SR540Beaver

OGE, I like your Dad's taste in music!

Ed, Patrols are one of the methods of Scouting. Would it be OK to run a troop with no patrols? Nowhere does it say that patrols are required. Outdoors is also a method of Scouting. Would it be OK to do all of your camping in RV's? Nowhere does it say that you have to tent camp. Is doing any scouting method half way OK? Some boys and some troops come from meager means and buying the full uniform can be a hardship. A fundraiser takes care of that easily. Most boys object to a full uniform because it is "geeky". That is no excuse for not wearing it. While wearing the uniform is not a requirement, you are letting them slide by which is comparable to letting them do less requirements for advancement.

scoutingagain, The sad fact is that many charter organizations simply provide a place for a unit to meet and that is the extent of their involvement with scouting. They provide a COR who rubberstamps registration forms and decisions made by the unit. While COR training is provided, our district training chair told me this weekend that he had no one show up for the last COR training and has only trained two COR's in the last year. There are some charters who are very involved with their unit, but from my experience and discussions with other scouters, it is the exception, not the rule. It would appear that the COR's know less about scouting than the people at the unit, district or council level, yet have more input. Go figure.

Trail Pounder, Considering the number of Presidents we have had in over 200 hundred years, we would soon be approaching an average of one federal holiday per week in addition to all of the other holidays we observe. Now, I have no problem with having a four day work week and a three day weekend, but I don't think industry would care too much for it. Therefore, we do have a holiday that honors ALL Presidents. It is called President's Day and it is the 3rd Monday in February.

I am always amazed at the stupidity or apathy of some parents. I'm no prude by a long shot, but I do know what is and is not age appropriate and there are certain standards that we maintain in our home. My son is only 11 and so far we have been fortunate to not have him rebel against our rules. We do make an honest effort to explain why we have the rules we do and never resort to "because we said so". My son comes home all the time telling me about 8 and 9 year old kids he knows who get to watch R rated movies with their parents. He knows kids who get to buy and play video games rated Teen or Mature. He had one scout friend (when they were Webelos) who came to spend the night and brought two Austin Powers movies with him. They never got around to asking to watch them. The answer would have been NO. The Eagle Trail instructor at summer camp had to ask for adults from our troop to come to class to supervise three of our new scouts due to language and respect issues. They would not be allowed to return to class unless we came with them. It is far beyond me to understand why some parents think it is OK to expose their own children to behavior and influences that there children are not ready for. It is their business if they want to do that, but my son will not be allowed to participate. So far, he polices himself and won't participate on his own and doesn't even ask to or whine about it. I like to think that we are raising him correctly. OK, I'm thru with this soapbox. Anyone else want it?

Ed, Uniforming is another one of those things like smoking that seems to be open to interpretation. I had an interesting discussion with a scouter this weekend about uniforms. His take is that they are required for certain functions and that the "no uniform required" is an allowance for new scouts or scouts from financially challenged families. His take is that any unit worth it's salt will make sure that a full uniform is made available to any and every scout thru either an "experienced" uniform closet, a charitable contribution or fundraising. BSA does expect the boy to make an effort to pay his own way and the uniform is one of the items mentioned. His view is that even though national makes a financial allowance for not owning a uniform, the unit should make sure that is not an issue. If they do that, then they can require the scout to be in uniform. I found it to be an interesting take on the subject. Someone else mentioned it above, but one of the largest and most successful units in our area also has a boy decided policy of sending scouts home from meetings if they show up in an incomplete uniform. With over 100 scouts, it does not seem to be a problem for them.

Wellllll, according to my wife I'm perfect and I know EVERYTHING!!! No wait......she says I THINK I'm perfect and know everything. And that is on every subject, not just Scouting. But them you can't trust what she says. She knows nothing.

BW, Yes, yes, yes.....I already know and understand the process. Regardless, peolpe are selected for these committees in part because it is believed that they are "representative" of Scouts and Scouters throughout the organization. While I would feel proud if I were selected to serve on a committee, I would also be humbled by it. My desire would not be to get my licks in for all the things I think should be done. A scout is helpful to others. My desire would be to talk to others in scouting and carry their ideas and concerns along with mine. Since I can't talk to everyone, it would be useful if they knew how to get hold of me if they wished to.

foto, I would assume under your scenario that you went into the scout shop, ordered the items, paid for them in advance and had them delivered to your home. There is no way on Scoutstuff.org to pay for items or shipping unless there is a COD option I missed. The only way I can see that you can order over the internet is to have it delivered to the scout shop for pick up and payment. What am I missing?

scoutldr, JUST SAY NO! I am a people pleaser and it is hard for me to say no, but I learned how to do it eventually. I always joke that the "one hour a week" saying refers to how much time you get to spend at home. In our troop, the SM is the district trainer, a Wood Badge staffer and a unit commisioner. Our CC is his wife and she is a trainer and a unit commissioner too. My fellow ASM was a Cubmaster (ended in May), a trainer, a WB staffer, a unit commissioner and a Jamboree ASM. I was the Cub CC (ended in May too), an ASM and a Jamboree ASM. Sometimes I feel guilty that I don't do as much as them; but on the other hand, sometimes I think they are nuts for doing everything they do. All of the jobs are necessary, but there has to be a better way to get things done. I feel for you and wish I had a better answer other than "just say NO!"

I have nothing against doing a little leg work and trying to find out who these people are. However, most councils have newsletters and websites. Would it kill them to list the people who are "representing" us so we could have access to them. I vote for my Congressman. I'd sure hate to think that there is some nameless, faceless man sitting in DC "representing" ME without my knowledge or approval.

Unit leaders shouldn't be commissioners? And where do you find these mythical creatures who will fill those roles instead of unit leaders? Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the idea, I just don't find it very practical. A year ago, many of the units in our district didn't even know what a unit commissioner was....they had never seen one. The district decided that needed changing. There has been a big big push to assign each unit a commissioner and for them to be active. So far the plan has been successful and information is flowing better and units are getting district support thru their UC. However, there are not scores of veteran scouters (non-unit) standing in the wings just waiting to be UC's. Most of the veteran's (son's aged out and no longer active in a unit) are already working at the district and council level. For prying, a pry bar should be used. If you don't have one and can't get one, you tend to end up using a big screwdriver or claw hammer. Not the best, but it gets the job done.

Boys like to burn things and a weekend long campfire is the perfect excuse. Back on our February campout, we were at a site that had a pretty good store of fire wood. It was cold and both patrols and the adults all had fires in their area. However, one of the patrols threw every scrap of firewood in their store on their fire once they had it going. Their metal fire ring was practically glowing. An hour later they are complaining about not having firewood and having to scrounge thru the brush. The rest of us threw a piece on when the fire needed it. We got to tell them the difference between an Indian fire and a white man's fire. I'm sure most of you have heard it; but if you have not, I'll tell it. The Indian builds a small fire, sits close to it, wraps his blanket around his shoulders and opens it to the fire to soak in the warmth. The white man builds a big fire and stays far away because of the intense heat. He then stands and does the fire dance. Since he is so far away, only one side will get warm. He is continually turning from facing forward to facing backwards to heat himself. We built Indian fires. The one patrol built a white man's fire.

Ed, Do your boys wear purple basketball shorts and flip flops with their shirts and neckerchiefs to their BOR's and COH's?

Two is the max! Last fall, four of our Webelos went to Webelos Woods with a Troop. One of the Cub leaders decided to bring a cabin tent for them all to sleep in. Never again! The experience almost soured my son on staying in scouting and crossing over to the same Troop with his Webelos buddies. They were rowdy and spent much of the weekend hanging out in the tent. They would wrestle inside the tent. They would stay up and get loud at night. Any time you have more than two, someone is going to be the odd man out. That weekend it was my son. While wrestling, they would grab stuff and throw it around the tent. Being boys, they lived like pigs. My son couldn't find half his gear until they packed up to go home. While he would be changing clothes, they would drop the windows on the tents and yell for everyone to look. My son waas thouroughly disgusted by the time the trip was over. It was your basic disaster. He did stay in scouting and he did cross over to a Troop with the boys. Time has deminished the problems of that one campout for him. But we all vowed that from now on, we will never ever allow more than two in a tent unless there is an emergency situation for sleeping quarters.

BW got it right. Sadly, many CO's and COR's are very inactive....even when asked to be active. When I was our Pack Committee Chair, I was recruited by our Cubmaster. I told him I wanted to register as an Assistant Den Leader and he said what we really needed was a CC. At the time he was functioning as the Cubmaster, treasurer and CC. He certainly didn't want all of those jobs, but had trouble getting anyone to step up to the jobs. He jumped at my offer to help. I think many positions get filled that way. But if you do it by the book (the preferred method), the COR is responsible for filling the CC position.

scoutingagain, My only question was did he have a matching tie tack to go with his nose stud?

The problem is not just one of scouts not knowing much about duty to God. I'd venture to say that there are a proportional number of scouters doing BOR's that are in the same boat.

Unfortunately, the sales lady is correct. A lot of Scouts (Cub and Boy) don't wear a complete uniform. That is no excuse for not selling them however. At summer camp this year, there was ONE single solitary troop that had and wore complete uniforms to dinner. The rest were in shirts or worse. Some had them untucked, some had them unbuttoned and some had them on with basketball shorts. We wouldn't leave our camp until they were tucked and buttoned......with much grumbling. The one problem with ordering from National is that you can't actually purchase anything from them and have it delivered to you. You place the order and they deliver it to your scout shop where you have to go pick it up and pay for it. At least that is what they did to me.

Eagle54, An SM lounge? With air-conditioning? Where? I'll be lobbying our boys to come to your camp next year! I spent our week at camp either soaked with rain or soaked with sweat. BTW, our Trail to Eagle class was outstanding at our camp. The young man who led the class was 21 and had taught the class for several years. He was very knowledgable and well liked by the boys and adults. Three adults from our troop spent time monitoring the class and even assisted when asked. We were more pleased with this class than many of the merit badge classes.

We've used the dutch oven lid as a griddle many times on top of a coleman stove. If you turn the lid until the handle fits between the pot supports over the burner, it will be flat and stable.

Eamonn, I spent my very first week at scout camp last week. The food wasn't bad, but it didn't compare to Cub resident camp's quality. Some of the things I saw that were wrong can be attributed to it being the first week of camp. Hopefully they really did fix the problems of last week for the remaining five weeks. One of the "problems" I saw was with the camp staff. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they were carrying out their duties. However, I saw a lot of staffers wandering the camp. We had one who spent two evening in our camp site playing cards with some of our older boys. Perhaps he had finished his duties for the day. The leader of the Eagle Trail class asked for adult participation with his class. Our troop sent three adults and we assisted with fire building, lashings, flag ceremonies, etc. One of our scouters in the military and is an EMT and a certified battlefield medic. He presented a dynamite first aid presentation for over an hour. While we adults were assisting this leader, I noticed about four other staffers sitting under a canopy and wandering in and out of the class area. Hey, they were getting paid and we were doing the work for them! What gives? The leader did a superb job. His help was dead weight. My son took the Fly Fishing merit badge course and we found out after the second day that the staffer leading that class was playing cards with the boys during class. We took care of that problem quickly. Overall, things went well for the first week of camp. I do think we either had too large of a staff or the staff just wasn't putting forth as much effort as I think they should. As far as supplies and equipment. Things seemed to be in fair order. The one problem with supplies seemed to be in the first aid office. Our EMT was summoned a few times when the gent running it had to leave camp for his own health reasons. The office was a mess and dirty. Our guy bleached the whole place while he was there. He showed me the small amount of supplies they had on hand. It was supposed to last for 6 weeks of camp. He talked to the camp director who infomed him that he was only budgeted $200 for first aid supplies. He instead spent $400. I'm guessing that they are down to ripping up t-shirts from the trading post for bandages by now. We have a good number of scouters in the medical field who probably could have scrounged supplies if someone at council would have just put out the word.

Ed, I believe as you do. That being said, it is a "fact" for me because I accept it based purely on faith. It can not be proven regardless of how strongly I believe it. The world will never accept your view as "fact" like they will believe something that can be proven empirically. While it may be a fact to YOU, it really is a matter of faith, not fact.

Hunt, I believe the value is one of believing in something bigger than you. A lot is made of this part of the oath and law, but when have you ever seen this discussed in great detail between the unit leaders and the boys? There are those units that practice a scout's own service and there are those units that say grace at meals and there are those units that urge boys to earn their religious emblem. There are those units that do not. I'd like to see my unit do these things more often, but they don't. How many people have you run across in life that tell you they believe in "God", but practice absolutely no form religion? I've met many. I'd dare say that I've run across more scouts who are not active in any religion than I have who do. But they all seem to believe in "God". Every religion believes that they are the true religion. For every person that you believe worships a false god, they in turn believe YOU are worshiping a false god too. All scouting asks is that you believe in something bigger than yourself and you do your duty to that faith. Why? Because it makes the world a better place for everyone and it keeps you from thinking the world revolves around you. Scouting seeks to teach boys to be men of character, ethical and to serve others. Religious service helps to strengthen those values, whether it is service to God, Jehovah, Allah, nature or the Great Spirit in the Sky.

As far back as 1915, there were some who believed in respecting the beliefs of others. In my opinion, you can interchange the terms convictions and beliefs. Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe. http://ecommunity.uml.edu/scouting26/sctlaw/chpxviii.html The Scout Law in Practice by Arthur A. Carey, copyright 1915, by Little Brown and Company, Boston MA Foreward In "The Scout Law in Practice" Mr. Carey has made a distinct contribution to the cause of Scouting by making available to Scout leaders his exposition of the Scout Oath and Law. His keen interest in the character development of boys, his active participation in Scouting in this country during the last five years, and the things for which he stands, make his interpretation a valuable aid to all interested in the development of boys' character. James E West Chief Scout Executive The Boy Scouts of America Chapter XVIII A Scout is Reverent "A scout is reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful to his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." It is better to go through life looking up to things that we love and respect, because they are better than ourselves, than to go through life looking down upon ideas and people as inferior to ourselves. This is a statement of two extremes, and almost every one's outlook lies somewhere between them. When we go through life with the habit of respect for wise ideas and good people, we do it because we feel the value of the wise ideas that make good people strong and reliable. It is not that we want to curry favor with these people, or that we want them to think well of us, so much as it is that we lov the effect of strength and happiness that an upright spirit brings with it, and we long to get possession of their secret for ourselves. If we are earnest and persistent in this matter, we shall find out that such strong people are much the same as we are, except for the fact that they have done more work in conquering their selfish tendencies, and so have acquired a greater power in the service of what is good. Men of all religions believe that God is good and the source of all good in human life, an that we are all free to receive goodness from Him just in proportion as we conquer evil and obey His laws. When, therefore, we reverence the good in other people and try our best to live up to it ourselves, we are reverencing God, for obedience is the first point of reverence. In the same way, although it may be expressed somewhat differently, men of all religions believe that God is the All-true and wise, as well as the All-good, and that all the pure truth in human minds comes from Him. When, therefore, we have respect for the truth and a love for seeing things just as they are in His sight, we are respecting and revering His own Spirit. And when, seeing the truth, and giving up our own prejudices for the sake of it, we work with all our might to carry it out in obedience to His laws, we are living what is called a spiritual life, because "God is a spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth." Men who love what is the right can always work together in useful ways and do good work, without regard to the particular and detailed opinions which they associate with their own religion; and it seems unreasonable to expect every one to have the same ideas or opinions about such matters. Men of all the different Christian sects and churches, and of all the other forms of religious belief, may differ from one another honestly in matters of opinion, and yet work together in a common spirit of obedience to God and His law. In the old days, it was considered right to try and force your beliefs on other people by threats and persecutions; but, as people have learned, through their own mistakes, to respect the sincere and honest convictions of those who differ from them, this mutual respect has become more and more an essential part of most religions, and the old ideas of domineering intolerance have very much diminished. It has been found out that religion flourishes most where intolerance does not exist at all. Loyalty to that form of religion from which we receive the most help to keep us straight is an important duty under the scout law, and it is a violation of that law to try and proselytize, or draw off any one from his own church or peculiar form of religious observance. There is room for all honest and sincere religious beliefs in the Boy Scout Organization, and it is recommended that troops be formed in connection with churches, as well as other organizations, under the direction of the parish priest or minister, with such spiritual advisers and under such conditions as they may provide. There is no room in the Boy Scout Organization, however, for the spirit of intolerance which does not recognize the right of every man to his own convictions in matters of religion, and therefore we should exercise the greatest care and consideration in not doing or saying anything which might hurt the feelings of other people in matters which to them are sacred. When we go through life looking out for things that are better than we are, and act from their influence as fast as we recognize and appreciate their goodness and beauty, we ourselves are constantly growing toward that good, as we bravely put away the weak and evil things that become more clear to us by contrast; when, on the other hand, we are absorbed by a sense of our own superiority, or, in other words, "suffer the swelled head," we shut out from our minds the possibility of reverence and form the habit of contempt in its place. As has been said before, there is nothing more belittling and destructive in the world than the habit of contempt; when much indulged in, it ends by acting like a boomerang, and the scoffer finds himself ultimately discouraged and forlorn. For contempt, like other an d more obvious vices, ends by losing all its attractions and finally turning on itself. Reverence toward God and everything that is good corresponds, in a way, to courtesy toward all people whom God has placed within our reach. It was said in the chapter on " A Scout is Courteous" that true courtesy brings with it a cheerful happiness that combines with the dignity of service. We may say in the same way that reverence brings with it a deep and lasting joy associated with appreciation and gratitude for all the great and lovely things of life.