shortridge

According to the Census Bureau (2006 population estimates): "White persons": 80.1 percent "Black persons": 12.8 percent "Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin": 14.8 percent "White persons not Hispanic": 66.4 percent # # # It seems like any local units that wanted to could have run programs like this in the past without a special National initiative. Just make sports a central part of your program - say, half and half. There's nothing that says you can't customize to meet local needs. What intrigued me was the mention of allowing young girls into the program. Do I hear some cracks starting in the glass fleur-de-lis? If you make sports an overwhelmingly dominant part of your program (say 75-25), and you bring in young girls, at what point does it stop being Cub Scouts and start being a soccer league with somebody named Akela?

...and stole baby coach wheels to make go-kart. I guess stealing from sisters doesn't count? :-)

I love the early Scouting games, and am envious of folks who can actually do the winter/snow activities. I'm from a region where we get maybe six inches of snow all winter - and that's with a lot of luck. Our Klondike Derby sleds just, er, glide over frozen ground and grassy stubble. It is a constant source of amazement to me how much the older Scouting manuals emphasized stalking, tracking and trailing - and how that's mostly vanished today. Especially given BP's emphasis on those skills, it seems to leave a huge hole in the organized program.

There's a big difference between wood fires or candles and those using chemicals of some sort. And just because something is for a ceremony doesn't mean we throw out all our common sense. Does this sound like a good idea? Not to me. The stories posted and linked here about how the neckerchief can catch fire, how it stuck to one guy's boot - those show how this particular stunt can easily get out of control. Compare that to a campfire. We know how the average wood fire is going to behave under general circumstances. You don't have to worry about mixing wood types incorrectly, unlike with the chemicals described in this thread. Yes, accidents cam happen with campfires or candles - no one is saying they're any less dangerous. But unless you haven't followed safety precautions - no fire circle, no extinguishing source - or a storm or wind gust blows through, it's pretty predictable. Not so for this type of ceremony. And remember your audience. No matter the number of times you caution boys - especially younger ones - NOT to do something, there's always a percentage that'll try it. Yeah, everyone here played with that type of stuff as a kid and no one was hurt, right? But from a practical perspective, why tempt the issue when you don't have to? There are plenty of alternatives. For starters, try inspiring awe with Scouting skills, not a fancy stunt - fire by friction or flint & steel come to mind!

Maybe it's just the curmudgeon in me, but I like being able to look at a person's flap and tell more or less instantly which lodge he or she is with. (Staring at someone's chest to try to decipher the thick embroidered writing isn't the politest move, particularly when it's that of a female Arrowman.) The proliferation of commemorative flaps kind of negates that. Problem is they're often MUCH snazzier and sharper-looking than the standard lodge flap, which increases the attraction. And if you don't want to get your "real" flap stained or damaged, you'll wear one of the "others." # # # Sorry about going off-topic - what's this about doing away with individual honors? Rumor or truth? Did I just miss something?

Move to the South, cause grits makes e'ry tang cheaper. So do y'all serve grits at summer camp?

Big doesn't have to mean tall, does it? If this Scouter's goal is to develop the pioneering skills of the Scouts in the unit, a series of 5-foot-11-inch towers connected by bridges and walkways of various types would provide much the same benefit as a 30-foot-tall tower. You also get more people enjoying the end result, climbing and clambering over the connected structures, rather than one person at a time inching up a single tall tower on belay. That would seem the simplest way to meet M-64, as I read it. Resident camp standards may not be required for unit or district events, but it sure seems smart to follow them. (Parenthetical aside: If the Scouter just likes showing off and building big stuff, fancying him- or herself an amateur engineer, and the Scouts aren't in charge, then politely suggest a refocusing of efforts.)

(Please forgive the length.) That is a significant difference in price ($62 per day vs. $44 per day at the prices you quote), but I doubt it's as simple as a stubborn volunteer. There are a lot of factors that go into running and pricing a camp, and your DE (NCS administration trained, right?) should be more than conversant with those. He shouldn't just agree with you, he should explain why it's that way. Questions to consider: Is this a Webelos- or Cub-only camp, or are there also Boy Scout programs running simultaneously or before/after? Is it staffed by paid employees or volunteers? Does it run just one session, or are there multiple weeks to choose from? I ask because I would imagine that finding full-time paid staffers for a Cub-only camp would be harder than finding ones for a Boy Scout camp (lacking the same cachet for the 16-to-18-year-olds who are the backbone of Boy Scout camp staffs), and thus the pay scale might have to increase. On the other hand, if it's a camp that does both, or if it's volunteer-staffed, that issue largely goes out the window. And if it's just for one session, your one-time startup costs (training, setup, equipment move-in, general support - all the behind-the-scenes work) have to be spread over a shorter period. Camps are not turnkey operations. More questions: Is the camp at a council-owned facility, or is the site rented? If the latter, what's the rental rate, does the council have to sign any gigantic special insurance contracts and do they have to provide any special program opportunities (like busing them to an off-site pool)? Those obviously have a significant impact on costs. At my old camp in the mid-Atlantic region, which runs five weeks of Boy Scouts and then 3.5 weeks of Cubs and Webelos, the (full) price for a 3-day, 2-night Cub and 1st-year Webelos program is $170. A 6-day, 5-night program for second-year Webelos is $280. That's $57 per day for short-term vs. $47 per day for long-term. But there are many other factors to consider. If your resident camp also operates a Boy Scout program and you're able to do an apples-to-apples comparison, that might be instructive. At the camp I cited above, a week of Boy Scout camp (full price, dining hall option) is $315 - or $52 a day. So the second-year Webelos program is actually cheaper than the Boy Scout program. (Examples of cost changes for Cubs/Webelos... Add more pool lifeguards to cover an increased volume of kids during chaotic open swims, give each pack or den a staff guide/songleader/program specialist, beef up staff at the trading post and buy all-new handicrafts materials. But then subtract shotgun, COPE, rifle, action archery, first-year camper programs and BSA lifeguard training, and reduce the number of waterfront programs, as Webelos generally don't go kayaking or sailing but sometimes paddle in a canoe or ride on the pontoon boat.) In addition, running multiple short-term camps (you can fit two of the 3-day, 2-night programs in a week) also involves more work for the staff than a single long-term program (like for the week of Boy Scouts). There are now two closing programs, two final awards ceremonies, two times the paperwork to be processed and twice the number of campsites to be inspected and checked out... and then a quick turnaround to clean, tidy, reset program areas, get new supplies and adjust campsites to fit to the needs and numbers of the new packs coming in. I haven't been to NCS for administration, so the logistics are hard for me to quantify, but directors do have to consider that. IMO, the DE should have engaged you more in discussion and provided detailed budget information about how and why the costs were established. He's the director, he'd better have been to National Camping School - so shrugging it off on a volunteer is a cop-out.

John-in-KC, I agree with you on the mystique and mystery issue, but the fact remains that you can't bar anyone from observing a ceremony or inductions procedure. Parents who are worried about hazing, who've read all the horrible things that have been said about the OA or who have religious concerns have a pretty valid reason to insist on observing a ceremony. That said, I'd wager that the number of non-Arrowmen who've done that over the years could be counted in the very low digits. I've absolutely nothing to back this up, but that's my gut instinct. It just occurred to me that folks outside the lodge see Ordeal and Brotherood ceremonies all the time at section conclave competitions. D'oh.

If alcohol were purely a safety issue it would be prohibited under any condition in scouting, but it's not. Don't know if this warrants a spinoff, but has anyone ever been to an adults-only Scouting event where alcohol was served? Champagne and cookies at Roundtable? Budweiser at a council committee meeting? Jack Daniels at Wood Badge? As a Scout, I attended a Roundtable or two as OA chapter chief. So alcohol would have been barred there, since I was a youth. Unless the council meeting or training session were held away from the council HQ or camp, it would have been barred there. So as a practical matter, I don't see very many chances for alcohol to be consumed. (Maybe at an off-site Silver Beaver awards banquet - but no, the Scout flag-bearers would nullify it.)

I'd buy it at 50 percent, short-sleeved shirt only. In the time B.S. (before switchbacks), I wore shorts into November and beyond. You couldn't pay me enough to wear those de la Renta pants again.

Beavah - Thanks. The water-chugging item kind of puzzled me, too, but I get it now. BW - I always thought that the alcohol ban WAS a safety issue. I wouldn't want people even slightly under the influence to be responsible for my child. Hiking while intoxicated could be just as dangerous as driving in certain situations, as mental and physical reaction times both slow. The confusion between safety and image probably arises from the fact that the publication is titled "Guide to Safe Scouting" and refers to "the real need to protect members from known hazards." I'd read that literally, and so would most people. That said, I'd have to agree that a proper game of indoor laser tag is probably less dangerous than some games of Capture the Flag. (I got clotheslined once because someone forgot to take down an axyard rope - went from running flat-out to whoomp, flat on my back. I got a lot of ribbing the next morning for my "giant hickey.")

Not to discount the other advice here, but keeping last names offline isn't a perfect solution, and parents who think it is are sadly misinformed. As a newspaper reporter, I've tracked down people - teenagers and adults alike - on Facebook, mySpace and blogs even when they just list their first name. Having their hometown goes a long way, though knowing even a bit of information about the person really helps.

Oh, yeah, it works. Might take time to get 'em trained, but I've done it myself under the circumstances you've described - loud dining hall or campfire, Scouts' attention on other things, lots of talking and noise. The sign goes up, and you can just see the silence spreading in concentric circles from the sign-er. Sometimes it comes down to one or two Scouts or leaders still jabbering away, and they only realize it with the collective glare focused on them. Kind of amusing.

Point very well taken - thank you.

Check out some of the ideas on this thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=194237#id_195126

Why not? The bond as fellow Arrowmen is lifelong (assuming you keep your dues paid up! :-) ) but lodges can easily change. Sounds like a great way to build some intra-lodge fellowship, and maybe even learn a few things. Can you clarify if this is the policy at your lodge? Most everyone in this forum knows this, but it bears repeating: Ceremonies are not secret. They also are not restricted to Arrowmen - any non-member parent, guardian, religious leader, Scout leader, etc. can attend for the asking. So it seems ridiculous that a lodge would treat its ceremonies as private and bar other Arrowmen. I magine that conceivably - and I don't know if this has ever been raised as an issue anywhere - an Ordeal or Brotherhood member could even ask to observe the Vigil ceremony. They would probably get a more-than-substantial amount of backlash, but I can't see how the lodge (especially the SE) could ultimately refuse them. Personal postscript: After my election and before my induction, I read a Bronc Burnett novel that included a depiction of an OA ceremony. At the next campout, I pestered my Vigil Honor Scoutmaster enough that he sat down with me and explained things - though he left me largely in the dark. I'm very grateful for that.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

GW - not only terrorists, but aimless daredevil delinquent thieves! I'm surprised there's still talk about this type of thing after the deadly "ring of fire" incident at the New Jersey Boy Scout camp earlier this summer. Playing with fire - even when it's just adults - goes against everything Scouting teaches. When it gets out of control, you can't call it back. At my AOL ceremony, the OA rep (in full regalia) bent down too close to a candle and caught his feather headdress on fire. That was exciting enough.

High-energy ray guns... cool. Where do I sign up for my tricorder and phaser (set to stun)? Just my opinion, but I don't see too many people leaving Scouting because paintball and laser tag are (was?) prohibited. If a Scout is that into it, all he has to do is invite members of the patrol or troop individually for an explicitly non-Scouting paintball game. Simple enough to do. # # # On a GSS tangent, I find it interesting that there is specific guidance on monkey bridges, but not on other types of bridges that could be equally dangerous if built incorrectly or with improper materials. Any insight?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Lisabob and others are exactly right. Newspaper delivery in most areas today is an adult job. Get up at 3 a.m., seven days a week, and drive around for a few hours tossing papers. Not realistic for kids unless you're in a suburban area or small town with an afternoon newspaper - which are almost dead today. Outfitting a troop with camping gear is a monumental, budget-busting task without proper community or CO support, even if you go the cheap-cheap route. You can make your own gear, but how many kids will have the motivation or ability to sew tents, tarps and packs? How many parents have that ability these days? Personal gear is a similar issue. I remember a guy in my troop who showed up on his first camping trip with his clothes in plastic trash bags. He knew better, but his (single) mother just didn't have the extra cash for a backpack - he didn't even have one for school. His younger sister had Down syndrome, so medical bills, child care, food and utilities took first priority - as they must. The adult leaders helped him, out of their own pockets, and he stayed in for a while. But I'd bet we're going to see a lot less of that as the economy continues to swirl around in the toilet. A nonprofit community agency in my town that might ordinarily be a great CO for a Scouting program is in its own financial straits - its office is in a cramped, tiny, run-down buildings, its workers are underpaid, its social service budgets are stretched to the max. It's not going to be stepping up to the plate any time soon. What all that means, and what hurts me the most, is that this means the kids who need the Scouting program the most aren't getting it. Yes, it's a combination of factors - single parents, parents working multiple jobs, lack of savings, lack of income, the list goes on. But it ultimately comes down to money. Is there any other way around the issue than to "throw money at it"? Nope. A basic rule of life is that stuff costs money, and many folks these days don't have enough of either. Yes, America is relatively affluent compared to other countries. But electricity, running water, automobiles, telephones, television - all the things that TheScout lists cost money. That means people have to work harder and longer to keep up their standard of living, leaving less time - and money - for their families and children. I agree with one general point - sell the xBox and DVD player. Kids don't need that type of mind-rotting trash anyway. But when there's no local park, when the only place to play is in the street, when you've got an apartment complex of latchkey kids - I'd rather have my child inside where it's safe. Scouting needs to do a lot more to make the program accessible to more kids, and it WILL take money. That's the bottom line.

Boy Scouts, blazing a new trail, reach out to Delaware Hispanics / Recruiters hired to show community it's not just 'a program for the rich' Marc Garduno faces a couple of obstacles as he sets out to recruit Boy Scouts from Delaware's Hispanic community. First, the Scouts' traditional uniform, with pressed pants and insignia, might be off-putting to immigrants from countries where dictatorships thrive. Second, the Scouts' Norman Rockwell image has for decades sent a message that it's a club for well-to-do whites. Statistics show that of about 3 million Scouts nationwide, 70 percent are white. "Within the Hispanic-American community, there is an idea of the Boy Scouts as being a 'programa para los ricos' -- a program for the rich," said Garduno, 39, of Dover, whose parents are from Mexico. "That's what we're trying to change." Hired in July by the Delmarva Council of the Boy Scouts of America, Garduno is working full time to make connections with Hispanic organizations and churches, particularly in Kent and Sussex counties, where the state's Hispanic population is growing fastest. He hopes to have four Hispanic troops organized by the end of the year. Full story here(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Shortridge, there are some advisor positions that are expressly detailed in the OA literature. Right, and that was precisely the point I was trying to make. There is no generic "OA Adviser" position; each is specific to the youth member you're advising. Even a lodge adviser is substantially different from a chapter adviser. As a further (but poor) example: A Scoutmaster and Cubmaster are both Scout "masters," but no one would group them together. # # # Point of inquiry, for the legalists out there: Since the adviser position draws its position-ness from the youth officer (lodge chief, chapter chief, committee chairman, etc.) should advisers to vacant posts still be considered advisers?

in training it had been recommended to him that SM Conferences should not be sitting down, face to face, rather it should be an informal conversation while doing something else, say a walk or something like that. ... also recommend (a) out of hearing range but (b) well within sight of the rest of the troop or patrol.

Congrats. I did that section in 1998 and had a great time. While each camp and instructors vary, here's my basic advice: * Ask lots of questions. There'll be a great mix of people, some with no experience and some with lots. I'd taught outdoors skills badges for four years before I went, and still learned a ton - much of it from my fellow directors. * Take lots of notes. Bring several pens and several notepads. Small reporters'-style pads are best - long, slim and fit in a back pocket for when you're moving around. * Bring your own ideas. Got an oddball notion for a program? Odds are someone else has done it, or something like it. You'll get great feedback from people who've BT/DT. * Bring plenty of equipment for practicing in your few off-hours - plenty of rope, a hatchet/axe, stave, compass & maps of your camp, etc. * Stay in touch after the fact. You'll probably get addresses and contact info for everyone at the camp - at least in your section. Makes a valuable start to a Scouting rolodex. * Pack for a backpacking trek - so don't just bring a day pack and a duffel, unless you go ultralight. We did an overnight a couple miles away from the main camp. It was a great opportunity to cook on a can stove, munch on pepperoni sticks and tell dirty stories around the campfire. (The silence when we realized the camp director had quietly come off the trail to join us during the latter was deafening. He very kindly pretended not to have heard and accepted an offer of pepperoni.) Overall, it was a great experience, but I found there was a not-insignificant amount of B.S. accompanying it. Mealtimes were very regimented, and the camp director had a huge cult of personality going on that I found rather off-putting. NCS does have quite a few attendees who have zero Boy Scouting experience, though, so a lot of that is for their benefit - they've got to get a crash course. I know I had it easier than the folks who accompanied me from my home camp going for COPE, aquatics and shooting sports. They really worked their butts off.

Eagle92 - I like the callout ceremony idea to involve more Arrowmen and show their strength and numbers. Is there any follow-through after the callout (do the "sponsors" help guide their candidates to prepare for the Ordeal, are they elangomats, etc.), or is it just a ceremonial thing? If the former, I'd be very careful about symbolic progression.