shortridge

Create a Wii device out of a flexible cord, and you could have a hands-on knot-tying event. Also do orienteering, night navigation and search-and-rescue.

That is an incredibly poorly written statement in the G2SS. NJCubScouter's question hits the nail right on the head. The very next sentence, however, states: "Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA." (http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss01.aspx#c) A reasonable person could interpret that to mean that coed daytime activities, such as a day hike or trip, do not require both male and female adult leaders (or even adult leaders, period). If a new Scout patrol of 11-year-olds on their way to First Class can go off on a day hike on their own with the Scoutmaster's permission, it's counterintuitive to think that a crew of 14+ year-olds would not be allowed to do the same thing. (Alas, counterintuitive doesn't always mean it's OK by the BSA.) General question: If the members wished it, couldn't a large crew be split up into smaller patrols or other equivalent groups (call them corps, platoons, teams, or whatever you wish)?

Can't speak for GW, but there has been some controversy about whether he's allowed to call himself a SEAL based on his service as a member of UDT.

"Saying that many or most leaders do not do this is an unsubstantiated generalization that insults the many adults who work very hard to do a good job teaching outdoor skills in the BSA." I don't mean to nitpick - but conversely, how can we make generalizations such as this without having met, interviewed and observed many adults in action? (And what's the numerical cutoff for "many" vs. "most"? 33 percent vs. 51 percent? ;-) ) I believe that it's a far better use of our time to discuss the issue at hand - which several folks here report they see from their respective points of view - and not split hairs over the definition or use of a single word. I know lots of people who work very hard, but nevertheless don't do a good job teaching outdoor skills. They simply lack the background and experience, and don't think learning applies to them - only to their Scouts. I like the idea of adult-only training at summer camp. Most already offer SSD, Climb On and LNT training of some sort. It'd be really easy to put together a program that educates on other topics while not insulting people who don't think their skills NEED any improvement. I'd also suggest you try to get your local OA lodge or chapter involved. There have got to be more than a few eco-enthusiasts there.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

If everyone on this board avoided generalizations about leaders, Scouts, councils, districts, professionals, the OA, Venturing and summer camps because they haven't interviewed a majority of the 1.2 million leaders out there, the only forum that would be thriving would be Issues & Politics. (And yes, that is a sweeping, overly-broad generalization - for the purpose of making a point.) For what it's worth, many if not most of the Scouters I have encountered in my neck of the woods would fall under what Lisabob describes. (And that includes me! I can cover the basics, but I know enough to know that I don't know everything.) The folks who really like going outdoors and whose units have a good, active outdoor program are interested in pioneering, backpacking, watersports. Conservation and ecology are relatively low on the list of areas of expertise. FYI, NPR is radio, not TV.

I worked in Ohio for about five years, but I've never been to Seven Ranges - it just came up after a Google search for the Burroughs Award. It sounds like a program worth stealing.... err, borrowing. :-) I find it fascinating, in a horrifying sort of way, that Scouting has two stances on consuming wild foods. From the Boy Scout Wilderness Survival merit badge: "Explain why it usually not wise to eat edible wild plants or wildlife in a wilderness survival situation." From the Venturing Ranger Award Wilderness Survival core requirements: "Explain the usefulness and drawbacks of obtaining food in the wilderness, including things to avoid. Prepare and eat at least one meal with food you have found in the outdoors." Yes, I know that Venturing and Boy Scouts are two separate programs; yes, I know the Ranger Award is designed for a higher level of skill proficiency than merit badges. But since the Venturing model is based on outside consultants, there's no firm standard.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Lisabob was saying that book learnin' is "faking" anything. I understood part of her point to be that she's encountered many an adult with only superficial knowledge of what they profess to be an expert in. As CalicoPenn reminds us, that little bit of information can be dangerous. ASM915 - I love the idea of the Burroughs Award. Is that at Seven Ranges, in the Buckeye Council? Personally, I enjoy (sarcasm alert) talking with Scouters who say Wilderness Survival should include living off the land, eating nuts, berries and plants, small game, etc. Sure, sir, go ahead... you just take the first nibble of that "parsnip root," and I'll be right behind you.

As for the fiancee, what did she do while she was there? This was my first question, too. Was she working on staff as well? Or just hanging out? I worked on a resident camp staff once where a 21+ y/o girlfriend-boyfriend couple both worked together and lived together in a staff cabin. It devolved into a bad situation, for a variety of reasons. (Including little privacy + thin cabin walls + arguments = camp gossip.) Neither that situation nor the one srisom described is appropriate. The rules are clear, and you either work and live by them or you don't. That DE is going to have a hard time explaining/enforcing the rules in the future. This is off-topic, but I do think this points to a growing potential problem. If councils want to recruit and retain qualified, mature, experienced staff members, they're going to have to make some major accomodations or changes, in areas ranging from scheduling to family arrangements. Sooner or later, the pool of available 21+ y/o applicants is going to shrink to a non-sustainable level, especially as the economy tanks and people want full-time, year-round work. A BSA camp seeking to offer the best, most varied program possible needs nine 21-year-olds to meet national standards: camp director, program director, aquatics director, horsemanship instructor, camp chaplain, COPE director, and rifle, shotgun and muzzleloading range officers. (Of course, all but CD and PD are technically optional, but how many camps these days lack a pool, rifle range or COPE course?) College students can't fill the ranks forever - as they move up and out, you're going to put a tremendous amount of time constantly training the new young Turks. And for some jobs, it's very desirable to have someone older than 21 in charge (aquatics, shooting sports, COPE). Eight-to-five hours, living spaces for families, half-session work schedules, even on-site child care for single parents - toss all those ideas into the mix and stir rapidly.

A fellow from Scotland was the archery director one of my first years of summer camp. We invited him to eat lunch in our campsite one day, and he took great pleasure in watching our mouths drop as he described haggis. Needless to say, none of us believed him until we got back home and looked it up. More than 15 years later, and I'm still not sure I'd be brave enough to try it.

Scoutmaster Greg House? Now THAT would be my kind of troop. ;-)

I think it's working... I see an ad for "Bizarre Foods," every Tuesday at 10 on the Travel Channel.

It's the 2008 printing. Kind of a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.

While recently reading the Ranger Handbook, I noticed that on page 66, the Resources list for the Watercraft elective included the notation "Buy the book today!" for six such books listed. Seemed rather odd. It appears that someone from Crew 369 of Columbus, Ohio, posted information from the Handbook, including requirements, on its Web site (http://post369.columbus.oh.us/index.01.html), and included links so folks could buy the books online. Then someone editing or compiling the new Handbook copied and pasted those lists verbatim (obviously without the help of copy editors). The big question this raises to me is whether the resources listed underwent any vetting whatsoever, or if the entire book is a copy-and-paste job. Anyone have any insight?

LOL...

When I went to summer camp a couple decades ago, these two merit badges were not offered as structured classes that required a sign-up. Rather, the shelter area outside the trading post (where the materials could be purchased) had the tools and counselors available all day long from 30 minutes after breakfast until about an hour before dinner. Was it popular? I just can't see a camp director today trying to justify having someone effectively "stand around" without a scheduled class to teach, from a budgetary standpoint. That mindset doesn't exist anymore. (If you have an "open" program that's proven popular - open swim, open shoot, open archery, open boating - that's different.) Just like everyone else these days, camps have got to use their resources in the most efficient manner possible. If I can shift my handicrafts instructor over to the pool as a lifeguard during two un-utilized sessions, then I'm sure as heck going to do it.

"I inform the camp that I won't bother sending my scout to the classes until they can get the class size down to a manageable size. If the scouts aren't missed then their better off not going." Well, that's easy - put size limits on the classes, say a max of 10-12 Scouts. Then sit back and watch the complaints come in from leaders and parents whose registrations weren't in earlier and whose Scouts are now forced into so-called "boring" classes, the only ones left. Or you can put size limits on the classes and hire more instructors so everyone gets their first or second program choice. Then sit back and watch the complaints come in from leaders and parents who now have to pay more to undewrite the additional salaries. Or you can cut down on the number of troops that can come during each session. Then sit back and watch the complaints come in from leaders and parents who now have to pay more to operate the same level of program with less money. Wingnut - Sorry if this seems snarky, but it really is a lose-lose situation for the camp.

I'm just thinking back to how my early leaders taught me basic skills, and comparing that to the instructional training I got on camp staff and at NCS. We reviewed the skills, practiced them ourselves, wrote out a lesson plan, rehearsed any necessary stand-up "lectures," practiced teaching the skill to our fellow staffers pretending to be Scouts and then got a critique. I'm just curious if modern adult leader training gets that hands-on, or if the instructional skills are just theoretical. Even experts in a field can't always teach it well.

In what kind of an accent does "a three 'el' lllama" come out as three-alarmer??

"That's scarey." According to the Scientologists, founder L. Ron Hubbard was an Eagle Scout and met Calvin Coolidge. They state he was the nation's youngest Eagle, at 13, but that seems debatable. Info and picture: www.scientology.org/interview/lronhubbard.html

Sorry, but where are you seeing the Dianetics ad? If it was a GoogleAds thing, site owners generally don't control what goes up.

Forgive my ignorance in advance, but I'm genuinely curious. In what stages or courses of BSA adult leader training today are leaders taught "how to teach"? And does this consist of hands-on instructional practice, or just standing up in front of a class with a flip chart and Sharpie?

You're reacting just right. I had adult-style YP training first hammered into me at age 13 - my first year as a summer camp CIT. The basic principle is that you don't let yourself get in a sticky situation. It's your responsibility to stay aware and keep thinking.

I don't know that I'd have gotten the point of the OAImages blog post. Generally, satire includes some really obvious tongue-in-cheek statement that makes folks realize it's false. This didn't.

You're right. There is no such authority, and your council ought to apologize and run a correction. This is just one example of the many misconceptions and outright falsehoods that folks spread about the flag (i.e., it can't touch the ground or you have to burn it). It is a source of constant amazement to me how many ordinarily intelligent adults can get so worked up and lose their skepticism when it comes to the American flag. The idea from OGE about using cords is interesting. As part of a two-person disposal team, I've almost gotten burnt several times - and my partner did get singed once, expressing his displeasure with a non-Scoutlike word. We had a surplus of old flags and did a retirement ceremony at the closing resident camp campfires, just like oldsm described in his council.

Just as an observation, "America's Oldest Scout Camp" is certainly a more powerful slogan to rally the crowd around than "America's Tied-For-Second-Oldest Scout Camp, We Think." I'm kind of surprised to have found no local media coverage of this. Anyone seen anything that I've missed?