skeptic

While I was received with open arms as an ASM in an on base troop in Germany in 1966, I lost my involvement due to transfer to remote station and then return to college after going home and getting out. It was also the middle of the negative "uniform" response already noted in this piece, and the world was chaotic and the hope of the Kennedy challenge was lost due to his and the other prominent leader assassinations. I attempted to become reinvolved in 1975 in Orange County, CA but the office ignored me. In 1976, I tried again in the old GWC and was grabbed, along with my ex after attending a COR in Malibu Canyon. Have been doing it ever since. I was fortunate to find an avid, if a bit "different" group in that encounter in Canoga Park, "The Patrones". They gave me my first adult training at Camp Slausen, and they had some pretty impressive, and eccentric members; Bob White, Skipper, and Mike Brandt among them. There was also a member, Tadeuzs Borowski, a fabulous and great Scouter who was an international star as well. He was the equivalent of Eagle in Poland prior to WWII and then particpated in the Scouting Underground, along with his wife. She was captured and spent time in a camp and he escaped to England an flew as a Polish pilot over Germany. They later were major playes in a group called Scouting in Exile that perpetuated the scouting programs of the dissolved groups behind the Iron Curtain. I was privileged to attend a couple of their programs and still have Tad's short bio in my Scouting files. My ex and I were honored to visit them in their home in Canoga Park once or twice where they shared some of their Scouting experiences and a bit of his work from Disney. Moving to Ventura in 1977 I fell into a SM position through my job; the store manager was my boss and the committee chair. I am still there, struggling to keep us going along with a few others. The unit turns 100 in December of 2021, if we can survive this latest challenge and I can get some young leaders to join us with the current challenges. Camping and hiking have always been the mainstays of the troop, though they spent a decade or more as an NRA junior club as well. When I took over, we could still get them out with only one adult, if necessary, which we all know is not the best, but often kept units alive in harder times. And we did get out regularly and began a two decade+ backpack program which included Philmont twice, and Mt. Whitney and the John Muir Trail. Also five trips to PTC for me, and a sixth last year for the Historian Summit. Somehow we scratch our way forward. If anyone on here is from my area and thinks they might want to re immerse themselves in the challenges, please let me know. We have a supportive CO and many new and different opportunities with the needed leaders. Obviously, my age is a factor now, and in the past five years has smacked me with unexpected health issues. While I would love to have members from my own unit become reinvolved, any willing to honestly work with the current options and challenges are welcome, especially if they might have experience. But even those with little, but willing to carry the torch, are welcome with proper YP vetting. One thing I wanted to share is that those that see the basic promise of the larger program need to get involved. I watched many of the best mentors drop out in the early 80s as the political issues began and the backlash against the Vietnam Era hit us, along with a disconnected National Council who lost site of the main goals. That has already been partly addressed here.

That would be great. Thank you.

I am looking forward to the next post. Will you have the entire work available for download or something as well. It is something I would want to add to my own historical archives, which includes a number of little known essays and such from the last couple of decades of turmoil. For those that may have the stamina, you seem to have left open a number of jump off points for more detail. Is that something to which we may look forward as well?

And it is not difficult to find numerous similar representations that are lauded, and partly because they are real life. Life and society as a whole is often dark and mean, or selfish and too often accepts the worst of itself as okay, especially in the "entertainment" industries, which includes sports, both actual professional and the pseudo college teams. Finding our way through and around the mazes of a hypocritical world is a challenge, and it is one that Scouting attempts to navigate, in spite of the numerous crossed branches in the roads and trails.

Over on the FB Talk About Scouting a similar unending he said/did, and so on is going on. There is not answer to any of this that will satisfy a few, even if the BSA does disappear, as we know it. One comment that nudged me though was the idea we need to be "fair" to the victim. Now of course this revolved partly around whether or not some of them are even actual victims and brings us back to the "McMartin scenario", but accepting that this occurred, because we know we have such people in society, "what is fair?" What amount of money will erase the scar(s) of actual abuse? Does ruining a mostly positive program that serves the community in so many ways in a positive manner salve the scars on the ids of the real victims? Then there is the connected what is fair to the "lawyers" who we know care less about the final results, even for the victims? Should not our court/legal system offer a valid response to this that puts the actual victims first and limits, period, the amount the lawyers can take? Finally, what is fair to the larger organization, especially when they are trying to work with the mess, and have admitted error and poor decisions, and already offered open ended counseling and such to verified victims? We put felons in prison for, in most cases, allotted sentences. And theory says that they have paid their debt, and can rejoin society, though we know that is sometimes not the case. Still, there are limits on many types of felony sentences, and even some civil offenses. I know I am barking at the moon, but at least it takes it out of my craw for the moment. Reality is that in our current society there is no win/win, only uneven retribution for the sake of retribution and grudges.

Yep; I have to admit that if I could, I would bar Prager from my FB page, but they apparently do not fit the mold for being able to block. I just delete posts if possible. They are so biased as to be almost liberal as they move around the circle. And, as noted, they also are NOT a university, and purposely try to lead people to think they have an intellectual leg up.

While this may or may not be the place for this comment, and maybe it is making myself a target, but I have to wonder about a society that will allow this to happen to a group that has done and continues to do so much for the communities across the country, while so many continue to allow the cesspools in many parts of government and the entertainment industry. While the issues that are the cause of this problem with BSA are real, it seems to me that the I would say 99%+ positive record of BSA should put them in a better public position. But, for some reason, people jump on the infinitesimal poor things over the past fifty plus years, even as they sit on the benches in parks, and enjoy the plant boxes in myriad school, and the refurbished cemeteries in many locations, and numerous other contributions of Eagle projects. They cast aspersions on the entire program based on a different era, one that compared to much of society of the time, was still far better than most groups, and seem to find it okay to destroy the organization and all its history of positive citizenship development and community service, just so lawyers can make money on the backs of a few, even though BSA would and has reached out to those that came forward individually, with counseling and so on. Meanwhile, we see powerful and wealthy individuals sweep far worse things under carpets, and do little to try and stop child trafficking and prostitution, nor fix the numerous welfare agencies that are over-taxed and allow far worse to occur than that for which BSA is being ruined. I am having a hard time balancing right and wrong anymore. Humans are so many faceted that there is no way to deal with all their myriad failures of conscience and actions. We will never fix some people's warped ways, nor will we eradicate the worst in society completely. Just as we will never get completely rid of the common cold or stop the power of nature in general. Enough with the negative. I need, we all need, to move forward and if we believe in the overall goodness of the program and its foundation, then we will fight to keep finding our way.

And there is info out there that seems to me as bad or worse. This is not all over the media, but I bet the issue still exists. https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2016/12/22/teachers-who-sexually-abuse-students-still-find-classroom-jobs/95346790/

Those that are not BSA should be very aware of this. It is only one of the internet searches that indicate the ambulance chaser list of possible sources. And most of these do not have the safeguards of BSA still. Just not seen as the deepest pocket, but they will continue unless the court system and legal system makes some checks and balances, while still keeping real victims able to sue. https://www.levylaw.com/sex-abuse-lawsuits/

The point is not that things were done poorly in an earlier time, and since that time, huge strides have been made to try to fix it. No amount of rules will stop it completely, but the responses can be more real and accepted in the larger society. The issue is that, since you mention Slavery, that reparations are never going to fix the past; nor is killing the BSA, a group that is far more good than evil, for youth and the society. But, unless our legal system gets redirected, this imbalance will get worse, and we will see attacks on many more overly positive and beneficial groups. Meanwhile, we have to try to work with the system and be sure to stay in the guidelines completely. It would just be nice if the media would make an effort to tell the complete story, rather than only the "juiciest" part, or most sensational.

So, while it truly concerns me, and we are struggling even more due to the pandemic, but we CAN work locally and emphasize the best of Scouting. As we see noted on here, Scouting is local. Still, I actually like the idea of finding a way to get a valid and actually watched source to do the "complete" story. That would include digging out stats from the twentieth century, from the teens, and making comparisons of youth groups of the periods, maybe by decade or something. Also, it would discuss the realities of society's approach to these types of things, again by decades or something, pointing out where the big change in view began and grew. It also would discuss the "fact" BSA did more than most for the time to try to keep the worst elements out, especially with the totally unprecedented Ineligible Volunteer Files; and it would hopefully show how on occasion, before computers, they were able to keep some of the predators at bay. Following this would be the huge changes starting in the late 80's, including the challenges of the Dale issue and its post attacks. It would discuss in depth the continued growth of YP and how the BSA is the model almost all look to for their own developments. I have tried a number of times to guilt local news outlets into going beyond the shallow, sensationalism that is common today. But how to get that high level article, one that will as accurately as possible give the complete story and consequences, is lost to me. It truly appears that the media is not ready to actually write this in a balanced and nuanced way, dealing with the fact of societal changes, especially those from over thirty years ago when families often preferred to not go public, and local authorities had a different approach unless it was someone from a powerful or prominent family. S So, how does this come to fruition? Is there someone that regularly reads this forum that can somehow make this happen? I surely do not have the contacts. Yet, based on the comments I noted from the recent feedback on the Huffington Post's thread from AOL, there are a lot of people that are on the side of common sense and recognize the legal predator angle.

The subject made it onto the "news" feed on AOL, which is Huffington Post. I was pleasantly surprised to see the comments, and there are many, are almost all slamming the lawyers and the whole situation. A number loudly note what has been said on here for a long while, including noting how media hype is almost always aimed at negative stuff, and that the far greater good that has come from BSA is brushed aside. The amount of comments about the ads and the "ambulance chasers" were very high, and many recognized that it is a societal problem. And, while there were the few ignorant comments referencing the Dale period, most of those were met with their own negative responses. Also were a number of ominous mentions of other groups needing to hide, and calls for fixing the legal system.

Unless the focus can be moved to the very real fact BSA tried where nobody else did, and that their current YP is the model today, the mess will continue. You would hope that there might be a real writer somewhere that might find a media source that could get the real story out, the one that shows BSA had a lower percentage of verified problems during that peak time; that they came up with a way to hopefully avoid some of these people that prey on society everywhere; that the current YP is the model for others, even as the lawsuits continue; that the idea that BSA or anyone could have stopped these problems, especially in an age that had different points of view and methods of dealing with things; and that holding today's BSA responsible for what were often decisions of parents and past societal norms is simply wrong, especially since BSA is attempting to come to a fair accounting, even though it is an unfair expectation in our warped legal system. As I have noted before, this likely would not fly in hardly any other country, and our legal system needs a serious overhaul.

Two things in regard to the most recent posts. The Ineligible Volunteer Files were not secret to the councils, they were simply not public information, due to their actual nature. All councils had access to check a volunteer if they felt it necessary; that was the whole point to begin with. That was by phone or mail initially, and at some point, likely became available in some electronic form. They did not hide this information within the organization. But it was not developed to share with anybody, though I believe if asked by another group, they likely would have reviewed it on a case by case basis. So, the idea that they were "secret" is over hyped. Again, they were simply an internal check based on the era in which they started. And many of them had nothing to do with "perversion", but rather other possible poor models such as major felons and so on. Secondly, anybody that is paying any attention and has involvement with Scouting should be completely aware of the ongoing lawsuits and the bankruptcy. I seriously doubt many CO's exist that would not have the awareness to see where they might stand in this regard. Recharter has not hidden the information from the CO's, and certainly the yellow press has done their best to make sure people know about it. So, IMO, the hyperbole regarding that is simply foolish and not a real concern. I was at our Methodist church today, and they certainly are aware. The National Men's group, who is the representative for Youth Serving has notified all units to file as needed. Our Pastor told me it has been done, and that the local Conference is keeping up with it as well.

Showing my age again, and I REALIZE that we do not live in the fifties now, so just take note that I do understand there are different views today, though I do wonder if some may be overreach much of the time. Anyway, when most of my peers were kids this would have been settled by themselves and they would be friends again soon after. My dad brought a set of boxing gloves home for my brother and I, and on occasion, neighbor or two. At times, I wonder if there might be some in between place that would put the onus on the kids a bit more to simply figure it out. But, I realize, as noted, we live in a different world, and there were some really bad situations that happened back then as well, though most of us would have a fight, sometimes physical and emotional, and very soon be friends, or at least, accepting, with the other kid. Where to draw the line to not interfere is the question. But helicopter parents sometimes are flying military grade ones now. One more reason to find a way to get the foundation of Scouting back into play with the youth of today.

No, I am suggesting that IF a claim is being brought against the BSA against a specific individual that "other" possible responsible entities might also be investigated to determine IF they did everything to make sure abuse did not happen, and it it might have, follow up both on the possibly incident and the addition of that entity into their broad brush lawsuit. We all know that the more checks and investigations of someone that occur, the more likely something might jump out. If we are going to beat the bushes, lets beat those on the periphery as well. Meanwhile, exercise due diligence against the lawyers who, if the postings here are accurate, have suspicious or non existent addresses for contacting them. That, in itself, might be grounds for a judgement of some sort, or so it might seem to a non legal individual. It just seems to reflect that they are shysters to me. Again, I am mostly spitting in the wind. The two main posters here seem to obviously not really care about leveling the playing field, or the survival of BSA. JMO of course. Since real logic and simple common sense appear to be in slight supply, I will go back to reading and shaking my head at the absurdity of most of this whole thing.

Another question that has come to mind is are these "lawyers" investigating cases where the actual perpetrator is known? If so, did they go beyond their participation in BSA? Were they possibly employed by some kind of youth related group or agency? Did they also work with youth sports or the Y, or Boys and Girls club? If so, were there possible similar complaints there? Finally, it is odd, at least to me, that there are claims that are saying they do not remember who, or what unit, or where they met, and so on. IF it traumatized them from that long ago period, you would think they might remember some of the details, and not just that some "ambulance chasing legal group" suggests that they may make a vague claim with little or no need for documentation. Not suggesting there is no validity to some of the claimants, only that the openly vague option is just that, open and vague. But what would I know. I keep thinking that we should maybe look beyond the accusation and require at least a modicum of validation. And I also feel that the comparative stats related to other groups should be in play as far as the claims that nothing was done. We have already noted that nobody else kept records, or at least none of which we are aware. That in itself is more effort to root the worst out, than most.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: The perpetrators, the ones actually responsible are long gone for the most part. The local authorities and political or power brokers that protected the actual perpetrators are basically ignored, since they are either some civilly protected entity or are conveniently untraceable. Most of the claimants likely are not in the so called Perversion files, as they were shielded by those connected entities or their family's chose, at the time, to NOT put the claim into the public eye. And, if the claim is actually in the Ineligible Volunteer File, there are notes as to what was done outside the BSA that resulted in no charges or minor charges. After fifty plus years, most of it is really like the charges lodged against political people that date back decades. Yet we do not see them being held accountable. Why? Because there is power and money that is willing to sweep it away, and the lawyers do not see a pay day.

This reminded me of my foolish young scout days. I was in a troop as an 11 or 12 years old and we were camped for a few days, summer of 1955 or maybe 56, in the mountains near Slide Lake which is in the Pomona area of So Cal. Anyway, two of us were hiking and we ran across deer tracks and started following them. I was wearing my proud acquisition from selling Christmas cards, a belt ax with sheath knife, and I had a hiking stick as did my buddy. We noticed the tracks were farther apart and wondered if we were close and scared it. Then we realized there was another set of tracks now, and they were not deer, but large cat imprints. That was when we decided tracking the deer was not a good idea. We took my hatchet and knife and put points on our hiking sticks and then we turned around and headed towards camp, constantly jumping at noises and peering into the scrub and mancinita. We never saw the cat or the deer, but when we turned around, the deer was obviously moving much faster, as were we in the opposite direction. Funny how I had almost forgotten that. As an adult, we were camped on the Sespe at Bear Creek. It was early summer or late spring, and we had not pitched tents. I got up the next morning and wandered away to water a tree, and on the way back into the site, I saw fresh tracks in the damp sand of the river bar just a few dozen feet from where we were sleeping. The tracks came within about ten feet of one scout, who was still asleep. When he woke up, he did not see the tracks, but when I pointed them out to him, the look was pretty funny. Wish I had had some plater, as the tracks were deep and fresh. Would have been great to capture them.

Interesting comment. Harks back to the early days of Scouting and one of the requirements. What to do about a rabid dog? That was actually an issue in those days.

Glad there is a video attached. Otherwise, I might have referred them to YP guiidelines.

Reality is that Ms. Ireland likely met and surpassed most of the requirements in her other earlier Scouting involvements, and that she is qualified in spades. Most of the push back seems petty to me. As far as First, or leading the list, or whatever, it is really not important. What is important that we have pushed past another barrier that can do nothing but improve the reach of the program, and may even enhance it much more than many realize. Congratulations to them all, and perhaps special kudos to Ms. Ireland for sticking to her guns and helping to open the program to young women who so choose. Like prejudice, misogyny has no place in Scouting.

We might add the possibility that society as a whole was equally responsible in that the responses to these things were completely different in that earlier period. So, once again, taking the sin/bad behavior out of its own period to be measured against a different view and response mechanism is blatantly unfair to most involved. And to remove the actual perpetrator from the picture, basically because they are dead or too senile to be held accountable to modern "standards (?)" seems even more unreasonable. As we have noted before, ours is almost the only country in which this would even be happening. I truly do not understand why these bottom feeders are even allowed inside a courtroom. It would help of course if the yellow press would change their stripe and tell the complete story, rather than just the most heinous and headline grabber. You would think that other groups, especially youth serving, would be doing all they could to aid the BSA, as it will move to them too soon enough, as the GS already have found; along with at least one youth study group in university research.

I simply want to know if this is the original Beavah posting? If so, great to see you are still keeping the eye on things.

(Comment) The fact that she thinks having earned Eagle Scout in 20 months means she's gotten everything possible out of the program does not say great things about her mindset with regards to participating in scouts. Though I'll admit this viewpoint isn't exactly uncommon. While I cannot vouch directly for this specific young woman, my overall observation to date on those in this "special category" of Eagle candidates almost all are from long established Scouting families with traditions that they often had to view from the outside. But many families in these situations simply let the female children participate as they could, without the official recognition. Many of those young women have shown themselves to be head and shoulders above the male candidates we see. These young women were already getting more from the program than many male youth. It will all shake out in time, just as most transitions tend to do. Then many will look back and make comments about why are today's young female scouts seemingly not as bright as the the earliest ones. When push and shove come into play, it is not really much different than our experience with previous youth. Some are highly motivated and balk at barriers, sometimes pushing us to our limits, but great Scouts. Others are not likely to advance far without the interference of adults that do not understand the intent of the program. IF most of them come out of it with a positive experiences and have a better grounding in the foundational tenets, then we have accomplished our goal. It has little to do with rank, but rather "Character".