shortridge

Wow. Definitely get the CORs involved. Sounds like it could get quite nasty. Do most of the Scouts involved join a particular unit because of their faith? Or is it more of a geographic or school thing? Glad you included your town's population. From where I grew up, 6,000 people is practically a metropolis! Even now around here, it'd be tough for a town of that size to support a single troop and pack, let alone multiple ones. So remember - it's a good thing the program is reaching that many kids.

I was a bit confused by the title of this thread. Is there a council-level education/conservation coordinator position out there, and is what n8turldy suggests one of their proposals? I think it's a great idea to snazz the pamphlets up and market them to a mass audience. I just hope they redo the line drawings and reshoot the art. (How many Scouts go rappelling or do pioneering in an official polo shirt?) There is already a lot of substance to the pamphlets beyond the BSA-produced content - check out the resource lists in the back. The problem is those require constant updating, as books go out of print and gradually become unavailable in libraries, and as Web sites change or go under.

"It is my opinion as a currently serving OA Adviser..." I don't mean this as criticism, but I'd just like to point out that the term "currently serving OA Adviser" might have more significance or weight with some clarification. There's no such thing as a generic "OA Adviser," unless you consider all Scouters to be advisers to the youth leaders and members - but as a position, it doesn't exist. There are advisers for publications editors and ceremonies teams, lodge chiefs and elections committees, chaplains and chapters, and a whole lot more. As an example, I'd give the statement of an adviser to a lodge uniforming committee (if there were such a thing) a lot more credence on this issue than I would an adviser to the chapter secretary. That said, the Insignia Guide and OA Handbook both seem pretty clear, and non-contradictory on this subject. Can't wear 'em both at the same time.

Why? My son's troop is pretty tech-savvy but the troop web-site is largely ignored. It's up to date, slick, cool, and all that but no one goes there for information. I hate to use this phrase, but for many "kids today," if something's not online, it doesn't exist or didn't happen. So even if it's not used by the membership, it's an extra marketing tool.

Thanks for the clarifications! Eamonn: I apologize - I misread the sentence about putting materials online. Thought it meant that some materials would only be available online, putting it out of reach of some folks. But if that stuff is available through the councils, and it's just a budgetary shell game, it seems less of an issue. Clearly the social networking marketing effort isn't aimed at adults. I'm not so sure that setting up a separate site is the way to go. Lots of youth already use MySpace, Facebook, etc. Breaking into that user base will be tough. Might have been simpler and easier to appeal to them on their own turf - setting up a Scouting MySpace page or network, for example. It'll also take some serious work to get up and running. A true social network is only as good as the number and quality of its members. That'll take some heavy recruiting and promoting on the council and district levels.

Sorry for my ignorance - what are bin items? I interpreted that statement as referring to forms, pamphlets, flyers, etc. - anything simple that can be put online and downloaded as a PDF, for example. Brand identity is one thing, but good marketing communications on the local level is another entirely. If your national campaign is slick and sophisticated, but the locals not so much, that creates a disconnect and instant turnoff for prospective consumers (read: members). I do wish the story had put the layoffs in perspective - 40 staffers out of how many? Anyone know?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

For example, he said, the group would no longer produce, print, bundle and mail Scout materials to its offices around the nation. Instead, the information would be available online. How much of a problem is this going to be for non-wired folks around the country? There's a whole generation of older adult leaders who don't have computers, let alone know how to surf the Internet or register for a training session online. And don't forget low-income or rural communities where Internet access is at the public library, if at all. If marketing is going to be a new focus, then National needs to get that word to the councils asap. In my council, the Web site and bi-monthly Scouter newsletter are exceedingly disorganized and hard to use. It's improved substantially in recent years, but still muddled. Knot Head: Have you tried Backpacker magazine's databases (www.backpacker.com)? Click on the "Destinations" link. It combines reader trips with staff write-ups. As a flatlander from an East Coast state without a national park, I sometimes get rather frustrated with Backpacker's focus on the West, mountains and national parks. But it's a good start, especially if a troop or crew is planning big.

An official Scout Kilt would be great! ;-) Deciding on the tartan would be problematic. Do you go with a khaki-and-green deal? A red-white-and-blue combo for Eagles? Could Cubs get a blue-and-gold version?

CalicoPenn: Advance signups are a must at most camps, if only to make sure you don't have chaos at Sunday sign-up night when 50 Scouts are all fighting for the 10 Motorboating MB slots. (First-come, first-serve advance sign-up also encourages units to register well in advance, putting the council on good financial ground - but money doesn't play a role in the BSA, does it? Nahh.) At my old camp, we had a Sunday night "Merit Badge Midway" where Scouts who hadn't signed up could stop by a program area table in the dining hall and see what was available. Often those limited-space badges and programs (such as Climbing, COPE, Motorboating, BSA Lifeguard) were already filled to capacity, with a waiting list. From a logistical standpoint, advance sign-up also gives the camp notice that it'll need to make special arrangements - like lining up another van for an off-site trip to a sewage plant or the state capitol (one of those trips was for an ecology badge, the other for a Citizenship badge - hard to tell them apart sometimes). Or for arranging for 10 more fishing poles, a couple more loaner canoes or an extra box of rope... you see where I'm going. Much easier to get those things a few weeks ahead than the night before. GoldWinger: As much as I like that idea, how many council camps are really set up for long-distance backpacking treks? Backpacking MB calls for three 15-milers, three days each (though as that's just five miles a day, I don't know one can really describe it as "long-distance"). You'd be seeing a lot of the same scenery to get those 15 miles in at any camp I've been to. Going off-site, of course, is an option - a local state or national park, for example - but then why not ditch the whole council camp entirely and run your own program?

jblake47 wrote: "Units are being split, SM's tossed out, CC's and SM having fights, CM and DL having fights, etc. etc. etc. Is it the times we live in? I don't remember these issues 15 years ago." They've been going on for as long as there have been troops and packs. I can attest to disputes two decades ago. As a Cub Scout, and son of a den leader and pack committee member who was dragged along to many a meeting, I was witness to one such event that rapidly degenerated into yelling and finger-pointing. It was pretty nasty, and really opened my eyes, even as a youngster. My first Boy Scout troop started up because of a disagreement with the existing troop's leaders over the way a youth with health problems was being treated. I'd wager that most such disputes happen at the Cub level, where you have exponentially more parents - and egos - involved, and nearly everyone's new. But that's just my guesstimate.

CIT's at my camp don't get paid, but they don't have to pay, either. I believe they get a bonus if they return the next year as a paid staffer. It's a full-summer program. Back in my day, CITs were pretty much full members of the staff. They helped set up camp and rotated through program areas or support service areas - usually including one week at the pool/waterfront. They were "program specialists" - basically camp guides/song leaders/den chiefs - for the resident Cub camp. And don't tell the inspectors, but in a pinch, they even taught some merit badges! I taught Indian Lore and Basketry my first week, and it is with absolute certainty that I can say they were the worst classes in the history of any summer camp on any planet in any galaxy. But I can only recall of a handful of CITs quitting during five years. These days, the assistant program director supervises the CIT program, and they don't teach merit badges. It's much more structured.

I agree with jmwalston - that could come back to bite you. Before making a complaint and raising a ruckus, I'd be careful and inquire first, very politely, about the circumstances. A "strongly implied" statement from the camp staff doesn't necessarily mean it's true. It sounds to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you got your information from the Webelos resident camp director, who's not the same person that directly oversees the camp year-round. That person may even have gotten his or her information second- or third-hand. The siting decision may have been made by the SE - who knows? It also may have been made by a part-time clerk in the council offices who's never seen the camp in person and made a mistake. When did the camp director learn about the location - at the same time you did? Did he or she raise any objections at that point? Sounds like a screwy situation generally - glad the Webelos had a good time, though! At the summer camp where I used to work, everyone walked a lot because the program areas were pretty spread out - but it wasn't out-and-back straight-line treks, which makes it seem much longer.

Before people assume a financial conspiracy - which group signed up to use the camp first? If a council opens the camp up to non-Scouting groups, as most do, it's got to be a first-come, first-serve basis - it's the only fair thing. You can't bump the hiking club that reserved a spot in January in favor of the Scout troop that signed up in April. On the other hand, if the resident camp program happens at the same time every year, and has traditionally used that section of camp, that does raise some troubling issues. Also: Is the contention that the ROTC group paid something extra beyond the standard camp use fee? Or is it that the ROTC group paid a fee and the Webelos group didn't?

What does (did) a dining hall commissioner do?

Getting slightly off-topic... "If they are under 18 and not already a member of a Venturing or Scout unit, what are they doing with the summer camp program anyway if not medical or food services?" Expanding on Eamonn's comment - there are plenty of program roles that a non-Scout or Venturer could play on summer camp staff. In addition to lifeguards and COPE/climbing instructors, the "real world" has a host of specialized experience that our camps could and should be drawing on. The best nature/ecology director I ever worked with had no Scouting experience - he was a college friend of the camp commissioner, going for his education degree. Think how cool it would be for a local search-and-rescue team member to teach Wilderness Survival.

RangerT, Thanks. I realize the Venturing program is structured very differently than Boy Scouts. I think it's good in some ways to leave the details up to experienced consultants and other groups that have a much deeper knowledge base than the average Scoutmaster, for example. What piqued my interest in this particular topic was that I saw a lot of other details included in the various Ranger Award requirements - from basic knots to types of climbing harnesses - but nothing for woods tools. It seemed odd to me that some details were left up to the discretion and interest of the individual Venturer, but others weren't. Added: Carrying out a conservation project doesn't necessarily mean that a Venturer would learn proper use and handling of woods tools.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Forgive my skepticism, but just requiring the badge doesn't mean the program will improve. Alas, for many car-camping troops, cooking is something done with giant coolers, propane tanks and big chunky two-burner Coleman stoves. Break out the canned foods - weight isn't a problem in a trailer, after all - and cook like you would on a range at home. Cooking over a campfire? Umm... hot dogs and foil dinners. Dutch oven cooking? Well, you've got to be at least Wood Badge-trained to touch the Scoutmaster's personal dutch oven for fear you'll mess it up, so just sit back and watch, sonny. ========= Kudu, I just lost my lunch when I read that. That quote's from the parody edition, right? Good grief. (BTW, I love the use of the phrase "unholy spawn.") ========= Gonzo1, I recently read the 8th Edition handbook trying to understand how the skill awards worked and fit into the program, and ended up being utterly confused by the whole thing. Is there also not concern that the skill awards are too similar to Cub Scout belt loops, and thus tend to make Boy Scouting just an extension of the Cub program, rather than something separate and different?

Lifesaving and Emergency Prep are very odd counterparts. I'd like to see more active work for EP, including some new requirements focusing on search and rescue. I'm very conflicted, and feel somewhat hypocritical, about first-year Scouts working on Wilderness Survival. Some of them are ready for it and some aren't. Speaking as a former WS summer camp MB counselor, it's tough to teach flint & steel to someone who doesn't know how to build a firelay - just as one example. I think it's a great older Scout badge, because you need a basic level of outdoors experience to "get" everything out of it.

I'd add one of the human-powered water sports badges - Canoeing OR Rowing OR Small-Boat Sailing. Pioneering and Orienteering would be other solid additions. It's embarassing to see Eagles (or Iggles) who can't tie a taut-line hitch or do a square lashing that holds together. Backpacking would be great, though I'd like to see a renewed emphasis on making your own gear, rather than just buying off the shelf. In addition to opening up a whole new set of skills, it teaches thrift! Glad to see Wilderness Survival has so much support. It's always been my favorite badge - earned it at my first summer camp at age 10.

Why can't the SPL wear a campaign hat - from "back in the day" or the modern-day version?

Sorry, that was imprecise. I meant the equivalent of the requirements, not TC/BP themselves. It just struck me as odd that there's nothing in the core or elective Ranger requirements that focus on this topic. Could easily be worked into Backpacking or Wilderness Survival requirements, it seems.

I've been looking through the Ranger Award requirements, and am a little disturbed to find no reference to proper use and safe handling of woods tools - knife, axe, hatchet, saw. Lots of other topics are covered - including stuff on eating wild foods, which I always thought was verboten - but I can't find any Venturing equivalent to the Totin' Chip or even Paul Bunyan requirements. Are Venturers simply expected to learn these basic skills as part of the general course of working on the Ranger Award? Were they deemed not important, or contrary to modern-day LNT techniques? Any insights? ... or did I just miss it, and y'all are now laughing at me? ;-)

I'm wondering if we can start a brainstorming thread, tossing out ideas and examples of camp service projects that have lasting value, beyond standard repair work. I'll start, in no particular order. * Trail marking, mapping and maintenance * Building new boat racks * Installing new fencing * Building new storage shed for woods tools * Designing and constructing main gate/archway for camp * Creating new signs for summer camp program areas

Be_Prepared, Have you or your crew attended that program? Any good?

I sympathize with your frustration. But as the Supreme Chief of the Fire, the Council Scout Executive does have final say in all OA lodge matters. Someone has to have the legal command authority, and that's the SE. My old lodge did not do inductions at summer camp. There were three weekends scheduled throughout the year for that purpose, and candidates could choose which one to attend. It sounds like it'd be a pretty dramatic change for your lodge, ending what may be a long tradition, but it is possible to not do inductions at camp and still thrive. Has the SE attended any lodge meetings to explain the changes? (Has he or she been invited to do so?) What does the lodge staff adviser say - the person who's supposed to represent the Supreme Chief of the Fire to the lodge? As far as the newsletter, I can totally understand the argument for dropping the print edition in favor of an electronic one - e-mail, PDF, on a Web site, a blog, whatever. I'd wager 99 percent of youth members have access to the Internet. But since your Web site was also taken down, that kind of negates that argument. Sounds very confusing, and frustrating.