off period. While I'm sure that most scouters have strong personal feelings when it comes to religion and politics; I would certainly hope we don't sit around the campfire and bad mouth or promote Republicans, Democrats, conservatives, liberals, the ACLU, various religions, etc. to the boys.

Jason, I'm just curious which part of this you disagree with or find to be un-American? http://www.aclu.org/about/aboutmain.cfm The ACLU is our nations guardian of liberty. We work daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to every person in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States. Our job is to conserve Americas original civic values - the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights. Majority power is limited by the Constitutions Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth) and the Nineteenth Amendment (womens suffrage), adopted in 1920. The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees: Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state. Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin. Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake. Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs. We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities; and the poor. If the rights of societys most vulnerable members are denied, everybodys rights are imperiled. The ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others in 1920. We are nonprofit and nonpartisan and have grown from a roomful of civil liberties activists to an organization of nearly 400,000 members and supporters. We handle nearly 6,000 court cases annually from our offices in almost every state. The ACLU has maintained the position that civil liberties must be respected, even in times of national emergency. The ACLU is supported by annual dues and contributions from its members, plus grants from private foundations and individuals. We do not receive any government funding.

Eamonn, Interesting! What we are always told is that in a boy led troop, the older boys teach the younger boys. Your story reminds me of why we left the troop my son crossed into back in February and caused us to start a new troop last week. The troop we went to only had about 8 scouts. At least 4 of them were 15 or older. One ages out in a few days and another ages out in September. We brought in 8 11 year olds in February and doubled the troop's size. Seven of these eight earned their AOL. We brought 5 adults along too. All are Woodbadge trained, fully trained for their positions before ever arriving at the troop, one is the district training chair and an Eagle scout, 2 assist with district training, two serve on Woodbadge staff, 2 will be Jamboree ASM's, and 4 are unit commissioners. You would think a troop would be thrilled to have a present like that dropped on their doorstep! Not so. We found we were not wanted by many of the boys and adults. This troop had not recruited for several years and concentrated solely on the boys they had. As a result, when we fell into their lap, there was a huge difference in age. The older boys didn't want anything to do with the younger boys. Their parents (committe members) didn't want their sons burdened with the little kids either. We found out after the fact that there were actually arguments last fall about taking our Webelos to Webelos Woods with them. In fact, the SPL didn't come because his mom was one of the most outspoken. The older boys wanted to do high adventure stuff. Bringing in a bunch of new kids tied them down in their leadership roles and prevented them from doing high adventure. Had they recruited each year and grown the troop, there would have been plenty of "older" young boys to take leadership roles and allowed them to form a Venturing Patrol. They cut their own nose off to spite their face. Once it became clear that we were a "problem" for them, we left and formed a new troop. As you can imagine, our DE was thrilled to sign up another troop. We (our boys and adults) have the resources and enthusiasm to build a dynamite troop. The other troop will soon be down to 6 boys and unless they change their ways, will die. I now realize that some older boys in scouting don't want to be around the little kids even though they were once in the same spot. The troop owes it to itself to build a good program that services both the older and younger scouts and to be in a contineous mode of recruitment to ensure they have boys at every stage to sustain the troop. Too bad your friend didn't have a clue about Venturing patrols.

Dan, COOL! We have a brand new troop just two weeks old. Of the 8 boys, 7 were Webelos who crossed over to a different troop in February before we started this troop. Uniforming in their old Packs and in their old Troop was pretty lax. We have made our intent known to the boys that we desire to be a fully uniformed troop. My son's best friend says no way, no how. I have a feeling that when he is the only one showing up ut of uniform, he will eventually change his tune. My son was just elected PL last night and is in the process of selecting scouts for POR's. His friend wants to be Quartermaster. My son pointed out to him in the PL Handbook that scouts holding POR's are to support the wearing of the full uniform enthusiastically. Sometimes peer pressure can be a good thing. Plus there is strength in numbers.

Ed, With all due respect, do you not understand the difference between the word "recommend" and "require"? You keep saying that the camp requires a full uniform 100% of the time. That is not what was presented. The wording said recommends. BSA recommends scouts wearing full uniforms, but units such as yours decide to wear just the shirt and call it the uniform. Would you do differently if it was "required"? As long as it is recommended, it is open to being followed or not.

Eamonn, Spot on! My son is dying to get his recruiter patch. His tried to recruit his best buddy for awhile. He had every excuse in the book. Didn't want to follow all those rules. Didn't want to wear that dorky uniform. Was used to seasonal sports and didn't want a year round program. He finally came to a meeting for a visit. He came to a second meeting and signed up. He has been on two campouts now and summer camp. He is hooked. The best recruiting method in the world is a boy bringing his friends. That is why I cooked up the idea of a lock-in that we have not implemented yet. It brings a boy's friend into the unit and gives him a taste of scouting plus some fun and games. Hopefully they will find it too tempting to resist.

Ed, As I stated before, many scouts only own one uniform and wear it 1.5 hours per week. A scout is clean. Wearing the uniform from sunup to sundown for 7 days is not clean. I know scouts who can funk up a uniform in about 30 seconds. As you've pointed out, you can't require a scout to purchase a uniform. How are you going to make him buy 3 or 4 if you can't get him to buy even 1?

Or it could be because they are true to their mission of defending constitutionally guaranteed civil rights for every citizen.....even the one's we don't traditionally or customarily agree with.

Ed, It wasn't a rule, it was a recommendation......and an unreasonable one at that.

Unc, We are a two week old troop with eight 11 year old boys. They started with another troop when they crossed over in February where we had some problems and decided to start our own troop. We have no older boys to run the booth. While our scouts proudly wear uniforms to meetings and camp, they flatly refuse to get close to school with a uniform on to keep from being labeled geeks. They catch enough grief from their schoolmates for being Boy Scouts without compounding the problem......or so they claim.

I wonder what Rush Limbaugh thinks of them since they went to bat for him?

I was unaware that the political parties were broken up into subsets such as evil and good. Live and learn.

Acco, I believe the correct answer to this question is that you wait until dark and take them out behind the dining hall and shoot them. Seriously, most boys that I know only have one uniform shirt. After all, they only wear it 1.5 hour per week normally. We thank God if they even own a pair of scout pants or shorts.....and are willing to wear them. A single shirt and pair of pants does not go far for 100% wear for a week long camp.

vette, You might want to consider Kelty's Yukon model of backpack. It is about 3000 cu. in. and has a frame that telescopes so it can be adjusted to a person's height. A lot of young scouts use this model since it can grow with them over the years. My son has one and it seems to be of solid construction and accomodates a hydration system. Again, depending on what you need to carry, it might be overkill.

We are going to try something new this year. In Cubs, we always did the school night recruiting. In our school system, they have an open house the day before school starts for kids and parents to meet their new teacher, fund their lunch ticket, buy school t-shirts, join PTA, etc. The school always allows us to sit up a table and recruit. Last year, we signed up over 30 Cubs as a result. Now that we have started a new Troop, we are going to try the same thing and see how it works. We will go back to the elementary school and set up a table next to our old Pack's table and try to recruit 6th graders while they recruit the younger boys. We are not sure what kind of results we will get, but "nothing ventured, nothing gained'. Actually, we will have different leaders doing this at 3 different schools all on the same night. Another idea we have toyed with is a recruitment lock-in. We could have a cook out to start things off and then do some skills such as lashings or knots and build a small project. When it starts to get dark, we would move inside for movies, games, snacks, etc. Let the boys plan the activities so you know it will be things that are attractive to them. The price of admission for the lock-in is to bring one non-scouting friend with you.

It is prohibited.....period. Read the Guide to Safe Scouting.