skeptic

I would think that if it is discontinued december 2021, that is the answer?

If you responded to any of the several come-ons for the "registry/book", you likely are in one or more. Mine was only partially accurate, and then later it got closer. Still is not totally since my council has been gone since about 1970 or so.

"I'm just saying let's temper our accusations with fact, history and context." Yes, maybe we ALL should do that. Of course, that means we need to make comparisons to the larger society as well, and, at least the one referenced study linked earlier would indicate that BSA has done a better job than most, and that in wider context, its program was safer than many other comparable involvements. But that cannot become the standard, even though the completely safe status is basically impossible, more awareness and NOT ignoring the guidelines is imperative. The study referenced should also be l

Thank you for the more focused info; so the larger file is the IVF, but within it there are sub files, one of which is P and another M, both which play into the larger issue.

Two questions. Who gave you the files to read, and were you able to review completely at random. Those that have reported on the files in depth note that they are not all about abuse, though many are. Leave it at that, as it is obvious that you were given selected files.

My opinion of Mr. K has no reflection on your personal tragedy, It does not take away the reality of what you have suffered, nor does it suggest that your personal experience is not worth a valid response. But, as has been thrown all around, what is it worth? You have admitted that it is the recognition of the wrong that is important, not the level of payout, which is what Mr. K only cares about, based on his actions statements. Just as you note that I know nothing about your suffering, other than what you have shared. That does not mean that my opinion of the larger picture is inva

It is an opinion based on his general history and the long media blitz he engineered. You can take it as you choose, but to me, his actions are those of someone with personal gain as the goal and to hell with the total truth. It was him that dubbed the "Ineligible Volunteer" files as the "Perversion" files and pushed the media to not tell anywhere near the complete picture. The truth that many of the files had little or nothing to do with abuse of any type, but were for other things; but that was conveniently left out with his skewed attacks. That one word, perversion, likely has done more

Please. The man has done nothing noble. He simply played the system to his benefit by praying on vague innuendo and the media hype to find a sympathetic jury and judge in the past. But, you all know what I really think, I just cannot say it. Carrion.

Any doubters now abou Mr. Kosnoff being a crook? It was obvious from day one to me that he is not a standup person, but only greedy and for whatever reason wants to ruin BSA. Maybe he did not catch a snipe long ago, or found out that smoke shifters are only jokes.

Just for info or reminder. I checked today with the Corporate KOA people, and they sent me this link regarding scouts. Note, they do mention that not all locations may participate, though they are so encouraged. Check with your particular location to assure you know the details. https://koa.com/scout-camps/ As some may remember, KOA was founded by an Eagle and recipient of the DEA. I met him at the 2010 Jamboree. Not pushing KOA, just offering the info for those that may not know.

Interesting discussion, and some good observations, especially on societal time frames and misconceptions. Most of us born in the previous century likely have different perspectives much of the time. Then, there are personal things some of us have developed and many friends and even others find fun and interesting, or simply annoying. I became an inveterate punster at a fairly early age, likely settled in by mid high school. It was part of me, and most people either waited for me to do it, or they simply smiled and groaned. It really never occurred to me that puns can also get out of hand

Yes, a newby, not even yet tenderfoot, scout at my first COR held at the sprawling Santa Anita Park in Arcadia in spring of 1955, I spent a lot of time looking for both the smoke shifter and the bacaon stretcher. Looking back, I just chuckle, though am not sure I was chuckling much then, but I did only encounter "helpful" scouters and scouts along the two hour or so search. The fun memory now is that a nice ASM kindly took be over by his fire and told me to take of my vintage service cap and hold it in my left hand. Then he showed me how to wave it at the smoke to "shift" it; then fin

"Should I be fetching a smoke-shifter?" Guess it depends if it is a left or right handed one? Do we need to delve out another fifty yards of shoreline" Can we find someone to stretch the bacon (or pork)? Is there a snipe involved here?

Interesting thoughts. One thing that struck me, was the suggestion that somehow the CO's opinions or tenets "might somehow be pushed aside". I could not help but wonder how if the CO of Mr. Dale's unit had been allowed to make the decision, for their unit, and let it go on, if we might be in a far better position today? After all, it is my understanding that they knew full well about Mr. Dale and had no issue. Just saying. Too many cooks seem appropriate here?

This summary related to various BSA efforts to make leaders, parents, and youth more aware of abuse issues is interesting. https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/youth-protection/100-years-of-enhancing-efforts-to-protect-youth/ Based on this, certainly the shared info on the one lawsuit content that states "prior to 2010" is inaccurate, as are statements that no effort was made to communicate with parents, leaders, and so on. They also inserted the first Parent Guide in the handbook in 1990 and it was "in theory" reviewed by the parent(s) and scout as part of the joining requirement. As note

Okay. According to the book, Lone Scout; W.D. Boyce and American Scouting, by Janice A. Petterchak, Boyce was in London on business and preparing for an African trip when the incident occurred. Here is the pertinent page from the book.

Actually, someplace in the 90's I think, it was reproduced in the museum store in Dallas, including a replica of the old square necker. I have that in my stuff I think, as well as the original. It very well may be on one of the discs available on the net of older material. I keep talking about going to a yardage store and getting some good, but inexpensive material from the discount gable and cutting them into full square size. Maybe I could get the church quilters to hem them. Then, get some simple wood blocks and challenge the scouts carve a slide as well, or teach them to make

Reading some of this, I was reminded of local experience. Over my tenure with our unit, the past 40+, we have had likely a dozen non parental or unknown adults try to join. We have always made sure they were not interacting directly with kids while "visiting", and as soon as possible they were interviewed by other established leaders. IF they balked in any way at the references, or now the required background checks and so on, they were politely told they were not welcome. None of them reappeared, though one did make it into another unit but was almost immediately "dropped" and added to th

For the most part, this subject was hushed and Not discussed, and authorities also chose to not believe or make excuses because so and so was a good guy, as most knew. Parents often chose to not press the issue due to the embarrassment and community tendency to call it he said, he said or it is a kid making things up. It was not right, but that was the world most of us live in. Now, when it did actually get beyond the disbelief and was taken seriously, the laws were not yet particularly strong, and reinforced to some extent the idea of not believing. Again, unless their was absolute proof,

We need to clarify that there are now two groups of Methodists, and they are not in agreement. However, the traditional support of Scouting, the Methodist Mens' group, still supports the program. Please be aware of this. See this FB group. https://www.facebook.com/MethodistScouting/photos/a.128216575250845/582219489850549

And there lies the rub. Any suggestion that there might be some lack of accuity over time is somehow blaming the victim. We saw that in the deplorable side show in the Kavanaugh hearings. I am not yet senile enough to not continue to see the probability of some enhancements over time of traumatic and also amusing incidents in life. So, let me go back to being a skeptical realist, trying to see through the glass clearly when the prism is clouded. Nuf said.

No, we should not be going back there, we should be trying to determine the truth. As noted, the way the article is written, it is almost impossible to see it as not exaggerated at least. HOW could someone be repeatedly abused and subjected to being put in a shallow grave and urinated upon by the group without any of it coming out? Something happened to traumatize him, but the level of depravity, while possible, seems almost beyond the pale. Maybe I am simply too much of a skeptic, and have seen too many stories that have been "stretched" for whatever reason, to not see some doubt in this

Sorry, but the level of depravity partially shared here approached the same tenor that took over the McMartin episode. And, what is not determined is IF the victim ever did report anything. He claims it was at the hands of the leader and his son, yet are there others from the period that reported anything? And, if the terrible series of attacks and the trauma that resulted was not actually brought to the attention of anyone, what exactly should have resulted? We are surely not seeing the whole picture, and again, the media is taking the "story" as gospel and not even attempting to view it

I am confused as to how Mr. Kosnoff can be posting as a legal individual if he is no longer a lawyer, as was, I believe was posted on this forum. He can I guess call himself whatever he chooses, but is he more technically posing as an officer of the court in some capacity, without a legal right? Just asking.

Maybe it has a lot to do with the actual scouting that is the norm, not the deviant outliers. Scouts do public patriotic ceremonies in many places; Scouts contribute thousands of hours of community service outside of the Eagle projects; Scouts are often called upon by the wider community for assistance in special events; Scouts and Scouting in 99+% of community visibility is a positive and worthwhile example. Maybe there are more people that understand the the anomalous hyper scandal is NOT the norm for the larger group, and understand that it is far more beneficial to their communities than