shortridge

You"re the public. Instead of trying to find another way to needle an organization you know nothing about, why don't you just come out and ask them. Don't ask us, and don't make assumptions. They're not hard to find. Well, that didn't take long this time. Only three pages for an AHG supporter to say "Stop asking us those annoying questions that point out the gaping holes in our beloved organization!!!" AHGnBSAMom started this thread to discuss the AHG program. Well, sonofagun! - it turns out that even such basic things as the requirements for badges are secret, available only to registered AHG members. Not even the OA goes that far. So, I'll put it out there again: How can we discuss the program when the program materials are not publicly available? # # # These are the questions I recently submitted to the AHG national office. I'm not holding my breath about a response. I'd welcome any answers from folks in the know here. 1. Why is the Girls Handbook only available to registered members? 2. Why is the Leaders' section of your site only accessible to registered leaders? 3. Where can I find a list of the badge and level award requirements without having to purchase your program materials, to help me evaluate the program content and quality? 4. What training do you provide for adult leaders, particularly on outdoors, safety and youth-protection topics? 5. What resources does AHG provide to girls to help them learn about the badge topics? 6. What summer camp programs does AHG operate independently of other youth organizations? 7. Does AHG permit legal residents of the United States to become volunteers? Your website until recently included statements to the effect that only citizens were allowed to volunteer, and some volunteer forms remain available on the web that state that as well. I'm thus confused about AHG's policy on this topic, and why a ban on non-citizens volunteering was ever in effect in the first place. 8. Would my daughter, who is Jewish, be allowed to join an AHG troop without being proselytized to by the leader or other volunteers? Your website says that all girls are allowed to join, but also that adults must adhere to a Christian statement of faith, which creates a bit of a contradiction. What are local leaders instructed to do when non-Christian members want to join their troop? Are there ever explicitly Christian prayers offered at troop meetings or AHG events? Does AHG partner with non-Christian faiths to allow girls of other faiths to earn their religious awards, or are only Christian religious awards recognized? 9. Which is AHG first and foremost - a girls' scouting organization, or a Christian ministry?

Any callout ceremony I've been involved in lasted about 5 minutes and came near the end of the closing weekly campfire - hardly a takeover. It also helped as a way to calm down the raucousness of the skits & songs and transition into the CD's final remarks and Scout Vespers, sending everyone back to camp in a quiet, reflective mood.

Suggest to the PLC that the boys repeat the Oath and Law regularly as part of meeting openings and closings. It'll stick sooner or later.

Q&a session on workIng On staff just for OA members Service project with big food payoff - burger night, MYO sundae bar, pizza and wings Ceremonies training Brotherhood conversion session and ceremony

Knowing the details of a program - the requirements, the training, the activities - are all crucial to assessing and discussing it. Apparently, AHG regards those details as a closely-held secret, explaining why this thread took a literary turn. ============= Pack212Scouter, I asked: "Why is the Leader Portal online restricted to registered adults only?" You answered: While AHG sets itself aside as morally different than Girl Scouts, they are sensative to not wanting to directly have any battles. AHG recognizes the GSUSA's right to run their program as they see fit, and while they don't agree with it, they want to avoid as much as possible the immage of attacking GSUSA. Additionally, a large protion of AHG funding (as a fledgling organization) relies on funds from materials. This is the easiest way to prevent copying as well. You realize this makes absolutely no sense at all, right? What does the GSUSA have to do with AHG restricting access to its leader's materials? Are you saying that the Leader Portal contains a ton of information attacking GSUSA? And wouldn't AHG make *more* money by selling its handbooks and materials to everyone, instead of restricting them just to its members? I also asked: "Why are only registered members permitted to purchase the Girl Handbook?" You replied: Can't really answer this. I think to try to protect their intellectual property. As a comparatively small organization, much of the AHG policy revolves around avaoiding lawsuits as they do not have the millions of dollars that BSA has to combat them. Again, you realize this makes no sense, right? Selling a book to the public in no way diminishes your intellectual property rights. Nor does it expose you to a lawsuit, unless you stole the content from someone else. ============= AHGnBSAMom, When someone attempts to purchase the Girl Handbook, they are told: "This girl handbook can be purchased for registered members only." (http://store.ahgonline.org/cgi/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=629) Why can't I, as the parent of a girl eligible (you say) to be an AHG member, purchase and take a look at the handbook *before* she joins? Why won't AHG allow me to see the basic program materials and requirements prior to signing up? ============= SR540, No one is clinging to an obsolete form to show that AHG discriminates against legal immigrants. I'm simply pointing to two forms currently available on the AHG website that clearly, plainly and unequivocally require unit leaders/assistants and unit treasurers to be U.S. citizens: http://www.ahgonline.org/uploads/UnitLdrMinAgreemnt2_10.pdf and www.ahgonline.org/uploads/TroopTreasMinAgreemnt2_10.pdf If those forms are outdated as you claim, why hasn't AHG simply removed them from its site?

I think OGE just outgeeked us. Wikipedia sez: "Capote, an early 19th century winter coat made with a wool blanket such as a Hudson's Bay point blanket."

Eagle92: I was incorrect. My understanding has always been that having an NCS-trained commissioner was mandatory, but it's not (at least not now). Standard 81 (not mandatory): "At least one adult camp commissioner (at least 18 years of age) is on staff for every four units or campsites. These individuals may be assigned other duties. One commissioner must have a valid certificate of training from the Commissioner section of National Camping School or is a currently trained unit, district, or council commissioner." In my day, on a smaller staff, the commissioner's staff also used to be the Scoutcraft and First-Year Camper program instructors. We did campsite check-ins and check-outs, and one of us did campsite visits and inspections daily. The head commissioner was seen as third-in-charge of camp, after the CD and PD. Nowadays, that's all changed, as the staff has tripled in size. There's a separate commissioner's staff, the Scoutcraft and FYC staffs are separate, and there's an Assistant Program Director to fill the No. 3 role.

Troop camping trip at Assateague Island, Maryland. We were camped in a little spot fairly close to the water, with just a thin line of dunes in between. There were three of us in the extra-large tent, all older Scouts, and our tent was pretty much chaos by Saturday night. Clothes, shoes, gear strewn everywhere. We figured we'd just take some extra time Sunday morning and pack everything up, no biggie. Come Sunday morning, we were woken up early by an ASM yelling to us to get the bleep out of the bleeping bleep tent. A storm had come up and the winds were blowing so hard that the ASM had to stand on the edge of the bleeping tent while the three of us were scurrying around inside trying to pack our bleeping junk away. After sheepishly getting everything stowed and our tent packed away, we watched in silent awe as a still-standing tent from the Girl Scout troop across the road was picked up by the wind and tossed over the dunes like a baseball. The leader of that troop let out some very loud bleeps at that. Worst actual sleeping experience in a tent? Any humid summer night with no airflow, too many to count.

"A Camp Commissioner is an experienced Scouter who is an unpaid staff member at camp for a week or longer." Not always. It may be a younger Scouter (18+) who is paid. The position varies from camp to camp. The common denominator is that the head Commissioner has to attend National Camping School.

Goheelz - In my day, instructors HAD to develop a day-by-day lesson plan with a lot of detail, and they had to be approved by the area director. Sorry your boys had that situation, but that's not normal practice.

A few observations ... - The camp staff's attitude is set by the first five minutes they arrive in camp. If the CD and PD are hanging out in the office laughing about inside jokes with their buddies, and aren't organized ("You're in Cabin 12..., no, Tent 2 ... err ...") or welcoming ("Oh. Hey. Who are you?"), then that sets a poor tone for the whole of staff week. The CD and PD and their area directors need to be on the ball from day one. - Area directors and the senior staff in the living quarters need to be on the alert to make sure the younger staff is getting plenty of sleep and rest, not staying up until midnight or 1 a.m. watching movies and playing board or video games. - Area directors should have training not just in their subject matter, but in how to manage, deploy and even discipline staff. That's different from leading a troop or crew, and it wasn't something that NCS taught when I went through. - At least a day should be spent during staff week on teaching program staffers how to teach. (This is usually slimmed down to a few hours, if that.) Most young staffers will have only ever taught a small group or patrol of guys they know. This will likely be their first time up in front of an unfamiliar group trying to command their attention and keep it, which is a heck of a challenge for adults, let alone teenagers. They need to get advice in the proper way to deal with cut-ups and bored kids, in how to position your body when demonstrating a skill one-on-one vs. a group of 30+ Scouts, in the best way to do recordkeeping, etc. - Staff should be focused on the campers. It's fine to joke among yourselves; camaraderie is essential. But once the campers come down the trail, all that stops.

Those are all serious questions, by the way. I'd love to discuss the AHG program, but one apparently has to be a registered member of AHG to read the handbooks and requirements (or else fork over $60 for the unit starter kit!). I'm not sure how we're supposed to discuss the program based on a list of merit badge names.

AHG does not call itself a Scouting or scouting program. It calls itself a "scout-type" organization. However, it is first and foremost a Christian ministry. http://www.ahgonline.org/uploads/pr_AHG50percentgrowth_winter2011.pdf and http://ahgonline.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=19412

What are the badge requirements for each level? What resources does AHG provide to girls to help them learn about the topics? Is the learning model unit-based (leader signs off on everything) or subject-matter based (the BSA MBC model)? What are the requirements for the Level Awards? What summer camp programs does AHG operate independently of other youth organizations? What outdoor training does AHG offer to its leaders? Why is the Leader Portal online restricted to registered adults only? Why are only registered members permitted to purchase the Girl Handbook?

One to mention how Hitler or the Nazis changed light bulbs. One to invoke Godwin's Law. One to ask what Godwin's Law is. One to ask that the thread be closed because it's gone off-topic. One to point out that the original poster hasn't come back for three months. Ten to list their favorite kinds of pie. (Mine's pumpkin.)(This message has been edited by shortridge)

My unit and OA chapter sometimes offered swim tests, but they were always conducted by the CC/chapter adviser (same guy), a BSA Lifeguard. I don't ever remember the SM or associate adviser taking a role in that.

Woah! How's the air up there atop that tall equine, Beavah? We can only answer the questions and address the issues that are put in front of us, based on the information that is put in front of us. At no time are any of us under the illusion that we're getting the complete, total story. When we chat on a forum like this, there's always an understanding about the limitations of our perspective. But we do try to respond as best we can and offer the best advice that we can, nevertheless. I'm glad that that situation turned out just fine. But I certainly stand by my observations in that thread, and I'd make them again under similar circumstances. Directing parents to the YPT rules can never, ever be a bad thing.

"Feedback is a gift." I like that one, myself. http://www.psychotactics.com/blog/why-negative-feedback-is-a-gift/ I sent a comment to @AdvBSA with some advice about the content of their tweets. No response.

Federalist, You don't seem to understand what's wrong with a religiously tolerant organization partnering with and favoring a religiously exclusivist organization. I'm sorry that you don't get it, but I can't find a simpler way to explain it. Actually, what AHG has done with the citizenship requirement would be illegal if done by a private employer. It also goes against the BSA's own policies. Riddle me this: Legal permanent residents can serve in the military and die for our country, but they're not American enough to be treasurer of their daughter's AHG unit. How much sense does that make? That is a conscious, deliberate anti-immigrant policy. There's no defense for it, though I'd sure love to hear someone try.

Sorry, duplicate post.(This message has been edited by Shortridge)

Hate campaign? Really, SP. Surely you can do better than that! All of my criticisms of AHG are based in facts drawn from the organization's own words. I find it extremely telling that none of its defenders have been able to summon up credible explanations to refute them. ("Oh, stop whining, they've changed the policy" isn't a refutation.) It's the BSA that entered into the partnership, but it's AHG that has discriminated, misled and excluded. I'd like either group to stop - I don't care which. Nike is spot-on about AHG and self-sufficiency. Bravo.

Apologies in advance for the length. BDPT: Read the forms, and you will get it. I hope. The adult volunteer form that AHG stole from BSA is not what I'm referencing. I'm referring to several forms for specific positions in units. Two of them STILL ON THE AHG WEBSITE include the requirement that volunteers for those positions be citizens of the United States - legal residents not allowed. Here are the direct links ... better click 'em fast before AHG edits them out of existence. Unit Leader and Assistant Leader: http://www.ahgonline.org/uploads/UnitLdrMinAgreemt09(1).pdf Troop Treasurer: http://www.ahgonline.org/uploads/TroopTreasMinAgreemnt2_10.pdf Those forms are dated 2009 and 2010, respectively. When viewed in concert with the blanket citizens-only policy listed on the AHG FAQ as of last week, it is clear that this is not some policy that vanished five years back. AHG got caught and then tried to scrub away the evidence, plain and simple. To counter the inevitable free-association arguments: Sure, they have the right to restrict membership to whomever they want. No one is disputing that; that was the whole point of BSA's victory in Dale. And if you don't believe that banning legal residents from volunteering is anti-immgrant, fine. Just answer these questions honestly: --> Why should leaders of an American youth-serving organization be required to be citizens? --> What are possible valid reasons to ban legal residents from leadership positions? What makes legal residents inferior? --> How is banning legal residents from helping to lead their child's unit in keeping with the principles of Scouting? Federalist, 1. AHG was started in West Chester, Ohio. Thus the West Chester reference. 2. Baden-Powell's quote outlined his belief in religious tolerance as fundamental to Scouting. That is a belief that Scouting still holds dear, through the DRP, but in which AHG - its supposed partner - does not follow. With regards to the organization welcoming all girls, let me present some comments from AHG founder Patti Garibay that explain just what AHG is all about. This is not an open, inclusive Judeo-Christian organization that welcomes everyone, but an exclusively, explicitly Christian ministry whose views are anathema to people of other faiths. "Today's blog is dedicated to the beautiful children of Haiti and to our Father who loves each of us so much they He sacrificed His one and only Son so that all of us can have eternal life. ... It was also a great time of reflection during this season of joy, to realize that this is what it is all about - living the Christian life - loving God always and hoping to one day rest on the lap of Jesus in the home he has prepared for those who love him. ... "When you work in the ministry field as you do as an AHG volunteer, Satan is acutely aware of you and he will do whatever he can to put feelings of doubt, worthlessness and frustration into your heart. ... I thought of the love I have for the amazing army of AHG volunteers that serve the girls in their community. My soul yearns that they are blessed with God's infinite grace as they selflessly give and model Christian values to our girls- our future. ... So as we embark on the season of Lent with the knowledge of the Risen Christ to come ..." (Source: http://blog.ahgonline.org/ These are Garibay's own words, unaltered, taken from blog posts over the last 12 months.) How can a Jewish girl or a Muslim girl or a Hindu girl join such a group? They cannot, despite all the repeated protestations to the contrary. Here's some bizarre logic for you: BDPT wouldn't let his daughter join a Wiccan group, but thinks it's OK for a girl of another faith to join this Christian group. Apparently, while overt Wicca would exclude his daughter, overt Christianity is not excluding anyone. How does that make sense? AHG may be a great fit for you and your family. That's not what I'm arguing against. Go ahead and join; if AHG can stand on its own two feet, more power to it. I support everyone's right to join organizations with which they find a match. I simply believe that *my* organization, the Boy Scouts of America, should not be endorsing, partnering with and openly favoring AHG, an organization that (1) excludes many of BSA's own families and leaders, (2) has a track record of anti-immigrant policy and (3) has a track record of spreading misinformation. That's where I stand.

As a former journalist, I would have gladly welcomed units sending stuff in! Anything and everything. There's no guarantee it would all get in all the time, but if you don't send it in, you're guaranteed not to get any publicity. Most community papers have been cut so far to the bone that if you write it in something approximating English, it'll run verbatim.

I also use the Google site:scouting.org method of searching, because the internal search engine is broken three-quarters of the time, and the times it does work it doesn't get me what I need. I'll sit in the corner and be quiet now. Don't want to be too critical and drive off any other National advancement people lurking around.

AHGnBSAMom, Interesting point. BSA should partner with organizations whose values reflect its values. AHG's do not. It's that simple. SR540Beaver, I'm not sure I get your point re: LDS. The church has adopted Boy Scouts as its young men's program, and agrees to abide by BSA's values, principles, practices and rules as part of that. I don't see any comparison to AHG there. Yes, churches and other organizations can charter BSA units and restrict membership to only members of their faith or church. That's acceptable. And if that were all AHG was - an offshoot of conservative churches - that'd be cool. But its partnership with BSA is what gets me tied up in knots. AHG is attempting to use its MMS as some sort of brand of legitimacy in the Scouting community, while going against the very values of inclusion and religious tolerance that Scouting is based upon. There is no room for non-Christians in the organization. But in the BSA, while churches can charter and choose, so can the local synagogue, temple or mosque. Anyone can start a troop, pack, crew or ship, but we're all Scouts. In AHG, if you're not Christian, don't bother darkening their door. Would AHG agree with these words, or would those West Chester moms have a fit? "So far as having an Arab and Hindu at our 'Scouts Own' at Gilwell, we could easily have driven them away by keeping the service to a strictly Christian line. We preferred to take the wider view of recognizing our brother Scouts as being also sons of the same Father with ourselves. They were broad minded enough to listen to our Scriptures; it was not very much for us in return to listen to a chapter from the Koran. You probably know the Koran yourself and will agree that it contains very fine ideas and inspiring words, and I am positive we did ourselves no spiritual harm but good from what we heard that day." Yeah, Baden-Powell said that.