Sentinel947

Good luck! If you get stumped, let us know! Thanks for volunteering!

This scenario is actually really common. It's how my troop was growing up and how my current troop operates. In many units it's an ingrained tradition. "but we've always done it this way." It's wrong as far as the BSA is concerned. I think it's unnecessary to retest Scouts. Generally I don't think it points to abusive adults, merely misguided ones. So OP, if your son likes this troop otherwise, I'd play along. If not, look for another troop. I'm a ten year insider and I can't change this culture in my troop. A fairly new parent will simply be brushed aside as being a meddler and a helicopter.

Cambridge, I'll be able to keep Packsaddle company when we are both stuck awake tonight. =P. Good thing I keep my camping gear under the bed. No room for the dog or the licker. SSScout, I love that skit idea. JBlake: the worm story sounds hilarious!

I'm getting a few Flag Reports about this thread. I think the question has been answered satisfactorily. Sentinel947

I'm not for this, but I can't put my finger on why exactly. I've never seen an official BSA publication or anything historical advocate for this approach, nor am I aware of it being part of Wood Badge.

Just to summarize as most others have hit my points. If you are running an OA, District, Council or National Event, the event should not take place on an important religious holiday. As for your unit, that depends on the Scouts in the unit. If you know you have no Jewish Scouts, then camping over Yom Kippur would be fine. If you do, then by camping on Yom Kippur you exclude those Scouts, which isn't fair. I feel like it's pretty common sense here. Yours in Scouting, Sentinel947

Stosh: I'm going to be frank, I'd appreciate if you stop putting words in my mouth. I'd appreciate if you take comments with a grain of salt, and don't automatically assume the worst about every other poster here and their methods and practices. I can jump the shark and make erroneous suggestions about you, but I don't because I value your opinions, I admire the way your run your troop, and I enjoy having a dialogue on how to better serve my Scouts. When discussing posts, I always try to assume good will and that people are doing right by their Scouts until hard evidence otherwise. So lets get started with your last post. 1. To use the testing and school analogy, Scouts are in the period of time where they are still learning the material of Scouting and lessons of life in general. Does testing go on in Scouting? Yes. Scouts have to show they can perform a requirement before it is signed off. They are often tested in other non measurable ways by being confronted by new challenges. When I think of "testing" coming from Scout leaders, I assume that those Scout leaders are acting as the holy er than thou guardians of the sacred order of Eagle Scouts, who are anti fun, troop method leaders who pencil whip the crap out of their Scouts. Tin Gods basically. I know this doesn't apply to you Stosh. However, that is why I reject the testing label. In my neck of the woods, with big suburban troops, that's the implication I get from testing. I hope that helps you understand my rejection of the testing label. 2. When I listed my three principles of a POR, it wasn't an exhaustive list, and it doesn't apply to all positions. Furthermore, I go by the BSA's definitions of the positions, and the Scouts and My expectations of their work stems from those. Will a Librarian show leadership? No not really, but he will grow because of the responsibility and ownership he will hold while in the POR? Yes. I believe it's important that they understand what they POR is about so meaningful expectations can be put in place at the beginning. This helps so that there are no surprises at the end where work wasn't done and it generally enables the Scout to do a better. It sets them up for success under "Trust them, Train them, Let them Lead." 3. When I talk about them learning without adult interference, you and I really do agree more then you think we do. I'm not advocating hovering. I don't think Old Eagle is either. Your line: " I absolutely agree with that statement. The ASMs in my troop and Old Eagle's are there to help when asked. When they ask, it's much better to guide them to the answer, rather than simply tell them it. Not every adult leader will allow Scouts space, but you should assume goodwill with Old Eagle and I. That we are trained and experienced Scouters, and that while we might do things a bit differently, the same principles of youth leadership and ASM non interference are there. 4. I'm a 20 year old ASM. I haven't forgotten how to manipulate the world of adults as a youth, and still do from time to time in other facets of my life. While I don't have as much "authority" in my unit, I have the advantage of being relate able, trusted by the Scouts, and having a knowledge of what they are looking for. I do my best to clear adults away from them and give them chances to run their own troop. 5. Again, here you put words in my mouth and assumed ill will. You read my posts assuming I'm a Troop Method, hovering SM or a pushy parent. I'm not. Overall, I agree and practice things the way you describe them. However, at the beginning of a POR I sit down with Scouts and help them understand the expectations for the job. This doesn't mean I tell them what to do, or how to do it. Simply, here's what the job is supposed to perform. If you get totally stuck with an issue, ask the ASPL or SPL or a Scoutmaster. This helps them better perform the job, and gives the SM and the SPL some recourse if the Scout completely blows the job off. When the time comes for evaluating how they did they have perspective from the conversation at the beginning. I think it's unfair for them to just be thrown into the job, given no guidance by anybody, and then denied at the end because they didn't do what was expected. I don't actually believe that's how you operate Stosh. The BSA makes perfectly clear that a SMC is not the first place to drop the hammer on a Scout who didn't perform the Position of Responsibility to the SM liking. If you argue to the contrary, then we must agree to disagree. I've assumed good will in my post, and if I misinterpreted you Stosh, please let me know. I'm not here to critique your approach as much as understand it. As an young ASM in a Troop that is adult lead making a hard transition to youth led, with all the backsliding and challenges that come with it, I'm trying to gain perspective from as many ASM/SM's as I can so if/when my number is called to be an SM, I do right for the Boys and right by the BSA.

I agree with Fred here. We shouldn't wait till the end of a Position of Responsibility to talk to a Scout about how the job is going. That's not fair to them.

With all due respect, your CC needs to stay in his lane and stop back seat Scoutmastering. If he's trained, he needs to do his job and let you do yours.

You cannot save a Scout from their parents. We know the way the program is supposed to run. We know that rank advancement is a means to an end. Many parents view Eagle as the most important end to the program.

Likewise in my unit, our Assistant Scoutmaster's also conduct Scoutmasters conferences due to the size of my troop. 80+ Scouts. The BSA's training on SMC's can be found here. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18-629.pdf "In large troops, delegating this function may be necessary, especially when large numbers of Webelos Scouts are joining the troop. In these cases, an experienced assistant Scoutmaster can fill in to conduct the Scoutmaster conference. Remember however, that this first Scoutmaster conference is vital to the new Scout’s development. Even in a large troop, a Scoutmaster should not delegate a conference with any candidate for Star, Life, and Eagle." With that being what it is, I wouldn't allow a JASM to do Scoutmaster conferences in my troop. Mostly because the BSA makes no affirmative provision for it, and the parents would be up in arms about it. That being said, I do believe JASM is an ASM in training. I know there are many different thoughts about the position. My troop has received good use out of them (JASM's) (Although I was never offered to be a JASM when I was a Scout.) If you are unsure about the position, the person to ask is really your Scoutmaster. Since he will be delegating tasks down to you. One of my first tasks when I became a new ASM was to advise the guides when the webelos came into the Troop. I wouldn't stand in the room and breathe down their necks, but I'd talk to the guides before and after the meetings to see how things where going, and give advice as needed. On camping trips I'd be there to assist or help the Guides work through issues that came up with the New Scouts. The change from being an SPL to being an ASM/JASM is really going from being the dude in charge to being an advisor. As an advisor one of the biggest challenges is not forcing Scouts to do things your way, and sometimes that means watching things not go as smoothly as we would like, but thats how Scouts learn. By trying things themselves, leading themselves, and getting advice from older Scouts and adults when they absolutely can't get something. Sentinel947

Hello! Welcome to Scouter.com As a 20 year old ASM myself, I think JASM is a great way for Scouts near to aging out to begin the transition to being an Adult leader. What that means in practice is up to the Scoutmaster of your Troop. In my troop, JASM's function largely as advisors to the SPL and Patrol leaders. They are there to coach those other leaders when they are stumped or need a little bit of help. Perhaps this will help you. http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php...nt_Scoutmaster Note according to BSA policy, ASM's should not be doing Scoutmaster conferences. Certainly this is not part of the job of a JASM. You perform functions that an ASM is supposed to fill (advisor, conflict resolution) while being more approachable because of your age. (TL;DR) JASM is what you and your Scoutmaster make of it. To answer your question, the BSA doesn't encourage ASM's or JASM's to do Scoutmaster's conferences. Congratulations on being SPL and I hope you will stick around on the forums with us. Sentinel947

So where do you send 300 or so campers during severe weather?

Having read the document in question, it still doesn't validate the camp leaders directive.(Not that you said it did NJ) While two leaders on the trip is a barrier to abuse and good for oversight and safety of the Scouts, both leaders do not need together at all times. I do prefer have other adults within sight of me at all times, but it's not required as long as we aren't one on one with Scouts. What creates problems with the YPT training is when people take the rules that are meant to be separate as being together. Two leaders on the outing. No one on one contact. Having the two leaders together helps prevent one on one contact and is a really good idea, but there are situations where it isn't necessary or practical. (Do we need two adults in every car on the way to a trip?) (Do we need two adults to walk two cubs to the restroom?) Sometimes common sense needs to be used. Sentinel947

As far as I understand, there are two YPT rules that are separate and distinct. My knowledge of applying it to cubs is sketchy, since I've never been a cub leader. (Buyer beware!) Rule one: no one on one contact. Rule two: two adults( one who's over 21 and registered and YPT trained) on every trip. These rules do not necessarily apply together, IE Two adults within view of each other regardless of the number of Scouts. While having two adults go with the Cubs provides more oversight for everybody, it's not required by BSA rules. I believe however, it's preferable to have one parent go with two cubs letting two tigers walk by themselves. Going off the cuff here, but I believe for tenting , one parent cannot tent with their son and somebody else's cub, but I'm not entirely sure of that. Anybody else know?

As a leader who's been awarded a mentor pin, I'd thought I'd weigh in. I don't wear mine on my BSA uniform because it is unofficial. I don't correct other people who do wear them. I wear it with pride on my lapel when I go to church or the rare occasions I attend COHs not in uniform. I'm not going to comment on UP other than it's not worth pissing people off over mentor pins or other tiny details of the uniform.

Two sides to every story, but that situation is insane. I also imagine that the council executive is out of his mind or does not understand the situation or the laws.

I like Ricks answers as well. I like the discussion we are having. Perhaps the question belongs in a new thread but, why girls? Isn't there value, like in single sex sports leagues, in giving boys and girls a place where pressure to impress the opposite sex is not present?

Your son's Scoutmaster is probably well intentioned, but that is not a real regulation. The Scout leader understands that a Scout should do merit badges with a variety of counselors, but he cannot MAKE a Scout use a variety of counselors.

To whom it may concern: After watching this thread a little longer, I'm going to have to say a few more words. From this moment on, any insults or ad hominem attacks will be removed. Un-Scoutlike language will also be removed. If after my cleaning of your post, you believe it was unjustified, I'd be happy to talk to you over Private Message about it.(Provided that PM's work.) I will leave my name on the edit notes. I don't want to, but if I have to I will close the thread. This is not aimed at anybody specifically. Both the progressive and conservative sides here have done this, and I have decided that it's out of control. Ultimately this website is an extension of our own Troops or Roundtable. What is unacceptable in terms of behavior or language there is inappropriate here. We wouldn't let our Scouts act this way, so we should be held to that same standard. Having no children, I have no side to take on Scouts Marching in Pride Parades. I have no agenda to push, and I'm not on anybody's side. While we might disagree with each others opinions and beliefs here, the rules of the game here are being courteous and kind. I admire everybody's passion for the topics, but it gets carried too far. The anonymous nature of the internet is not a licence to say whatever you want. For too long on this website, it has been. That ends now. Questions? Comments? Concerns? Private Message me. Yours in Scouting, Sentinel947

In my unit, JASMs are former SPLs and generally Eagle Scouts who are close to aging out. We use it as a transition to being an adult leader. Two deep on outings and no one on one contact are two separate and distinct rules. Only the scoutmaster at a PLC meeting is keeping with the rules. It is mentioned in the Scoutmasters handbook. If anybody is interested I can find the page.

I don't have much to add, having no children myself, my first impulse is giving the Scout a second chance. Part of that is dependent on the individual Scout. The more I read the posts of Parents here, I realized that the interest of the troop, and the trust that parents must place in the Troop, far outweighs the rehabilitation Scouting might be able to do for the Scout in question. I do not agree with posts that advocate giving him Eagle anyways. Rank Advancement is not an end to itself. it does not exist in a vacuum outside the program. The Scout committed a crime, while with the Troop. Unlike many youth activities, Scouting has an explicit goal to help Scouts learn good character and be a good citizen. Without being there I can't say what I would do, but I feel like their is a disconnect between being a Character building organization, and granting a Scout who just tried to give weed to another Scout his Eagle. Perhaps time heals all wounds? I don't know, it's a tough situation. Sentinel947

At the risk of being accused of Administrative Censorship, I'd like to throw my two cents into the wind here. After six pages of rehashing the same points and trying to catch the opposing side in "gotcha" statements, What is going to be accomplished with this thread? I think it is about time that this thread dies a noble, natural death. (Which is hypocritical of me posting, and prolonging the thread.) There are more personal attacks here then I could possibly censor if I had either the time or desire to. I respect every bodies passion for culture war issues, but I don't think they are going to be resolved here on Scouter.com. I'll let everybody continue the thread if they want, and I'll continue to go back to observing the Issues and Politics forum. Everybody have a wonderful morning (or evening on the West Coast). Sentinel947