shortridge

So a Venturer could potentially be 21 for 11 months until he or she is actually considered an adult? Goofy.

The council program director that dludens posted the reply from acknowledges that the abandonment of the national database may be overdue. That says a lot in my book. It seems to have taken vocal complaints to get change. It is the council's responsibility to administer the records properly. If the database is a known problem, then it becomes the council's responsibility to fix or replace it. Judging from the reply the OP received, it's the problems have been creating additional work for the council staff, who've had to review the outputs and make sure they're correct! Such a situation doesn't make a darn bit of sense.

I'm wondering if anyone out there has a source for plans for the Green Bar Bill pack. A 10-year-old thread from Scouts-L referred folks to the 1968 Patrol Leader's Handbook, which had plans for other items of gear as well. But the only copy I've been able to find is online from an Australian bookseller, and I'm not sure it's even the right edition.

jblake, So you have a "pass-off pack" that you use, instead of splitting the patrol cooking gear up among the patrol members? Interesting approach. Is that just to keep it all together? (I assume they split the food up in their personal packs?) What brand, size or type of plastic container do you use - a Rubbermaid-style thing or something different?

No, that's not what I said, and please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that I can understand the frustration dluders and others clearly feel about problems with Council-level recordkeeping. If I were a problem-prone Scouter of the sort that that I described, I would expect the professional staff to feel the same type of frustration, and to communicate those feelings to try to solve the problem. That's what dluders was trying to do here - to get feedback and perspective on the position he has taken. He chose one approach to try to solve the problem - to make noise, in the same vein as the proverbial squeaky wheel. There are certainly other paths that could be taken. I'm certainly not seeing I agree with it. The problem with my analogy of my invented paperwork-losing Scouter, of course, is that lone clueless Scouter only creates 15 minutes of work for the Council staff. But when the Council staff messes something up, it creates 15 minutes of work for hundreds or even thousands of volunteers. And then it snowballs when those Scouters have to re-submit their old paperwork back to Council - creating even MORE work for the underpaid, overworked folks there. One tiny issue can have a huge impact when it's all added up. Everyone's time is valuable. But the Council staffers do get paid for theirs.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Just because people or systems in the past lost the info does not make the people who are trying to correct it incompetent. If they're the same people, yes, it does. Trying to flip this around from a different perspective... If I'm a unit-level Scouter and continually lose key documents - say, a copy of the unit charter, advancement forms, tour permits, etc. - and folks at Council have to keep sending me replacements, they're going to get exasperated, probably very much so to the point of complaining to my COR, unit commissioner or DE. The OP is in roughly the same boat. It's sounds like a legitimate complaint in my book. On the other hand, if one does not take steps to correct the situation and if the Council rules that its incorrect records are indeed correct, then one has to face the consequences. Unless you have a strong COR on your side, it's hard to "hold the council responsible," as dluders suggested.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

joel322, I apologize if you felt my post was mean-spirited in any way. However, reading your original post left an odd taste in my mouth - like I'd just read an ad when I was expecting to read a news article. I thought it was pertinent that you had a Scouting background, and that you owned a gear store, both of which reflect on your post and desire to spread the word about the Spot devices. Additionally, after a further search, I realized that www.findme-gps.com, the site to which you directed readers for more information, sends visitors back to your gear store Web site to purchase the Spot. In my way of thinking, that makes you not an entirely unbiased reviewer, and it's something that should have been disclosed in your original post, in my opinion.

Without putting words in anyone else's mouth, I think the big-picture complaint here revolves around customer service, rooted in the feeling that the professional staff - whether DEs or clerks - are paid to get stuff right. Granted, we're all human. But volunteers send in their forms and information with the not-unreasonable expectation that they're in good hands and aren't going to be lost or miscategorized. I agree that it's perhaps not a gigantic issue that should lead to a big stir in public. But I can certainly understand the frustration.

Gee, I'm sorry I missed that! My council isn't merging or being gobbled up, but I know it recently got a new CEO, so the learning curve is still pretty steep, probably. Thanks!

I'd agree with you on that, NeilLup. You've got to like what you do to work at camp. Camp instructors are, for the most part, extremely highly motivated and interested in their subject, and no matter the age are good teachers. (Though I still cringe to think of the hash I made of teaching Basketry as a CIT - having never woven a basket myself.) My original question was sparked more by trying to figure out why the rule exists in the first place, if a decent sampling of camps out there aren't following it. If the only thing that the "official" MBC is doing is signing off on an "assistant's" work, and not personally checking that each Scout has met the requirements, then the rule isn't working - making a heck of a lot of MBs across the country technically invalid.

ScoutNut, Thanks for the information and clarifications. Any insight on why the training materials aren't finished/available yet?

I'm curious about the extent of the damage, too. Maybe if they put their foot through an ultralight, ultrathin canoe... but just swamping it wouldn't normally damage it that much. These were adults? Shame.

What happens when they forget the basic things? Does another patrol loan them equipment, or do the adults step in and give them what they need? If it's the former, have a "self-sufficiency campout," where each patrol must operate on its own, independently, ideally camping away from the others. Each can have its own flag ceremonies, programs, campfire... and mealtimes. If it's the latter, have the adults stop doing it. The Scouts will figure out a solution to replace the missing soap/pans/trash bags/condiments, and I guarantee you they'll plan better next time. A little dish-scrubbing with sand never hurt anyone, improvising a set of tongs will spark some creativity, and eating stew without a spoon builds character. :-) One downside to patrol boxes, as Lisabob points out, is that they do restrict your patrols psychologically. Scouts who are used to having a trailer lug around dutch ovens and tin cans of soup for them will have to really think outside the box (pun intended, sorry) when it comes time for backpacking. They are useful for summer resident camp, though.

Did the council actually lose the physical paper files, or was information simply mis-keyed into a database by temp employees?

Basementdweller, I had that same reaction. The poster appears to be a leader of an Alabama troop, and owner of an online outdoor gear store.

The Magic 8-Ball Patrol... "All signs point to yes!" "Try again later!" "Outlook not so good!"

I'm kind of glad to hear this because it confirms my own experiences, but sad to hear it because it's obviously not a good way to run an organization. My daughter is turning 5 next summer, and I want to be able to start or help start a Daisy troop in the fall. But I looked at the training schedule and saw that the workshops generally don't start until late September or October, an dI don't want the girls to have to wait. I contacted my local council, saying I'd like to register and take training in the spring so I can be ready next fall, but have gotten no reply. That was a month ago. (I know they're busy with getting stuff ready for this year, but still.) I recently learned that they are no longer scheduling regular training sessions, and have switched to an "as-needed" training schedule on a unit-by-unit basis, and dropped the "homestudy" option. Seems like they're going backwards when all the other competing organizations are moving foward full speed.

Well, this discussion at least explains why it's not a national award! Twenty degrees below zero... geez. My state's record is 17 below - set more than 100 years ago, in 1893. We're lucky to get a couple inches of snow each year.

jmwalston, Did the area directors oversee the skills testing/assessment for each requirement, or did they just sign the blue cards based on what the instructor told them? Bob White, I read the "assist with instruction" line to mean that staff members under age 18 can't teach solo. That would be instructing, not assisting.

In searching for something on scouting.org, I came across this statement regarding merit badge counselors that piqued my interest. The same qualifications and rules for merit badge counselors apply to council summer camp merit badge programs. All merit badge counselors must be at least 18 years of age. Camp staff members under age 18 may assist with instruction but cannot serve in the role of the merit badge counselor. I started teaching badges at camp on my own at age 15 (actually, 14, but don't tell anyone), signing off blue cards - the whole nine yards. Does anyone have experience with a camp that actually follows this rule? Do most camps just ignore it? Or do they fudge it, by having the 15+ year-old instructors teach the class and the 18+ year-old area directors sign off?

Just to clarify in my own befuddled head... A Boy Scout patrol can go on a 5-mile day hike, or any similar outing, without adult leadership if permission is given. A Venturing Crew can't, because G2SS only lists one exception to the rule, and crews aren't it. That about right??

Seems to be a council-level program. Ohio's Buckeye Council has bars that you can earn for subsequent years. Delmarva Council's has a similar Frostbite program with "rockers" for subsequent years.

(However, for 1 MB, I'm the only registered MBC in the whole council. It doesn't appear to be a highly sought after badge though, unfortunately, as in 4 year, no one has contacted me about it.) I'm trying to guess now... Veterinary Medicine? Textile? Pulp & Paper? Dentistry? Composite Materials? American Labor? Am I even close?

Snow caves/igloos. Make-your-own-mukluks. Snowshoeing. Tracking and trailing. Ice-fishing.

Welcome! Rodney's a nice place - I spent many an OA weekend there. A bit too hilly for my tastes, but it gets you used to walking!