shortridge

Day camp is not "summer camp" in the context of this thread. Most day camps are held off-site, at private campgrounds, colleges, state parks, etc. - non-council properties. This thread is about council-owned camps. You can't compare day camp to a real summer camp. I'm sorry about your experiences with your council, but not every place is like that.

OK, this begs a few questions. Sorry if it seems like I'm harping on this, but I'm really now more confused than ever before. 1. What evidence do you have that FOS does *not* support camperships? 2. Is your district a separate nonprofit organization from your council? Now to discuss. I'm no expert on council operations, but districts are generally part and parcel of councils. They're not separate organizations. So if you're writing a check to your DE, chances are that the money is ending up in the coffers of the council you dislike. The DE doesn't work for the district, he works for the council. He usually doesn't get credit for raising money (a substantial part of his job) unless the money goes to the council. So you might want to ask some questions and rethink that strategy. Also, could you explain or clarify your earlier statement that summer camps are run by unpaid volunteers? I'm still trying to wrap my head around that. I think your understanding of how summer camps work is incorrect.

Basement, I'm not sure what you mean re: camperships. Are you saying that your council says FOS isn't used for camperships? What does your reference to transparency mean? My point was simply that if someone objects to a lack of funding for camperships, withholding donations isn't going to solve that problem. Simply make your donation contingent upon it being allocated directly to camperships, and encourage all your friends to do the same. That way you know it's not going to a $2,000 office chair to cushion the SE's derriere or something.

First: Your council is not going to be publishing its camp-specific budgets online. (Does your local YMCA publish its branch budgets online?) You'd have to ask the council office for them directly. It's not clear that you've done that; if you have and they've said no, you might have a legitimate beef. Second: The thread I linked to was an attempt to get an estimate about the actual costs of running a camp, not provide "official numbers." Remember that each camp is different. Some may be owned by a private trust and leased by the council. Some may have 30 lodges, requiring more of a maintenance budget, while others just have primitive campsites. Some camps may have a specific independent endowment for upkeep. Making broad generalizations is problematic. Third: I'm not sure where you got the idea that BSA camps are run by "unpaid volunteers." Some camp programs may be volunteer-run in your neck of the woods, such as a Trail to Eagle week or a special Venturing expedition. But the vast majority of summer camps require paid staff to run for the entire summer. It would be impossible to put together a quality program based on the intermittent schedules of volunteers. You need program instructors, food service staffers, first-aiders, maintenance workers, and enough over-18 and over-21 people who can take a week before camp and go to National Camp School. And those staffers work for fairly cheap, too. Even with room (a tent or cramped cabin) and board (the same food campers eat), every one of them could make more money at the local fast-food chain over the summer. They are not highly-paid professionals at the council offices, but high school and college students, teachers and retirees who love Scouting and their camp. Fourth: You decry the lack of camperships, but then refuse to donate to support that cause. I'm a bit confused by your logic. You do know that you can make a donation designated solely for the campership fund, right? That way your money won't go to the new pool or camp staff salaries or any other area you find objectionable.

Eagle: I don't know if this is new, but it's from the U.S. Department of Labor ... Youth under 16 years of age may not be employed as lifeguards at natural environment facilities such as rivers, steams, lakes, ponds, quarries, reservoirs, wharfs, piers, or ocean-side beaches. -- www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs60.htm Darn, I love swimming in the local steam, too.

To make your case for staff support and time, take a look at your council's OA lodge membership numbers and compare them to the number of youth in the Venturing crews. The lodge gets a professional staff adviser who spends part of his or her time solely on the OA. When your Venturing numbers get to the same level as the OA, you've got ammo to ask for a dedicated, part-time professional.

momof2cubs: Check out this past thread on camp costs to get an idea of the actual expenses. It's far more than you might think. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=236924 "And even assuming that what you say is true, I don't believe that the funds are managed appropriately either." So your attitude is that no council can ever manage its camp funds properly? As for the pool upgrade: It's entirely possible that state or local regulators required it to be upgraded or overhauled for safety and/or environmental reasons. Did you ask?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Desertrat said just what I was thinking about the keys to a good camp. Bravo. However, running a physical site of any sort is a money pit, whether it's an air-conditioned office building or a summer camp. Taxes, insurance, building maintenance, plumbing and septic regulations, vehicle upkeep, site security, business licenses, electrical work, record-keeping ... and if you offer summer programs (or if you have people at your office during business hours), you have to add a myriad of staff costs. The vast majority of those costs are not passed on to the campers. Thus, donations. Think of it this way. The core program activity of any organization is always going to be the biggest-ticket item in the budget, simply because that's the emphasis. If BSA were the BCN (Boy Computer Nerds), most of its budget would be devoted to computers. (And I'm sure someone, somewhere would complain that the server room and computer labs were money pits, because they need to be replaced every few years and they're soooo expensive. )(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Eagle Foot wrote: "Normally we say leave your phones at home...why?...is what our camporee staff is now asking ourselves.. ... I am coming to you...yes you on the forum in all of your wisdom and ideas... ... What's your thoughts?" I know you also asked specifically for event ideas, but you first asked for wisdom and thoughts. Don't get yourself in a knot because you got wisdom and thoughts. If you're looking for event ideas, we really do need a good deal more information. What's the theme of the camporee? (Communications? Signaling?) Who's running it - SPLs or Scouters? Who are in charge of the stations - each troop? The OA? Scouters? Is it a round-robin style camporee, or some other format? What are the other activities already planned? Where is it located - a council camp, another wooded area, or the local airport runway? (Done it.) Are the PLs going to be carrying the phones with them throughout, or just using them at one or two stations? Clarity is key.

Two additional thoughts: >> Since you're only talking about texting being involved for one or two events, the staff can provide the cell phones, and the Scouts can show off their texting skills. >> As for the Facebook page, FB requires members to be 13+. Make sure you're not excluding some younger Scouts (or non-FB-using Scouters).(This message has been edited by shortridge)

FWIW, this thread dates to 2009, and the OP hasn't posted since that year.

duplicate post, sorry(This message has been edited by shortridge)

FWIW, this thread dates to 2009, and the OP hasn't posted since that year.

Codes and messages can be a really neat and fun part of Scouting. But consider trying semaphore, Morse or a simple substitution cipher if you want them to be a part of the camporee program. Those will be brand-new skills to most of your Scouts. They'll be fascinated by the low-tech means and methods, trust me. And they'll be better prepared for when the power goes out ...

Gary - The Varsity Team Handbook doesn't seem to exist any more - at least not on ScoutStuff - is that roughly the same as the Varsity Scout Guidebook? http://www.scoutstuff.org/varsity-scout-guidebook.html

Even when Varsity teams play more traditional sports, LNT principles can still apply. Ask question such as: How can you minimize the impact on a soccer field from cleats and field markings? How can fishermen practice LNT? What's a low-impact way to set up an archery range, or the best location for a portable volleyball net on a campout? ... etc.

The problem with that, emb, is that BSA is not a membership organization - it is a youth-serving organization. Less like the Freemasons, Kiwanis and Elks, and more like the B&G Clubs or Big Brothers/Big Sisters. The former aren't designed to deal with two levels of "membership," youth and adult. They'd have the same problems if they tried to attract youth members.

It was in the reboot of the G2SS: Mandatory Report of Child Abuse All persons involved in Scouting shall report to local authorities any good faith suspicion or belief that any child is or has been physically or sexually abused, physically or emotionally neglected, exposed to any form of violence or threat, exposed to any form of sexual exploitation including the possession, manufacture, or distribution of child pornography, online solicitation, enticement, or showing of obscene material. No person may abdicate this reporting responsibility to any other person. Notify your Scout executive of this report, or of any violation of BSAs Youth Protection policies, so that he or she may take appropriate action for the safety of our Scouts, make appropriate notifications, and follow-up with investigating agencies.

Just off the wires ... From the Associated Press: NEW YORK (AP) The Boy Scouts have labored for decades to curtail sexual abuse of scouts by adult volunteers. But when their name was evoked in a lawsuit linked to the Penn State abuse scandal, the reference was not to problems it was acknowledgment that the Scouts' current prevention policies are considered state of the art. While the local youth charity in the Penn State case has been accused of lax policies, experts in abuse prevention say most of the national organizations serving young people such as the Boy Scouts of America, Big Brothers Big Sisters, the YMCA, and Boys & Girls Clubs of America have performed commendably in drafting and enforcing tough anti-abuse policies even as they're sometimes faced with wily and manipulative molesters. "I'd give them all an A-plus," said Portland State University psychologist Keith Kaufman, who has studied and treated child sex abuse victims. If there's a systemic problem, Kaufman and other experts say, it's lack of data from the organizations themselves and from law enforcement agencies that could illustrate progress by youth groups. The Scouts, for example, said, "We simply do not track or have data that would help quantify trends." Story: http://bit.ly/x2UkwN(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Boys backing out from the trip shouldn't affect who cooks. The PL can create a new duty roster in 10 minutes using the Scouts who actually show up. It's not rocket science. If adults are using that as an excuse to take over cooking, they're the central problem.

In the discussion about standards and rules, we may lose sight of the other part of YP - education of the youth. I know the videos and sessions are incredibly awkward and amateurish, but they can help youngsters understand how a predator operates. Could a bit of education have helped some of the youth Sandusky allegedly preyed upon? Maybe. Let's hope it's working for our kids - and that they trust us enough to tell us if something happens to them.

kahits - Check in the OAHB. This statement from the OA website references the 2000 edition; I don't have the 2009 edition with me to get the page number. "Members of the OA may be official dues-paying (and, in the case of youth, voting) members of only one lodge, that being the lodge chartered to the council where they reside and have their principal Scouting Registration." (OA Handbook, p. 47, 2000 revision.) From www.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-41.htm

I don't think SP is talking about invites to specific programs, but rather just a general sharing of information and program ideas - themes - activities - projects - trips - visits - locations - tours - the nitty-gritty of Cubs. Is that right? Personally, I think we too often re-invent the wheel in this line of work. The official program materials have some ideas, but I've picked up far more from these forums, talking with friends, NCS training, etc. There ought to be some sort of clearinghouse for program ideas, and Roundtables would seem the perfect way to get the info to the front lines.

Most nonprofit organizations are required to make public their informational tax statements (not quite the same as a tax return), called IRS Form 990s. If you stop by a nonprofit's office and ask to see (or get a copy) of their most recent 990 (I believe for the last three years), they are required to give them to you (charging a nominal fee for copies). You can also get some forms online for free at www.guidestar.org. They don't show the same things as a budget, though. Expense categories may not match up with the actual council budget; some costs may be lumped in with other areas, so make sure you're comparing apples to apples. And many nonprofits, in my experience, file their 990s many months after the end of their fiscal year; they can get an extension pretty easily. So you may be looking at financial info that's two years old. One thing that the 990s do show you are the salaries of top executives, so you can keep an eye on your SE's compensation and compare it to donations and expenses. If spending on program has been going down, but the SE's salary has been going up, you might want to ask some questions, for example. P.S. The council would be the only group filing a 990 - not a district, which is just an internal division of the council. Some councils also have separate nonprofits set up just to run endowment funds.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

In some areas, it is a formal program, often known by other names. In some areas, it's not. But there's certainly nothing stopping a unit or a district from making its own thing. The council leadership may have other priorities. See these threads for some background and info that may help get one started: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=53688 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=295964 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=219045(This message has been edited by shortridge)