skeptic

If you have not yet read this facinating and well researched book by David Scott, I highly recommend you do. While it certainly delves into scouting as a movement, it goes further in that it points out the reason Scouting at its best is so important to our society as a whole. One really interesting aspect is the discussion throughout of the struggles with how to deal with the Black youth, especially in the first few decades. The fact that there were Aftrican American scouts as early as 1911, and troops in the South in the twenties and on, is documented. It also discusses the assimilation of other groups of minorities and specially challenged. While NOT getting into the over the top histrionics, it even notes the recent change in youth membership as a positive move. The quotes from the various presidents, while containing similar comments to some extent, all have at least one or two that indicate just how important they all appear to have found or find the overall program, both for youth and for the country. What is particularly encouraging, yet a bit scary, is the reasons the basic program is seen as so important by them all; that our youth are way too prone to being preyed on by less than positive elements, and that they desparately need guidance in determining right from wrong for themselves, their families, and society as a whole. I realize that there will be those that find any book that is predominantly pro Scouting to be somehow misdirected or naive. But, if we simply look at the bare basics of the foundation, the Oath and Law, as well as the added Outdoor Code/Leave No Trace, and try and distance ourselves from the overly hyped political issues, it is STILL a sound and worthy program. JMHO of course.

It seems to me that all serious discussion of religion or the religious is a philosophical discussion. Most issues arrise when the discussion stops being a discussion, instead becoming one upmanship or I know better than you or "mine" is superior to yours and so on. In scouting, the religious element is supposed to be relegated to the scout and his family. As such, we as leaders should not be intruding on that directly. Thus, we should not respond negatively to a scout's lack of a concrete religious or spiritual understanding when we breach the subject in general. Most scouts certainly have not yet reached the point of absolute denial, even if they may state something along those lines. This too comes from the family, or is a result of family rebellion. Just like we should not treat the scout as a fully developed adult in other areas of education or mental and physical maturity, we should not expect them to have arrived at their absolute spiritual destination. Most of us, even as adults, have changed direction to some extent over our lives, sometimes drastically. Absolutes are seldom that. They are prone to change, especially if they are of the ephemeral nature. But even what we perceive as unchangeable in the natural world usually does change, if only imperceptually.

Am actually a bit familiar with that area. My pen friend lived in Chatteris and worked in the library in Ely way back in the 60's. When I visited in 1967 on leave from Germany, I spent a week with her family and got the grand tour. Enjoy and good "tapping".

Obviously, the best way for a group prayer before meals, or whatever situation, would be to simply ask the group to silently consider their blessings in their own manner and after a short pause say thank you. Then everyone that chooses to actually say grace or something has their moment, and those that prefer to not simply politely stand quietly. But even that would not satisfy some I suspect.

My troop dates to 1921, as does our council. In the local museum there is a scrapbook with photos from the first 10 years of the council. And when you look closely at camp photos there are naked scouts in the water or on the shore. In my troop scrapbook, I have one of some of my scouts, along with other senior scouts, who posed very carefully in the buff (so nothing showed but bare limbs and skin) somewhere near a Sierra lake in the mid forties on a hike after staffing the local camp. The adult that sent it to me even included most of their names and a map. At our 85th anniversary, I got a complaint from a parent about the photo, so I now do not display when we have the reunions, though it is still in the archive. Funny how today, the traditional baby on a blanket on a lawn or the floor is seldom seen anymore. That was always one of the ones you did not want mom to show to visitors when you were a teen; or at least we didn't. And almost everyone had at least one of that type.

For your consideration.

When I was a member of the Y in the early fifties, they had father/son swims on Friday evening that were suits optional. They had a window above that had a curtain on it. And the kids used the same locker area as the adults, including the showers. Of course, skinny-dipping was fairly common even then, even in scouts when in the outback. Of course, we also had to take real showers in open shower areas for PE and sports; there was no excuse that someone might be emotionally harmed by lack of modesty or whatever. It was just the way it was then. In some respects, it may have been better in that we did not have the modern fears of adolescent boys (and likely girls too). Do not know how often I have to almost force boys to go to the showers, even in their bathing suits, while at camp. And they often will not change to suits or clothing if their tent mate is there. But, as I have often said, I am OLD, and was raised in different circumstances and cultural ideas.

That was a repeat with supposed update. My experience with Scouting related appraisals on there is that they basically do not have a clue. Mostly too high, though years ago I think they were too low based on what I saw on the teens era uniform sleeves. If you look at eBay, slides often go unbid on all together unless it is very well done, or a special location of particular interest. Same goes for neckerchiefs themselves. Still, was interesting to see.

Huzzar; Local option should have little or no effect on district or higher if it is not made a public issue. Why would my unit care, as long as we were not required to directly interact or be subjected to political or social commentary related to it? If the individual(s) felt they needed to publicize it outside their unit, then they would be in violation anyway, just like the Methodist unit that lost its charter. Lets be real; we are all subject to exposure just by going out in public; but it is seldom an issue, as we are not normally interacting knowingly. Half the problem is that for some reason, people seem to feel they need to broadcast everything they do on personal levels. And of course, units that did have problems interacting could still function with almost no contact with other units if they chose to.

Pack; I think today your statement is likely accurate in the entire country, or at least hope it is. But, what I am saying is that thirty years ago, things were not so specific, and the authorities often would not do anything without a direct complaint. That was one of the biggest problems back then and earlier. Between authorities not following up without certain direct complaints, and often unwillingness to put this kind of thing out publicly, it was not necessarily clear where the poor decisions were made. We keep using today's standards to judge what happened when these standards did not necessarily exist, even though we would mostly agree THEY SHOULD HAVE. Rock and a hard place again. This particular story hints that BSA did report it, but the family chose to not follow up. Today, the BSA report would be enough in most cases.

"Ten Commandments of Logic" https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/1483220_718769974810683_97803309_n.jpg

"The victim did not make a separate police report to the Phoenix Police Department." From the story. We again arrive at the difference in response to these things at the time. If the victim and his family did not report separately to the police, then an actual complaint could not be filed by BSA, as they were not the actual victim. What is not clear is whether they reported it outside the organization then, but the quote would suggest they did; "did not make a separate police report".

Now AZ, maybe they are just trying to be "helpful".

And I think it is far past the time to simply let the local units run themselves as they see fit, as long as it does not stray outside the basic foundational standards nor trespass on other units' choices. It particularly time to STOP the politicalization of BSA and simply let it evolve on its own. A nudge is helpful, but a shove can put you over the edge. Most of the people and groups doing the public baying have little or no actual involvement with the program and have almost no concern for the actual unit functions.

Sounds as if this is another one of the media corruptions of fact. These are former scouts, since their membership is no longer valid. Of course, it is definitely another political ploy.

Ghost writers!?

Doesn't help when Kaiser informs the mom of one of your scouts that they do not need one since they gave him one last year. They continue to think the old rule is in effect for some reason. Hopefully she got it straight with them after I sent her all the links that apply.

Unless someone dropped the ball on proper filing, it should all be on file in the council records, and hopefully the troop. Good luck.

It is highly doubtful that anybody is going to second guess a leader's decision on this since it is a unit concern. Personally, I do not worry about possibly misinterpreting a National written guideline, as long as it is not unsafe and makes basic common sense. It continues to throw me that so many of the younger adults live in a world of fear to make "rational" decisions that shade to grey at times, yet can often be frustratingly egocentric if there are no apparent guidelines they need to fit within. Another part of being raised with different parental methods and expectations I guess; being old.

What is it about the black or white mentality? Make sure the scout has enough additional nights under canvas or the stars, if that is of a concern; but you would count their wilderness survival shelter, even if it was basically a similar structure. They are still outdoors and in the campsite. If you must cross the t's exactly, then have any boys that need the time "immediately" for some reason either simply sleep outside on a mat, a cot from the Adirondack, hammock (as noted), or bring their own tent for the week. Use common sense, give them enough other opportunities so that this is not an issue, keep the outdoors in the forefront, and stop the micro managing.

So AZ, while I can understand your comments and frustration, you need to remember we have certain guidelines, the Oath and Law, that we "do our best" to live up to. And much of your idea would fly in the face of those it seems to me. Find a way to stay true to our foundation, and I will vote for you.

Possibly because Campfire predates GS and was directly connected to Dan Beard, as his sister was a founder and he was on boards related to it. A number of years ago, back when forums were very basic and difficult to follow, I ran across a discussion by a Beard family member talking about her grandfather or father, campfire, and Dan Beard. She had some very cryptic comments related to scouting at the time, but I did not know how to save such info then, so it is long gone, at least for me.

Not what I wrote

"This is a crap piece that judges therapy based on stereotypes. Discard it." Did you actually read beyond the first paragraph? There are a number of areas discussed that should make us think a bit. While you may not agree, certainly there are valid points brought up; I have seen examples more than once. More than once we have seen over zealous theapists cause irrepairable damage to parents and families by convincing someone they have been mistreated in some manner, when in reality it was "planted" so to speak by the therapy sessions. The piece also goes beyond the actual therapy and touches on the general malaise in society of the self centered, egocentric individuals who do not understand the difference between freedom and license and think somehow they are not responsible for their own actions. We see related problems in the over-diagnosis of learning disabilities and prescribing of drugs to deal with difficult kids.