skeptic

I am not qualified to put any figure into such a column, as it is all subjective and will vary dependent on the severity as seen by hopefully a majority. Certainly, one would think that yours, for example, should be far greater than the person that has no real validation and was simply "touched" in some manner. Related, but nowhere near the level of yours. Personally, I would be more comfortable with a "negligence" amount for BSA, and an effort to locate the actual perpetrator, if still alive, and prosecute them fully. But that is not likely to happen, as if they even are alive, they do not likely have that proverbial "deep pocket". My perspective is skewed in that I am not a victim/claimant, and I simply cannot see anyway to clearly identify the apple and the orange. Later. Back again to trying to fill out an impossible BSA form for an OA election.

They may be there, but on what are they based? Do you feel that they are valid, or even close to valid? My point is that it is impossible to make that data fair to all, or even often to some. Sort of like the insurer with his chart on losing say three fingers. If the victim is a pianist or other type of digital musician is the payout as fair as for someone that is not? No, most would agree. Should we go to the plan of the proverbial farmer that says to the guy that ran over his hen; "you need to pay me for the ten years of eggs she will not lay"? While the industry may have the "tables", the judge and or jury will often tell them tough luck. We think it should be this. Ultimately, the dog catches its tail and bites it, then yelps because he caught it.

Once more we are confronted with the conundrum of statistics. One can select the data one chooses, and then build a case for whatever result is desired in their premise. And, based on the selected base data, it appears accurate. Yet, in a broader sample, a different conclusion might be determined, or if the comparisons are not the same categorically, we also find an alternate outcome. What IS a reality is that sexual abuse of youth is a universal problem, and one that is viewed in numerous ways in different societies and cultures, now and in the past. Is Scouting safer than some other youth group? There appears to be many indicators that would suggest that. But there are also other data sets that contradict that premise. We cannot rewrite history, but we CAN and SHOULD use it to reorient our direction. Instead of beating the horse, which is already in bad shape, we need to help it recover and do all we can to not let it get into that condition again. Along with this, we need to arrive at as "equitable" and "rational" method of compensating the "verified" abused, understanding and accepting that we cannot fix the trauma, no matter what the monetary salve may be. It is likely that most of the claimants will not agree on what that monetary figure is, nor will that do much for the emotional issues included in the occurence(s). Emotional/psychological injuries are not the same as physical ones. Insurance table often list various physical traumas in their coverage tables; loss of a limb is so much; loss of only part of a limb, so much; and so on. But they are not able to have concrete amounts for the emotional, and it comes down often to a judge and/or jury. And those decisions are unlikely to be agreeable to many either. And, when you are attempting to pass out "blame" beyond the actual perpetrator, where does that end, and who ultimately determines the magnitude of that blame? I understand that many will accuse me of somehow trying to make excuses, and that is their view. To me, we are now in the position of the dog chasing its tail.🙄

I have a small little booklet that apparently was offered by B.L. at some point. It is called Green Bar Bill's Cookbook, and is about 5 inches by 2 and 3/4; 30 pages with a few small illustrations. Basic stuff, but interesting. Does anyone know when this might have been offered? There is no date.

It is my understanding that each Local Council is its own NP in the state in which it resides. They are separate NP corporations. If someone can show me where that is not accurate, please do.

I will not reiterate my own previously shared observations from 20 years of subbing, many in middle school. My personal thought is that they base the idea of conflict in leadership on questionable psychological opinions that were arrived at with targeted studies that were likely weighted for a specific opinion. I am not overly trusting of most so called studies, as they generally are far too small and often do not hold water in real life. And we are all living in real life.

Not accurate if the discussed option is in place, as the CO becomes the local council and they do have the tax status. However, this discussion is skewed in that not ALL the Methodist churches are represented by the people that published the noted letter. Again, refer back to the link already shared here from the main part of the Church, the Methodist Men, that indicate continued support. The the title might be more accurate if changed to "Some" Methodist Churches.

So, it appears that this led to the actual perpetrator being arrested, as it should. Note that there is mention of other reports, and they do not appear to be related to BSA. Just saying; where is the disconnect? Or will they now lead to another similar circus beyond the actual perp?

I would think that if it is discontinued december 2021, that is the answer?

If you responded to any of the several come-ons for the "registry/book", you likely are in one or more. Mine was only partially accurate, and then later it got closer. Still is not totally since my council has been gone since about 1970 or so.

"I'm just saying let's temper our accusations with fact, history and context." Yes, maybe we ALL should do that. Of course, that means we need to make comparisons to the larger society as well, and, at least the one referenced study linked earlier would indicate that BSA has done a better job than most, and that in wider context, its program was safer than many other comparable involvements. But that cannot become the standard, even though the completely safe status is basically impossible, more awareness and NOT ignoring the guidelines is imperative. The study referenced should also be looked at by other youth serving groups, and the public safety organizations and become an incentive for them to also do a far better job.

Thank you for the more focused info; so the larger file is the IVF, but within it there are sub files, one of which is P and another M, both which play into the larger issue.

Two questions. Who gave you the files to read, and were you able to review completely at random. Those that have reported on the files in depth note that they are not all about abuse, though many are. Leave it at that, as it is obvious that you were given selected files.

My opinion of Mr. K has no reflection on your personal tragedy, It does not take away the reality of what you have suffered, nor does it suggest that your personal experience is not worth a valid response. But, as has been thrown all around, what is it worth? You have admitted that it is the recognition of the wrong that is important, not the level of payout, which is what Mr. K only cares about, based on his actions statements. Just as you note that I know nothing about your suffering, other than what you have shared. That does not mean that my opinion of the larger picture is invalid, only that nothing anyone does will ever cure your damage. It also does not mean that I, or many others may not have suffered unredeemable pain in some manner, just not related to this monstrous kind. Most, if not all, have had their moments of pure emotional trauma and carry a dark spot in our hearts. Punish the actual perpetrator to the nth degree, and that is not even a question. But, do not try to correct the larger problems of a warped society by ruining an overall good organization by painting them as the monster in the room. They made huge mistakes and many had bad judgement, but as discussed ad infinitum, that is reflective of the larger society in place then, and a change in that view today. But please do not make those of us that choose to look at the picture from a broader view and do not want the baby thrown out with the water as the bad guys. I hope you can somehow find the help you really need, but I doubt that the worst scenario with this fiasco will do much to cure it. Good luck.

It is an opinion based on his general history and the long media blitz he engineered. You can take it as you choose, but to me, his actions are those of someone with personal gain as the goal and to hell with the total truth. It was him that dubbed the "Ineligible Volunteer" files as the "Perversion" files and pushed the media to not tell anywhere near the complete picture. The truth that many of the files had little or nothing to do with abuse of any type, but were for other things; but that was conveniently left out with his skewed attacks. That one word, perversion, likely has done more damage than anything else,, even if it tells very little of the realities within those file,s. Not saying he should not have won, only that the level of hype and amount of the payout was onerous and extreme. But, that is the way of our legal system for many things. An insurance policy for injury may specify, for example, $x amount for the loss of X. But, if the right lawyer gets to it, it often can grow to ten times that or more, all based on playing on the sympathy of a jury and the current atmosphere of the public exposure. And, he is that kind of lawyer, or was anyway. Not sure he is one now, which in itself is part of the larger picture. We have no boundaries on many lawsuits, and too often they draw media hype to the extreme and end up being totally out of perspective and common sense. Again, just my view of him and our legal system. And it does not help when a judge is swayed to the bounds of logic and perspective.

Please. The man has done nothing noble. He simply played the system to his benefit by praying on vague innuendo and the media hype to find a sympathetic jury and judge in the past. But, you all know what I really think, I just cannot say it. Carrion.

Any doubters now abou Mr. Kosnoff being a crook? It was obvious from day one to me that he is not a standup person, but only greedy and for whatever reason wants to ruin BSA. Maybe he did not catch a snipe long ago, or found out that smoke shifters are only jokes.

Just for info or reminder. I checked today with the Corporate KOA people, and they sent me this link regarding scouts. Note, they do mention that not all locations may participate, though they are so encouraged. Check with your particular location to assure you know the details. https://koa.com/scout-camps/ As some may remember, KOA was founded by an Eagle and recipient of the DEA. I met him at the 2010 Jamboree. Not pushing KOA, just offering the info for those that may not know.

Interesting discussion, and some good observations, especially on societal time frames and misconceptions. Most of us born in the previous century likely have different perspectives much of the time. Then, there are personal things some of us have developed and many friends and even others find fun and interesting, or simply annoying. I became an inveterate punster at a fairly early age, likely settled in by mid high school. It was part of me, and most people either waited for me to do it, or they simply smiled and groaned. It really never occurred to me that puns can also get out of hand or out of bounds, especially when dealing with youth. I learned a hard personal lesson while subbing years ago in that regard. My last name is fish, and I have lived with that certain level of teasing and name funning my entire life. Puns may have evolved partly from that, as I became aware of other surnames that could "be funny" in certain contexts. But, you do not ever want to even joke like that to a young child, as they are not yet ready to necessarily see the difference or appreciate the "fun". I realized that when a 4th or 5th grader had the courage to tell me it bothered him. I apologized and also consciously became aware of watching spontaneous puns in relation to people's names. I also apologized to the class and explained why I was wrong, even telling them that if I did slip, they should tell me and they were allowed to make fun of my name then once. The main thing here is being aware, and also open to apologies and hopefully positive corrective measures. As far as smoke shifters go, we use it as a group joke at times, including demonstrating the method of right hand and left hand holding the shifting device. Kids still are more receptive to simple fun than we may think.

Yes, a newby, not even yet tenderfoot, scout at my first COR held at the sprawling Santa Anita Park in Arcadia in spring of 1955, I spent a lot of time looking for both the smoke shifter and the bacaon stretcher. Looking back, I just chuckle, though am not sure I was chuckling much then, but I did only encounter "helpful" scouters and scouts along the two hour or so search. The fun memory now is that a nice ASM kindly took be over by his fire and told me to take of my vintage service cap and hold it in my left hand. Then he showed me how to wave it at the smoke to "shift" it; then finally told me to put it in my right hand, and asked me what I now had? He sent me along with no help on the bacan stretcher. As the time and memory goes, I soon encountered another r friendly scouter that said he would show me their stretcher, but that they had only the one, and it was in use; and it was. Some type of hook and spring getup they had designed. Think I should try to do that sometime, but have not ever gotten to it. 🙃

"Should I be fetching a smoke-shifter?" Guess it depends if it is a left or right handed one? Do we need to delve out another fifty yards of shoreline" Can we find someone to stretch the bacon (or pork)? Is there a snipe involved here?

Interesting thoughts. One thing that struck me, was the suggestion that somehow the CO's opinions or tenets "might somehow be pushed aside". I could not help but wonder how if the CO of Mr. Dale's unit had been allowed to make the decision, for their unit, and let it go on, if we might be in a far better position today? After all, it is my understanding that they knew full well about Mr. Dale and had no issue. Just saying. Too many cooks seem appropriate here?

This summary related to various BSA efforts to make leaders, parents, and youth more aware of abuse issues is interesting. https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/youth-protection/100-years-of-enhancing-efforts-to-protect-youth/ Based on this, certainly the shared info on the one lawsuit content that states "prior to 2010" is inaccurate, as are statements that no effort was made to communicate with parents, leaders, and so on. They also inserted the first Parent Guide in the handbook in 1990 and it was "in theory" reviewed by the parent(s) and scout as part of the joining requirement. As noted by one of the online historians of the Handbook, most copies he has seen indicate they were likely not used by most families, based on their not being detached and showing no wear. Obviously, Scouting Magazine would not have been seen by parents if not a registered adult. And, if the scouts were not encouraged to review and read the Boys' Life material on the subject, that too would have likely not been particularly helpful. And, we all likely recognize that may not have been something most youth would voluntarily read at that point in their lives. On the other hand, to say that BSA made little or no effort to combat this issue is fairly obviously not accurate either. Errors in judgement on all levels, lack of prioritizing the information as required (though verifying is difficult), lax follow ups in many cases for whatever reasons, many common in the wider culture at the time, and the fact that predators cannot absolutely be stopped, all contributed and still contribute today. So, it continues to be a morass of confusing and often contradictory information and efforts. I would ask any of the "victims" after 1990 if they recall having reviewed the insert in their Handbook with a parent or guardian, or did they even look at it, even if not with a parent? That is simply a question, not an accusation or excuse.

Okay. According to the book, Lone Scout; W.D. Boyce and American Scouting, by Janice A. Petterchak, Boyce was in London on business and preparing for an African trip when the incident occurred. Here is the pertinent page from the book.

Actually, someplace in the 90's I think, it was reproduced in the museum store in Dallas, including a replica of the old square necker. I have that in my stuff I think, as well as the original. It very well may be on one of the discs available on the net of older material. I keep talking about going to a yardage store and getting some good, but inexpensive material from the discount gable and cutting them into full square size. Maybe I could get the church quilters to hem them. Then, get some simple wood blocks and challenge the scouts carve a slide as well, or teach them to make woggles.