SR540Beaver

My experience is that it takes everyone working together to grow scouting in a community. The district I'm in always leads the way for all of our other districts. That comes from the enthusiasm of the leadership from the disrtict folks all the way to the individual unit leaders. We have a pretty active group of district scouters and an active unit commissioner staff. We have pretty good attendance at roundtable each month. If Scout units don't know the Cub units and vice versa, it is the unit leaders own fault. When my son was a Webelos i and a Webelos II, he had four opportunities to camp and visit with different troops. Two Camporees and two Webelos Woods. We coordinated with a different Troop each time. There was a lot of competition because the units we had already visited/camped with would ask us to go with them again. We had an obligation to show our boys the different troops so they could make an informed decision. We crossed our entire Webelos den over to two troops. The Webelos den the prior year crossed over a large percentage of their boys to two entirely different troops than our boys. The troops can not depend on using us as a feeded pack. They have to work to get our boys. We can't assume that our boys will just cross over unless we give them a variety of flavors of different troops. The district encourages the interaction of packs/troops to facilitate retention of Cubs to Scouts. It is working for us. Do we have some Troops that are teetering on the verge of collapse? Sure. Is it due to the fact that we have a good number of troops in the area or some fault of the district and professionals? No! It is because of poor leadership in the individual unti and a bad program. Each of our units has a unit commissioner and district support if they are only willing to accept it. Troop size is dependent strictly on the unit itself. Off of the top of my head, I can think of 6 units within 5 miles of my house. Some are small, some are large. But their are literally thousands of scouting age boys in that 5 mile radius. If anything, we don't have enough units for our potential. If everyone did what my son and I are currently doing (working hard to recruit my son's best friend), you could double you troop size overnight.

FOG, Face it, your resposibility is to deliver the promise within your troop and to grow your troop. The DE's job is to grow more units who hopefully will concentrate on delivering the promise and growing their unit. Merging units is a step backwards. Each of the two units thinking of merging need to be concentrating on growing their program. It is hard enough work to keep up with one unit as opposed to looking over at the other guys plate to see what he has. If units are doing the job of recruiting new boys and Webelos, why should they need to concern themselves with what the "competition" is doing. If the Webelos den leader is doing their job, they have provided their boys with a look at many of the options out there. That is what we did and we had 100% cross over. The boy gets a look at the troop with 40 AND the troop with 10. Likewise, tThe troops promoted themselves to the various dens. I want my DE out there developing new units for even more boys. It is his job and I have no need to interfere. Meanwhile, I am doing my job so he doesn't have to worry about another failing troop. BW is spot on whether you like it or not.

And all this time I thought Sesame Street's Oscar the Grouch was the one who designed the uniform pants in an effort to make everyone else grumpy. Live and learn.

Hmmmm, note to self.....gotta get busy on the rest of my tickets! Congrats! Beavers rule, all others drool!

I believe our Troop had about 15 to 20 boys registered and about 10 to 12 active when we joined last month. My sons Webelos den of 5 crossed over 4 boys to our Troop and 1 to another Troop. Our Troop also picked up 2 boys from another Pack and my son's best friend is joining next week. So we have 7 brand new scouts. Our Troop quit putting much into recruiting for some reason in the last few years. Most of their scouts were 15 to 17 years of age. I think it finally dawned on them that the troop was going to become non-existant once the boys aged out. Right now we are having to deal with having a group of 11 and 12 year olds and another group of 16 and 17 year olds with nothing inbetween. Our goal is to try to bring in around 6 to 8 boys per year and get an even age spread in coming years. We would like to follow BP's model of 32 scouts. Of course if we ended up with 64 boys, we wouldn't be upset with it! We have at least a couple of "super" troops in our area that run over 100 boys. We have many more that are probably under 20 boys. From my discussions with other Scouters, they all seem to equally love the program as do their scouts. I think as long as you have a good program and you don't just have 4 or 5 scouts, the boys don't really care how large they are. I'd venture a guess that one of the reasons there are so many small troops is because of the number of charter organizations that want a scouting program. If you only had one or two organizations in a city of 100,000 that were willing to be charters, they could grow pretty large. If you have 100 organizations, the boys will be spread out and most troops will be smaller.

NJ, I have to hand it to our old Cubmaster. I've never seen the man at a Scouting event when he was not in a full uniform. However, when new boys joined as Cubs, he told the parents that they really needed a shirt, but pants were optional. I don't understand why so many Scouters weenie out on scout pants. But I agree that the bad habit is set in Cubs and carried on into Scouts. Hey, if they were not important in Cubs, why should they be important now? Too many people view Cubs as "just" Cubs. It is fun and games, nothing serious. This is when they are the most impressionable and pliable. Now is the time to get them into good habits. I was guilty of not buying my son scout pants when he was a Cud because he would have been the only boy in the Pack who had them or wore them. I did buy him a pair for cross over and have really pushed him to wear them to his Troop meetings. It does help that the old man wears a complete uniform to everything, but he does offer some resistance. It does not help that our SPL usually wears wind pants and one of the former PL's walks around with his shirt tail hanging out all the time. In short, I'd really like to see Cub leaders setting an example of wearing a full uniform and encouraging the Cubs to do the same. By the time they cross over, hopefully a pattern would be established.

I guess turnabout is fair play. Our SM is DoD and was sent to Iraq last fall. We had to do without him until he returned last week.

Buffalo, True enough. The fundraiser we just completed had another person coordinating it and collecting the money. Just from my limited knowledge and experience in this troop, I don't think the Treasurer would welcome an assistant. She accused the Committee Chair of being controlling. Yet it was the Treasurer who made the comment (before finally exploding) that she was told when she took this job that she could do it however she wanted. In other words....I have the power and you don't. When I graciously extend the coutesy of telling you HOW it is going to be, you rubber stamp it and let ME have MY way. I have since learned that this is the second time she has stated she is quitting when someone suggested something different than her way. Being new, I don't think I've gotten in the Troop e-mail loop yet. I found out thru the grapevine last night that the SM is requesting a specially called Committee meeting to discuss boy led troops, the responsibilites of the committe and then based on how those discussions go; a third topic might be discussed. Folks reading between the lines interpret that to mean that if he and his wife don't hear what they want to hear, they will leave. That is really sad because everything I've ever heard inside and outside this Troop is that the SM is highly regarded as an SM. I understand that he has a duty to defend his wife. In mu opinion, her actions are not really defendable. But she has placed him between a rock and a hard place. I don't think anyone wants to lose him, but may have no choice. The committee can not just let her tantrum go unnoticed. Another piece of hearsay I heard is that the SM believes so totally in the boy led method that while he thinks the committee has it's place; he often thinks it can get in the way and should operate in a limited capacity. So I don't know, maybe he and his wife are both of the mind that the committe is a formality and is there to rubber stamp their decisions. All I know is that the troop has a group of great kids and dedicated parents who enjoy working together. Everyone except the Treasurer.

eisley, Oh no no no no no! I am still currently the Committee Chair and Webelos Den Leader (the leader quit mid-term and no one would step up for my son's old Pack and an ASM in the Troop. I am an ASM for our Council's Jamboree contingent and currently doing recruitment for that. Outside of Scouting, I am the Maintenance Chair on my Home Owners Association's Board of Directors. I'm also an employee, husband and dad. I'm not adding Treasurer to my hobbies any time soon.

I've worked for the same guy off and on for the last 23 years. While I can't get a whole day off without taking it as vacation, he has always been lenient with all of his employees needing to leave early on occasion. As long as it isn't expected or abused, he is more than willing to accommodate us. I do on occasion take a half day off the day of a campout so I can get home, load the truck, change clothes and be at the meeting place on time. I get off work at 5 PM and we usually leave for campouts at 5:30 PM. It takes me at least 35 minutes to get home for work, so I have to leave early if I don't want to drive alone and hunt for our campsite.

I can't really give you much more detail than I have. As I said, my son and I are two days short of a month being with the troop. The Committee Chair and her son just crossed over back in November. So whatever has caused the Treasurer to dislike the Chair must have happened in that short time frame. I'm not in a position to take sides, but I will say that everything I know of the Chair is good. Her husband is one of our ASM's and he is the District Training Chair. They are both Unit Commisioners. I first met them when I took NLE when I was with my son's Pack. She was in my Wood Badge course. We went with them to Webelos Woods last fall. They are both very devoted to scouting and and to a boy led unit. The Chair's husband served as the acting SM for our Troop while our SM was in Iraq. Last night was his first back with the Troop. I agree that the SM's wife shouldn't be the Committee Chair or Treasurer. Sometimes in real life it is unavoidable if you can't get other people to step up. The SM was with the boys when the "show" took place. But like I said, there was only a 3/8" wood wall between us and the boys; so he heard her explode. My son walked to the truck with me asking what in the world happened in there? I honestly have no idea what this woman's problem is. It is purely conjecture on my part, but I think maybe several factors are contributing to it. Her husband was in a war zone with the DoD. He has been the SM for a number of years. The Committee Chair and acting ASM "ascended" to "power" immediately upon arriving in the troop. In fact, they crossed their son over early because no one would step up to be acting SM and he was asked to. So they left their Pack early to come help. I get the feeling that the Treasurer liked their positions of authority, she seems to be a controlling person who does not like to be questioned and she felt threatened by the "change" in leadership. Besides myself, there were two other new leaders from our old Pack who had crossed over a month ago. I think it is too much change for her to handle. Again, that is me reading between the lines with little to no history to actually go on. But I'm a fairly perceptive person. Now a little history on me. I've worked in the banking/savings & loan/credit union industry for almost 25 years. I've dealt with credit unions that had two part time employees up to huge regional banks with 10's of thousands of employees. The type of account that charges you for deposited items is the kind that a Wal-Mart has. They are charged based on volume. When you are depositing 10's of thousands of checks from a single store on a daily basis, the bank charges you based on volume. You don't give a Troop this kind of account. I personally know the man who owns the bank where our Troop account is at. I've got queries into some of his folks to find out what our options are for switching our account. The bank that I am currently contracted to gave me a free acount for my son's baseball team a few years ago. I know it can be done.

FOG, I'll take that bet.

My son and I are new to our Troop. Only been there for a month. I attended my first Troop Committee meeting last night. Mon oh man, what a doozey! My experinece with the Troop is that the adults like each other, are committed to the program and play well together. The meeting went very well......until the treasurer's report. I had never seen her before. She was high strung, defensive and paranoid. She had a recommendation to the committe regarding our fundraising money collection. Instead of people writing checks to the Troop, she wanted people to write checks to the parents of the Scout. The parents could deposit the checks into their personal account and write the troop a single check. Her reasoning was two fold. Out of all the checks we had taken in, one bounced. It cleared the second time the bank tran it thru, but we were saddled with a fee from the bank. She wanted to lessen the financial exposure to the Troop by having the parents assume it. The other reason was that the Troop account is a business type account wit hthe bank and they charge us .05 cents per deposited item. If we deposited 15 checks instead of 300 checks, we could reduce our charges. As you can imagine, there was discussion held on the topic. Not heated, not ugly. Just discussion. Discussion like, we are a non-profit organization, why do we have a business account with those kinds of charges? Won't writing a check to an individual keep some people from buying from a boy because of different scams they have heard of? Questions like that. She claims that she has talked to the bank about switching to a different kind of account and they told her that she has the right type of account. Also, she likes the bank, they are convenient, give good service and therefore does not want to switch to another bank. As far as having people write checks to the parents, that is what she had experienced in Girl Scouts and it worked fine and didn't hurt sales. In the midst of the discussion, she jumped up, knocking her chair over, picked up her notebooks and money bags and threw them across the table at the Chairman. She proceeded to scream at the Chairman about how she was a coniving, controlling snot, she had had enough and she quit. She then said how since the Chairman had taken the position, she hated the troop and was calling the Council to report her. I'm sad to say that our new Unit Commisioner was there for a visit and witnessed the whole thing. It was ugly. The worst part was that the boys were meeting about 10 feet away from us with just a 3/8" folding/expanding wooden wall stretched between us. Of course, they heard the whole thing. To make matters worse, the Treasurer is the Scoutmaster's wife and SPL's mother. I probably didn't need to provide so much history as it really has nothing to do with my questions.....other than to give context to the questions. They are: What "type" of checking account does you unit have? Do you require people to write checks to the Scouts parents or allow them to write them to the Troop?

Seb, The Current BSA handbook says that the "field uniform" is (and I'm paraphrasing) for meetings and such. The BSA allows for an "activity" uniform which is any BSA or troop t-shirt and BSA pants. Still, the pants are not always appropriate for all activities. That is when the scout where whatever is appropriate. Just out of curiosity, what is your Scouting organization called in Malta and do they have a website?

Seb, I fear that what you said is the way many people look at the uniform in Scouting.....that it is second to other parts of Scouting. Actually it is not. It is one of the methods of Scouting and is equal to all of the other methods. Again, this goes back to people picking and choosing which parts of Scouts they want to use. Either it IS Scouting or it AIN'T Scouting. We agree to deliver the program as it is laid down by BSA. While there are no BSA police that are going to fine you for picking and choosing, if you are not following the program; then you are not teaching and following Scouting. You are adding to or taking away from the program. In either case, you are not delivering the program as defined. If league rules say you can't wear metal cleats, you'd better not wear metal cleats. If league rules say you can't steal bases, you'd better not steal bases. If league rules say you must wear a cup, you'd better wear a cup. You can't decide that a ball that tips a players club is a caught ball or that a player is safe when a pop fly is caught.

FOG, What do you think would happen if A-Rod showed up for his first Yankees game wearing a Yankees jersey and Rangers pants? LOL We had a boy join our old Pack and his Mom requested financial assistance for his joining fee. By all appearances, they don't seem to have much money. One night after a den meeting I walked out into the parking lot and saw a very sharp looking new Mustang. Who was driving it? You guess!

Let me clarify one point. Once the scout is in the field, I think he should dress appropriately for the activity. The uniform is not designed for canoeing or rappeling. For BOR's, COH's, meetings, travel, camp ceremonies and campfires, I think a full uniform should be worn.

Blaze, The uniform is not required by BSA policy. Bob is correct in that scouts are requested to wear as complete a uniform and as correctly as they can. The idea of the uniform is to build a sense of belonging to a group and the hope is that a boy will wear it out of choice rather than force. You say that boys would quit if they were made to wear the complete uniform. Hogwash! My son played baseball, basketball and took Tae Kwon Do. All REQUIRED a uniform. There were elements of the uniform that the boys didn't like. Some boys disliked wearing hats, but they knew they had better not show up for a ball game without it on their head or they'd sit on the bench. They also knew they had better wear the hat turned the right way. If the uniform was a blue jersy and white pants, they had better not show up in black pants. The uniform identified them with the team. They had pride in their team. Boy's didn't quit the sports team because the coach preached at them about proper uniforming and taking pride in it. It was not an option, it was required. The scout uniform is expensive, but not as pricey as sports uniforms. I'd easily spend $150 a year on his baseball uniforms. I'm getting a break in scouting. I for one wish the BSA did require full uniforming. Even though they were forced to wear a complete uniform correctly in sports, they eventually took pride in wearing it and chose to in the long run. I for one am tired of seeing kids wearing sweat pants, wind pants and baggy jeans with their uniform shirt when I know good and well that they can afford uniform pants.

Well I didn't win anything, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express and I did save a bundle by switching my car insurance to Geico. Congrats to both of you! Keep up the good work!

I have no idea how the BSA chose popcorn as it's officially sponsered annual fundraiser. In my opinion, it is a little overpriced. But what fundraiser isn't to some degree. Yes, you can still buy a tin of unpopped popcorn. There are also 4 or 5 different flavors of microwave popcorn and several options of tins of prepopped popcorn. You can do a "show and sell" where you order boxes of the various types and sell it to the public in front of a Wal-Mart or some other type store or event. Then there is the door to door order type of sale. You can do one or the other or both. My son (as a Cub) sold over $450.00 just in our neighborhood this past fall. The high sales went to another kid in his den who sold over $1500 for the second year in a row. The biggest problem with any fundraiser is getting the parents to support it and the boys to participate. Our Pack sales were so low this past fall that we had to cut back on Blue and Gold and just have cake and ice cream and are doing a second fundraiser. We had some boys who didn't even attempt to sell any popcorn. Now that my son is a Boy Scout and some of the money goes directly into his "account", he had a greater incentive for raising funds. He was second in sells in his troop with over $700 in sausage sales and walked into the troop as a new scout with almost $150 in his account.

Willy, Nothing is stopping you from starting a new troop. Scouting always needs new growth. Give the boys in your town an alternative. Competition is a good thing. One of my Woodbadge patrol members had some major problems in his son's troop. He addressed them and was shut down. So he decided to take his son and placed ads in the local newspaper seeking boys who wanted to join the Boy Scouts. He didn't "steal" from his old troop. When he got the required five boys, he started a new troop. He is a super guy and a great scouter. I have no doubt that his troop will surpass the old troop in short order. But, keep in mind that G2SS is not optional. If you are urging your unit to ignore BSA policy, you are in the wrong. Much of the safety factor is a direct results of people's willingness to sue anybody for anything these days. When you can retire on a settlement for spilling your own cup of McDonald's hot coffee in your own lap, it is only prudent to protect yourself with safety rules. Can you imagine how long BSA would exist if they got sued everytime a Scoutmaster allowed kids to climb and rappel without helmets, proper equipment or training and the kid got hurt? The rules exist to protect Scouting as much as it does to protect the boys.

Just my two cents. If you have a scout who is being totally disruptive, do you exclude him from the campout or do you cancel the whole campout for everyone? I think the problem child should have been banned and the rest of us be able to camp. Why should we all have been penalized?

Pack Committee Chair Assistant Scoutmaster Assistant Scoutmaster - 2005 Jamboree Council Contingent Finishing out a lost leaders term as Webelos II Den Leader

Proud Eagle, Perhaps you don't recall the rumors put out by Bush's campaign when it came down to a race between Bush and McCain during the primaries. McCain was targeted with false stories such as being a stoolie for his captors in the Hanoi Hilton; that he fathered a black daughter out of wedlock (a reference to McCain's adopted Bangladeshi daughter); Cindy McCain's drug "abuse"; and even that McCain was homosexual. True, McCain did not have the political machine or the money that Bush had and that coupled with dirty politics did him in. Bush was hand picked by a very elite and powerful group of people to be groomed for the Presidency. They succeeded in winning him the nomination. Don't take my comments to be Bush bashing. These kind of things happen in political races. I'm just calling a spade a spade from my perspective.

Oh yeah, there is thought out there in some conservative circles that Cheney's connections to Haliburton has become a liability to the ticket. Don't be surprised if he drops out at a later date.