shortridge

s the AC paperpusher parent that i am i do not believe i would be doing my job corretly as teh AC or as a parent if i just turned a blind eye and allowed a scout to receive something he did not earn. But it's not your job. If anything, the issues you bring up should be the responsibility of the PL, SPL and SM, working as a program team. You are on the support side, not the program side. You can alert the program leaders that a Scout hasn't completed all the requirements, or hasn't put in enough time in his POR, or hasn't done enough overnights to qualify for the OA. But issues of quality control are not in your bailiwick, unless the SM has delegated those responsibilities to you. All that said - if the boys really did the requirements, they should be able to do them again. A quick demo on the next campout would not be out of line. So the SM, SPL and PL have a good way to backstop problems like this in the future and counteract helicopter parenting.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Right, but they should have the snailmail addresses on their sites. Makes for a laborious process, but it might be the best you can get. The other alternative would be to use a list of council numbers, if you can get them, and punch each in individually to the locator site, http://www.scouting.org/localcouncillocator.aspx

A partial list of websites: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/councils/all.aspx

I assume from the title of this thread that you are the advancement chairperson for the troop. No offense intended, but that means you are a paper-pusher, not some sort of guardian of advancement standards. Having the title of "advancement chair" does not set you up in a position of power over Scouts' advancement. That is part of the unit program, and as such is the Scoutmaster's and SPL's purview. Your job is to process the paperwork and maintain records, ideally working with the troop scribe and patrol leaders. That's it.

The question for me has always been "Why are adults doing something that the boys can do themselves?" That's the question everyone should be asking, and that I think Beavah (the only person here who uses the word "da" ) was trying to suggest. Do your scouts create a budget for each camp out? Sure. Do your scouts manage the camp out budget on an on-going basis? ... beyond knowing how much they can spend on food per person and managing it while shopping and filling out an expense report There are three basic categories of expenses - the site, food and transportation. What exactly needs to be "managed" on an "on-going basis"? Do your scouts research and cost out buildings and other price points? That's generally part of the PLC planning process, sure. Do your scouts produce financial summaries for camp outs? Beyond "Hey, we have $5 left over from food purchases" or "The canoe rental cost went up $2 between the time we checked and the time we went. Mr. Smith paid the $20 out of his pocket, so we need to pay him back" - what exactly is needed for these "summaries"? Does your adult troop treasurer NOT produce financial reports for events? And if not, should they be doing it? No, and no. Do your patrol leaders manage event sign up sheets? Yes. Why wouldn't they? Do your patrol leaders record attendance info? ... Not including the troop scribe taking attendance at troop meetings and patrol leaders organizing scouts forming patrol lines at different times and reporting their attendance while in those lines. Yes. Why wouldn't they? Does your adult troop advancement chair NOT track attendance in troopmaster or similar? Why would they, when the PL already tracks that? Does your an adult leader in your troop NOT track who's signed up for camp? Adults generally do track summer camp sign-ups and payments, because they usually involve larger amounts of money and interfacing with the council office. But regular outings, no. Does your troop NOT have an adult generated sign-up list used by the scoutmaster to know who should be there when leaving for camp? No. Why should they, when the PLs can do that? They know everyone in their patrols and who's supposed to attend, and can report that to the SPL at a moment's notice. Does your troop committee NOT approve dates and locations chosen by the PLC? No. Why should they? Program is the purview of the SM, and thus the PLC. The TC shouldn't be interfering. Do your scouts make facility reservations? Sometimes, but not when the facility requires a credit card. Does your troop committee (or at least the scoutmaster) NOT review and approve the major activities the scouts plan to do? The SM is in the room with the PLC, and that's when "review and approval" takes place. Program is his or her purview, not the TC's. Does your troop committee NOT provide feedback to the scoutmaster after SPL give the PLC report? Maybe. It depends. If someone wants to make a suggestion or compliment the SPL on the program or planning, then sure. ======= Edited: One area I might agree with you on, fred, is that adults should be collecting health forms. They contain a good deal of confidential, personal information, and families and Scouts might not want their friends to know certain details.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

"A safety geek just might identify and quantify this tidbit of info as part of the risk associated with homemade alcohol stoves and suggest other camp gadgets as alternatives." Oh, dear Lord. It's difficult to tell from your cryptic notes, Richard, but I hope you're not referring to yourself or anyone else in Irving. No one with that outlook has any business being involved with an organization known for fostering adventure and exploration in youth. OHHH Noes!!! People want to invent and experiment and create!!! They're going to DIEEEEE!!! DANGER DANGER DANGER!!!(This message has been edited by shortridge)

My daughter (age 7) recently drew a picture of a girl in a dress with swirly designs down her arms. I complimented her on the pretty designs on the sleeves of the dress. I was promptly informed they weren't sleeves, they were tattoos. She knows lots of adults who have them, she's grown up with those temporary tattoos, and to her they're already - to my fatherly dismay! - part of normal life.

I always thought Cycling was impressive enough on its own. It's already got a 50-miler in there. If your Scouts are looking for a challenge, search for "century" bike rides around you - they're often done as fundraisers for MS or other ailments.

Try http://gsleaders.org/files/thisthat.htm and http://usscouts.org/profbvr/fun_awards/

Summer camp staff members are certainly allowed to earn merit badges. But IMHO, there should be a few general principles involved: 1. The badges they earn should not in any way interfere with their job. If he was hired as a Scoutcraft instructor, he shouldn't be spending half his day hanging out at the swimming pool earning Lifesaving. But if he's assigned to help a Pioneering MB counselor teach that badge, which he doesn't have, he certainly should have earned it by the end of the first week. If he worked out an arrangement with the Handicrafts director to stop by in the evenings when he's off and work on Woodcarving, that's perfectly kosher. 2. If he was a counselor-in-training, they're often encouraged to earn the MBs they assist with - but they should be helping teach topics as well, not just serving as a "senior student." Being able to earn the badges is kind of a perk of the job when you're not getting paid. 3. Two badges a week sounds like a lot, especially when you're supposed to be working full-time. But consider that some badges may have been worked on after-hours, during siestas, etc. The staff member lives and bunks with other staff members, and there are plenty of opportunities to get signed off on requirements. 4. The Scout should have gone to his SM before camp started - or certainly when he was home after that first week - told him of the great opportunity he had to work on a number of MBs, and asked for some blue cards. At the very least, he could have called the SM up and asked for the verbal OK. All that said, there are perfectly legitimate reasons that the SM could have said "Errr, no. I'm not giving you the blue cards." If the camp has a reputation for being a MB mill, or if the SM knows that the counselors are not qualified (under 18), those are legit concerns. The SM is the gatekeeper here. Eagle732 - I assume you're the SM. You can certainly object here if you have concerns about quality and whether the Scout did the work. I would contact the camp director immediately if you do. Whether the camp director or staff allowed the Scout to skirt the MB approval process is a separate issue, and should be addressed separately. I wouldn't focus on that issue with the Scout - the senior staff probably told him "It's OK, we'll just sign that line for you," and he didn't think anything of it. However - if the Scout really did complete all those badges, he shouldn't really have a problem demonstrating those skills over again to a non-camp counselor.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Eagle 92 - That sounds utterly bizarre. Book reviews are clearly covered under fair use. Unless she was reprinting gigantic sections, that shouldn't have been a problem.

Something's not quite right here. Are we sure we're talking about the Ordeal, and not a call-out ceremony? If your son went through the Ordeal, his contact information should already have been on file with the lodge or chapter conducting the inductions. The candidates have to register, fill out a medical form, etc. No one just shows up without the inductions team knowing who they are. In addition, new members are given their sashes as part of the ceremony. They shouldn't have to get it separately, unless you're talking about buying an extra one. Your son should call your council service center and ask for contact information for the lodge inductions chairman or inductions vice-chief.

If AHG and BSA merge - and I think it highly unlikely - there will have to be some sort of local option in place. Otherwise, BSA will be adopting AHG's exclusionary ultra-conservative Christian approach, forcing all the Jewish, Islamic and Buddhist COs to take a hike. So BSA would be gaining 15,000 members of AHG in exchange for a firestorm of bad publicity and the death of interfaith good will. I certainly would not be able to participate in such a fused organization.

[A copyright post again. Skip if you're looking for Scoutcraft. Sorry.] As a writer and journalist, my livelihood largely depends on the interpretation of fair use. If I'm not allowed to quote short sections of reports, books or publications, that really restricts my ability to do my job. At the same time, I see daily how blogs, websites and other media outlets steal my and my colleagues' work without any regard for copyright or fair use. Books pose a different situation. Just because something's out of print doesn't mean it's fair game for anyone. I were the author of a book, I would definitely want to control my copyright even after its first printing, and there are a lot of reasons why. I could find a new publisher for a second printing; I might want to update it into a new edition; I could repackage the material into an online venture; etc. The author of that book worked hard to create that content, and just because not many people bought it and it went out of print doesn't mean they should lose control of it. Are *we* the BSA? Sure, we're all members. But we can't claim we're the corporation and thus have a legal right to the copyright. That's absurd. Could copyright terms stand to be shortened? Absolutely, I believe. The current length is rather long; there are a very small number of books out there from 100 or 90 or 80 years ago that are still in print and still selling. But the law at its core is exactly what's needed to protect creative workers.

I'm a little unclear what you're asking. Certainly, you can buy and sell or trade or give away whatever items you want, whether it be books or shirts. Copyright infringement enters the realm when you're copying the information and putting it out there in a form or manner unauthorized by the copyright holder. You can sell a used book to a friend, or give one to a Scout. The copyright holder gave the OK to a book publisher to produce it in that form. What you can't do is scan the book, reprint it and give it away or sell it, unless you have the copyright owner's permission.

[This post deals with copyright law. Skip it if you're only interested in Scoutcraft.] RememberSchiff: I think you're reading that section of the code incorrectly. The entirety of Section 107 lays out four factors for fair use that all have to be considered. You can't pick and choose. In addition to the factor you listed, there's also: >> the nature of the copyrighted work; >> the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and >> the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The first part of 107 gives examples of fair use purposes which, while not inclusive, provide us with some guidance: "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research." (Source: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.pdf) And the U.S. Copyright Office gives two other examples pertinent to this situation: >> reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy >> reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson (Source: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html) Thus, if you want to make copies of sections or pages from old books to hand out at your IOLS course or to your troop, that's generally OK - it's using a "portion" of the work for "nonprofit educational purposes." But putting the whole thing out there for the public to snag, even for free? Sorry, Papadaddy - I'd love the idea, personally, but that's not kosher. As to Eagle92's point about how the BSA has put the current edition of the Fieldbook online for free: The format of the copyrighted work, or the fact that the copyright holder isn't charging for it, has no effect on copyright. It does not make it "open season" on the Fieldbook. And it especially does not open the door for wide distribution of previous editions that are still under copyright.

You'd be violating copyright. B-P's original Scouting for Boys just entered the public domain this year. The others have a long time to go.

I had two copies of the Fieldbook as a Scout - the third and first editions. Used them both - wonderful resource. My outdoor library has a bunch of other books, some better, some worse. I think we're doing others a disservice to suggest they can get everything they need from one source. Outdoor education isn't a static thing. Beavah - where did you hear that it's out of print? I know Amazon doesn't stock it, but that's not necessarily a good indicator. You can still order it through Scoutstuff. Or was there a formal announcement that I missed that it's not being updated? Wondering if perhaps the existing stock is being sold off while it's being updated, as another thread a while back suggested.

Forget it. Papadaddy, Twocubdad and Nike are spot-on. Please get some help.

I'm sorry for speaking so bluntly, but very little of this makes a lick of sense. I'm very, very sorry for your family, but no one here can help you. This is not a Scouting problem. What did the leaders and your son say when you accused the SM's wife of having ulterior motives? When you accused them of working behind your back? Of shutting your son out of your lives and perpetuating the rift? You had to have had some sort of a conversation with them about it to allow your husband and other sons to continue in the troop. Don't waste your energy ranting on an online board.

First: If the SM has done something to which you so strenuously object because it has hurt your family, remove your other sons from the unit immediately. You have no other option, given the facts you've presented. How can you possibly trust the leadership? Second: In about two minutes of Web searching (trying to figure out what a R&G was), I found a troop in your state that held such an event on the very afternoon that you posted. I don't know if that's your sons' unit, but my point is that "anonymous" posts rarely are. Your son's leaders - or your son himself - could very easily find your posts here. How would that alter your relationship with your son? Please think before you post more details. As before, I suggest refocusing your attention to your son and other children, away from Scouting at the moment. Your family needs you. Scouting can go on without you for a while.

If he's now over 18, there's nothing that you can legally do now. He's a grown adult, and can make his own choices. Some friendly advice: It strikes me that you're worrying more about your BSA membership being revoked and on the actions of the SM and CC than about your son's stint in the juvenile justice system. Refocus.

Agree with Twocubdad. His rank is not the most important issue, and to frame it as such suggests a complete and utter lack of perspective. His well-being and his family situation is.

Could be related to this: http://www.register-herald.com/local/x1929699630/Tomblin-wants-look-at-roads-infrastructure-for-Boy-Scouts

Of course, it doesn't work that weigh! Scoutfish, you're getting sent to the pits for that groaner.