skeptic

And that is part of the sadness. In today's egocentric and non-reflective society, the basis of the program could help balance the problems. That is why we DO need the program, but with the proper focus and attention to the foundational standards.

On occasion, though not as often as should be, COR's are actually involved in their position on the Executive board. And on even rare instances, the group of COR's have been known to band together and restructure the local council. It takes a lot of effort by a very concerned person or persons to get them involved. Many have no idea that they actually have a vote on the Executive board, and that if they attend, they must be allowed to participate. I am aware of at least a couple of times when the completely volunteer COR's banned together and fired the Council SE. Of course, National may still just move the fired Professional, but they cannot leave them in a council that does not want them. I know that there was a major issue in I believe the Chicago area regarding the oldest camp that saw an uprising. But most of the time, too few are willing to push the envelope, or simply do not know they can. And as has been noted, the political members of the Exec board and the paid executive do not want the majority of voting members involved regularly. Yet, IF the COR's regularly did their jobs as described, you might see some more consistently viable executive boards and councils functioning better.

Years ago, not long after I became SM of our troop, we were at summer camp. It was late, and the scouts were mostly in their bags and quiet. Two of my senior scouts, both leaders, came up to me and asked to talk. I was fairly new, and I had been dealing with a few issues due to my change in SM direction when I took over not too long before camp. So, I sort of prepped for a challenge. I got one, but not as I feared. I had been standing staring at the night sky, a stellar explosion looming out of the dark void, as the moon was not yet trespassing on the night. They stood there a moment, then one asked me how I could believe in God, noting some of the common misunderstandings seekers have about the evil in the world and why it happens if God is in control. So, I asked them what then they would attribute that immensity above us to. I broached the subject of free choice and how we all make the wrong ones. Ultimately, I suggested they simply sleep under the sky that night and consider that seemingly impossible blackness that stretched beyond our imaginations and how we were just a speck in comparison, yet we wanted to understand. I do not know for sure what I might have said that mattered, but the next morning they both told me that they knew there was something, but still did not know. It seemed to me that was enough. They had turned within for a moment, and for me, that looking inward is looking for that speck of God from which each of us is created, the momentary peace that something greater exists, even within ourself. Both of those young people had talked of dropping out. But they did not, and they became Eagles and fine young people that now have grown children. I blessed to still be in occasional contact, and while they have no scouts in their immediate families, as their children are girls from before the new era, they still support our ideals. For me, the early scripture in Exodus 3:14......"I AM WHO I AM.". This was the voice from the burning bush to Moses. It has said to me for a long time that God, whatever he/she/it is, just is. This personal thing did not come to me as a youth, but after many years of searching for answers. We all hopefully take that journey and arrive with our "own" understanding eventually.

Barry; Not quite getting the comment on the three points of Law and requiring. Certainly it is much more difficult to do your best to adhere to those points if you refuse to be inclusive, but again it becomes semantics. Inclusive to me is as simple as allowing something to be in the sphere; but it does not include requiring anyone to accept those life styles or beliefs as their own. It is harder of course to be civil if something grates on your deepest beliefs. Then you decide that you politely disengage as most as you are able without conflict, if possible. That narrow ledge of overlapping emotion and perspective, often based on personal definitions. What is even harder though is trying to listen and actually hear.

Semantics I suppose. They can believe whatever they wish. If I believe it is contradictory, and that is my right. They can continue to be contradictory. None of us are likely to know the final answer in the incarnation in which we currently dwell, or at least not without a major change in our understanding. Meanwhile, I will continue to drift in my own mental state(s).😳

I continue to believe that that atheism, or Atheism, is not possible. It is defined as the disbelief or denial of God or a higher power. But that is contradictory, as you cannot deny or disbelive in something that does not exist. So, I suggest that they are of course agnostics, those that have yet to figure it out to their own acceptance or understanding.

Healdsburg Enterprise 6 October 1927 Healdsburg Enterprise, Volume L, Number 15, 6 October 1927 Issue PDF (23.25 MB)Locked Issue Article MAJORITY OF CRIMES COMMUTED OY YOUNG MEN Text Why may this text contain mistakes? Correct this text Contributors: Wes Keat MAJORITY OF CRIMES COMMUTED OY YOUNG MEN "Three-fourths of the crimes committed today are by young boys between the ages of 17 and 24,"* said Captain Duncan Mathewson, chief of the detective bureau of San Francisco, in his address before the Kiwanis Club Tuesday. A remarkable feature, he stated, was that in all the penal institutions of the state, not a Boy Scout is to be found. He lauded the work of this organization and pointed out that along the lines, of the work and teachings of the scouts, if expanded further, great good will result. He stated that the cost of crime in the United Slates In 1926 has been estimated at four billion dollars. There have been 12,000 murders committed within the last five years. There are 137,000 living murderers in this country. There are 200,000 Inmates of states prisons. From 1919 to 1925 the Increase in crime in California was 57 per cent; in Illinois 74 per cent, and in Michigan, duo to the rapidly increasing automobile Industry and consequent flocking in of men, the Increase in crime has been 828 per cent. The quarterly report of the Department of Institutions of California for July Ist shows 326 girls In the Ventura detention home; Preston School for boys 1241 inmates; Whittier school, 502 hoys. Folsom state prison 2C84 inmates, and Sian Quentin 5157. Thorn are 28,551 wards of tip* state. i In San Francisco last year there wore 60,778 arrests made, 11,000 of which were for drunkenness, 300 for driving automobiles while drunk, ami more than an average of one a day for robbery. ' • “We need no now prisons in California sudh as are now under contemplation,'' said Captain Mathewson, “but What we should have isan Institution tq house the professional reformers, molly-coddles, upr lifters and psychologists on crime, who are the primary cause of the present crime wave in the United States. ” i Harold Rosenberg was chairman of the day and he had as his guest his. father-in-law. Max Goldberg, at one time a member of the Sun Francisco police commission. A number of townspeople were invited to attend the meeting and also Santa, Rosa Klwanians were present. The meeting was undoubtedly tha best ever hold by the club. Captain. Mathewson is an earnest and interesting talker and his remarks wera based on more than thirty years’ experience In handling criminals. Uet has a wide reputation as a criminologist, and altogether ills remarks made a telling impressson on his hearers. i

I do not recall actually seeing or hearing of them being so challenged, or the father, who, let's face it, was the instigator. That was a long time ago now, which is a comment in itself.

I have looked over the article twice and cannot find when this actually occurred. Is it another rehash of already reported and hung out in the press, or is it something new? I get the impression that it is a short movie up for Sundance consideration that once more brings up an old series of cases. The time of publication, in conjunction with a film festival entry, is notable. I keep waiting for similar stories to appear about stuff in schools, sports, and youth clubs.

The merit badge part of the discussion made me think a bit about the "oldest" days. Shirts were long sleeved then, not sure when a uniform with short sleeves became available. The first six MB's could be worn on the right sleeve up from the cuff in two's, though again will need to review, maybe the limit was not there initially. Merit badge sleeves, attached sleeves for jus them, became an addition for a while, then replaced with the sash. Early sashes were narrow. I have seen some seriously cool early photos with scouts wearing sleeves covered shoulder to cuff almost. Have tried to find even one for my assortment of stuff, but they are few and far between and more money than I prefer to pay. I still remember though having three or four mb's on my right sleeve when I was first starting. It was a big deal. I occasionally wear WB beads alone with T or the basic shirt, but usually I have a neckerchief with the beads twisted to hold the tips down. Only wear the complete WB setup on rare occasion. Have one of the English neckers that is larger, and it fits well; my original one was way too short.

Similar conflicts date back a couple of decades. One of the larger ones was the long drawn out case in San Diego over the use of Balboa Park and later Fiesta Island for camps. The ACLU took up the case and dragged on for a very long time. The City of San Diego paid the ACLU a large sum to be removed from the suit. But, after ten years or more the case was thrown out. It started with just Balboa, and then had the other camp added when it was developed, with the request of the county, city and other youth groups. The ACLU as far a I know never was asked to return the money either. Another was the infamous Randall Twins who were cubs. Their father claimed he was atheist and so they too were. He was also a lawyer. It went round and round, but they eventurally were allowed to actually go all the way through the scouting ranks. Have to check, but I think it became a news bit years later when they reached Eagle. The crazy thing, at least for me, in the very early stages was when a reporter asked the boys, when they were still young Cubs, how they understood natural things such as the forest, or the stars and such. The boys responded that that was just Mother Nature. I could not help but wonder how come nobody at the time pointed out that Mother Nature is just another Godess, which in my mind contradicted their position. Reality is that most of these young people are still trying to reconcile their beliefs and understanding, and when they make such claims, it is a result of that searching within. Ultimately then, they are still trying to deal with their own spirituality, or at least so I feel. And that is what we ask, that they recognize something beyond themselves or at least see that there is that unanswered question. I am still searching within, even though I consider myself a Christian. We will not likely know until the time arrives; and even then, we may not encounter what we may hope or think. Way too out there I guess.

I wonder if we may seriously want to consider adding or modifying requirements for Citizenship in the Nation to include actually pass the Citizenship Test for those trying to become citizens; pass at or above the same standard an immigrant needs? Review this: as leaders and mentors in general, we should have concerns. Just the way I see it. https://woodrow.org/news/national-survey-finds-just-1-in-3-americans-would-pass-citizenship-test/?fbclid=IwAR0xsWFiD5opdYNBsi8mVkJTc_hogDjCVQFZhBMCs1Zr-XI_MeiqBvFKLOQ

Sounds as if they have basically put the old WB course into a new format. 8 days on the side of the mountain at a summer camp. Formed into the traditional patrols, and you were scouts all week, with patrol challenges and all that it entailed. Most of that is lost from the current WB plan that can be completed indoors for the most part, often using dorms, and multiple weekends.

If, as in very likely a majority of units, the individual scout is credited for his contribution in some manner, usually a limited use account of some kind, then he likely should have such an option. Most of these accounts have restrictions on them as to what they can actually spend the funds on; it is mostly administrative fees, camping, uniforming. It generally is not allowed to use it for simple frivolous personal items or entertainment. Kind of another fine line, since it is not a personal use. But it does belong to the unit, not the scout. In our unit, if they leave, normally any funds left in an account returns to the unit directly, though it might, with proper management, follow him to another unit, paid to that unit, not the scout or his family.

Ah yes; common sense and logic rear their head; good to see they are not dead, only apparently dormant much of the time.

"We want to make sure they know the boundaries." Basically, this is what I hoped we could share about. How do we "Do our best" to assure this? We will never get all, or for that matter, many adults to take the time or to pay attention. But, at the same time, by having a broad enough group of adults, leaders with actual YP or not, will enhance our chances for issue NOT occurring. Nothing is foolproof; we all know that. On the other hand, we need to keep the parameters of protection in view as well as possible. This is as much for the adults as it is for the youth. Those of us old enough remember the life-altering fiasco that was "McMartin". Be prepared; work the program.

I guess my concern is not coming through. We are told we cannot keep non registered adults that are part of the family group, or for that matter just friends, from attendance. And that is fine, as long as the parents understand the YP rules, at least the minimum, such as kids not alone with single adults or big age gaps of youth. The YP protection standards need to apply to ALL adults, even if they choose to not be registered, and we need to NOT assume that because someone vouches for them that we can somehow allow the rules to be bent or ignored. That comes from assuring, in some manner, that the parents understand those standards, even if they prefer not to be actually registered. That is not asking them to do our jobs, that is simply asking them to understand the rules and if necessary be aware of their violations as well. Is there a way to reach MOST of them, even if not regular attendees or leaders?

Reviewing various pieces of YP, I do not find anything "specific" to how to approach the general adult contact from family, friends, and unregistered parents. Other than the various guides in the fronts of the manuals, the ones parents are in theory covering with their youth, what is there? As you review the fewer, but still occurring cases it seems as if the problem is often because those actually trained are not in the position to observe at times. How many parents, or simply adults in attendance at a general gathering, are prepared to note YP violations? What are our best ways to cover as much of the possible scenes as we can, encouraging general parental attendees to at least know the rules, registered or not?

Yes, the Jeal book has a great deal of innuendo, or so it seemed to me. Having read a number of other bio's of BP, it gave me pause, for sure. Personally, I feel after much farther study that Teal was doing a lot of what the current era is doing to BSA. He tries to take a different historical period and make it comparable to a modern one. That does not work, and it causes many issues, or at least so I believe. Still, the overall depth of research makes the book a must to better understand BP. If you want to get an even different view, read one of the actual family memoirs or material he personally wrote that touches on his thoughts, like Rovering To Success or Lessons from the Varsity of Life. You might also take a look at this web site; http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/

Interesting discussion. I have seen a few instances in Eagle projects where an adult tries to run the project, NOT a parent, but one with special knowledge; or maybe they think they have expertise. If the candidate is a younger one, they truly have a hard time speaking up, even if it is written and approved by others. That is the time when we, as leaders, might need to step in and suggest the interfering adult rethink their actions, possibly taking them aside and reminding them or simply educating them as to what the intent of the Scout being in charge is. A couple of times, in a review board, when asked about issues with the project, we have had this very discussion. I am one to feel that as long as there will not be any danger or injury, to let them lead and see what happens. After all, that is really what we hopefully strive for.

This whole thread has gone down. Guess the vet wanted to feather his nest a bit.

And here lies the proverbial rub. We could have a girl patrol in our unit, one that would allow us to offer the program to a small group and hopefully grow from there. But we do not have the resources to have a separate unit, nor at the moment the minimum 5 to start it. Our small cub group has a den of girls and they will need to go to another unattached unit if they want to bridge, unless we somehow are able to make the "new" unit happen. I personally am still of the opinion that we need to adjust the requirement of a separate unit, while still tweaking the way to handle it. It should be a viable option for small units like ours that have a long history but small boy size.

I just finished reading The Hearts of Men by Butler. I note it as adult, as it deals with real, but more mature subjects, even as it encompasses many elements of Scouting. If you get a chance, consider reading it. Take a look at the synopsis on the web through Amazon or your favorite source. I found it to be excellent; it managed to touch on many of my personal realities in Scouting both as a youth and an adult. It does not though pull many punches in its slant and made me think a bit. Take a look.

Few of us that have been around any length of time have not encountered self centered volunteers who seem to be more in the program for what they can put on the uniform than for their children, assuming they have them in the program. But, like many annoyances in life, we tend too often to focus on the anomaly in the group rather than those that live the intent of the various parts of the program. The best Woodbadgers would almost lay down their lives for Scouting and the youth within. The knots are apersonal thing, but if you hang around for a while and actually work the program you may end up with a number of them that do not require your actually earning them specifically. District, council, and higher volunteer recognitions seldom go to non-contributors, though perhaps some do to those with dollars to offer. That sometimes is them buying the award, but more often than not, they have done more than just give money if they have been around a while. Knots can be an avenue to encourage scouts who ask about them. I often tell them I am old, so they grow on you. But I also explain them, and note those most important to me and why; Eagle, Youth Religious, Award of Merit and Silver Beaver, and my two Scoutmaster awards, the old NESA one and the more current one. I for a long while did not wear the West until an oldtime retired scouter pinned a collar pin on my RT shirt thanking me for my time in the program and helping as needed. He was retired and decided to spend some of his money, having no family, in recognizing Scouters. I also had been given a memorial version for one of my earliest Eagles that had died in service, but I had not felt I should wear the knot. It was pointed out to me, that the memorial recognitions were not being properly appreciated if I did not wear the knot. No Arrow of Light as I was never an actual cub; my mother was den mother for my older brother and I just did it with no membership; I wanted to turn 11 and be a Boy Scout. Training and Key with devices, the only ones you actually earn, and an adult recognition from my church. The only time the medals are worn for formal occasions or dinners, Scout Sunday, and Eagle COHs. At the Eagle dinners, I actually do not wear the medal but do have lapel pins, since I am in a sport coat. My experience has been that you do not fool the scouts for long if you are not the representative you should be. But they respect adults that show they care and try to live the tenets. Never be afraid to admit when you may be in error or lose it and need to apologize. I do not want youth to think that it is okay for me to blow up, even if there may be good reason. So, if it does happen, and it will over time, just face up to it when you calm down and try to assuage the damage. Set the example; they are always watching.

Key word; "reasonably". That too often is the disconnect it seems. I often wonder at what point the memory of the reality of the lower levels disappears for those that move up. Not just in Scouting, but in my experience in retail management.