SeattlePioneer

Hello Pack Saddle, Heck--- providing links to old threads is the discussion board equivalent of Eagle Milling! However efficient, how much fun is THAT?

I'm Commissioner for a pack where a boy won the council's sales contest last year --- he sold about $4400 in popcorn and the family won a trip to Disneyland in addition to other sales prizes. I talked to the boy before the popcorn sale was over this year and he'd sold more than $7,000 in popcorn this year. We had this Scout and his Cubmaster father at our August Roundtable where they reviewed their sales methods, which were pretty analytical and well thought out.

I'm no fan of Eagle Mill troops, but they probably have their place in Scouting. Some parents like them, and perhaps some boys like that kind of program. Increasingly, I might argue, National seems to like them with their promotion of "FY1C" and rapid advancement in general. More traditional approaches to advancement can be used, and are usually still encouraged in training --- I think. And Troops will switch back and forth between styles as leaders change sometimes. All in all, that duality probably increases the number in Boy Scouts. You have to draw your own conclusions about quality of the Scouting experience, but perhaps quantity can be said to have a quality all it's own.

I would have thought the advocates of secrecy might have reconsidered this line of argument in the light of the University of Pennsylvania scandal. The issue is not NECESSARILY that OA leaders will be abusive, but about respecting the concerns that parents might have about such secrecy. Fortunately, this particular tragic episode did not involve OA. If it had or when it does, I imagine that pledges of secrecy of one kind or another will be a substantial part of the story that is luridly spread by the press. The press will publicize the BSA pledge of "no secret societies" and how that pledge was ignored and how ignoring it helped create the climate for abuse. I imagine that all across the country, reporters with visions of Pulitzer Prizes dancing in their heads are combing the country for further evidence of abusive situations that can be used to scandalize the public. It would not particularly surprise me if the OA were used to create a public relations stink, whether any actual abuse was found or not. Frankly, the alleged importance of keeping OA rituals secret is so trivial as to be absurd, in my opinion, compared to the real hazard of creating a public relations nightmare for OA and Scouting.

I found having a Den Chief was EXTREMELY VALUABLE when I was a Tiger Cub Den Leader. That's a huge sacrifice of time for a boy, and I think making every effort to recognize the Scout is desireable and worthwhile. Honoring him in both the Pack and Troop is a great idea. To me, the most important thing I did was to treat the Scout as my partner in presenting the den program, not my little helper. I consulted with my Den Chief on the kinds of things he might like to do or the things he was good at doing, and aimed to work those things into the den and pack program.

Boys like to receive talismans of achievement. Getting rid of advancement would be a major blow to Scouting. But it's not going to happen. More of an issue would be changing what kind of things are recognized. That probably is and certainly could cause mischief.

My experience with that kind of thing is that it works great the first month, but I never see the staff or other such trophy again....

I was tapped out for OA as a Scoutmaster circa 1985 and completed the ordeal. Imaintained my active OA membership as long as I was a Scoutmaster in that troop. In recent years I have had other responsibilities, which at this time include being a Cubmaster, district membership chair, Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner, Tiger Twilight Camp Director, Tiger Cub Den Leader Trainer and Unit Commissioner. I have devoted my time to those responsibilities rather than OA.

I'm a Tiger Cub Buff. As a district membership chair, I've found that aiding packs to develope a quality Tiger Cub Program every year is a key to the continued health of packs and membership growth. For that reason, I've adopted the goal of figuring out how to help packs develope that quality Tiger Cub program. To that end, I've run Tiger Cub den programs myself twice, been the Tiger Twilight Daycamp Director three times and led the Tiger Cub Den Leader training several times. My program continues to develope. This spring I expect it will include an emphasis on spring Tiger Cub recruiting by all packs in the district with a attractive recruiting events like stomp bottle rockets. Newly recruited Tiger Cub families will be targeted to spend $20 for participation in a terrific Tiger Twilight Camp in July, and part of that program will include participation in the Tiger Cub Den Leader training for an adult in each family. The Tiger Den Leader Training will take place a week or two before the Tiger Twilight Camp. This is the regular Tiger Cub Den Leader Training, which emphasizes how to plan and direct a quality Tiger Cub Den program. That will be the "theory" of how to run a Tiger Cub program. Participation in the Tiger Twilight Camp will be a practical example of what a terrific Tiger Cub program should look like and feel like for adults and Scouts. I notice a couple of people mentioned that their enjoyment of the Tiger program was impaired by not understanding the program. My plan is designed to answer that very common problem, and to have cadres of trained and experienced Tiger Cub Den Leaders ready to start the fall program with a bang! There is more I'd consider doing to aid in these goals, such as having a district Tiger Cub hike and hot dog roast as an August or September Go-See-It and a Tiger Cub breakout at Roundtables once in a while. Again the aim would be to show people what a terrific Go-See-It looks like and feels like.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

In a word, Rich ---- Ugh! It doesn't sound like a good program to me at ALL! Unfortunately, the ASM seems to be carrying out National's bright ideas with enthusiasm!

I designed our program to give families a choice. If they wish, they Pay $60/year for pack membership which includes a good many activities such as the Pinewood Derby. Other activities like day camp are an added expense. Or families can sell popcorn if they wish. If they sell $200 they get the pack membership, and for additional amounts they get 25% of the added sales in a Scout Account they can use for uniforms, day camp or other Scout expenses. That's working for us well this year, where with the Scout account option we tripled our popcorn sales over last year to about $8,000.

Could be worse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal_Knights_of_the_Garter.jpg

Hello Shortridge, Well, I got a nice enough e-mail back from the Membership VP who is my boss as a volunteer. She is attending the conference and said she plans to report back to district chairs --- but offered no encouragement to my attending. So I guess I'm out. While raising the issue of improving the recruiting and retention of Hispanic/Latino families, I've aimed at avoiding being a gadfly or nuisance. I've simply raised the issue when it was worth thinking about. For example, this past summer we recruited a new District Executive, and I e-mailed the VP-Membership and Field Director suggesting that this was an opportunity to recruit someone with a Latino background or the language skills and cultural familiarity to help our district improve in that area. Didn't get someone with that background though. I think it was worth raising the issue. Finding this conference on my own and then aiming to attend---is that being a gadfly? Not in my book. But if a gadfly is someone who doesn't just sit still and take what they are spoon fed, then I'm a gadfly. The Field Director didn't say the council was limited to two slots. He said the council was sending only two people. The conference announcement doesn't suggest a rigid limit on the number of people attending. Could be, I suppose. I'd be surprised though if a council that wanted to send an additional volunteer couldn't do so if they wished.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

> I know I need to review Scout skills if I'm to be able to use them when called upon. A good Scout program works that review process into the program and makes it an organic part of the program, is my experience. That way scout skills aren't foreign bodies stuck on the program, they are the heart of the program. I usually looked to games and competitions for that kind of review, and often to learn the skills in the first place when practical. Seattle Pioneer

During my last term as an AS, I remember having occasion to create exercises and games that used the bowline during troop meetings --- relay races that involved tieing a bowline to rescue a struggling Scout that need to be rescued in the "water" and such. A year later, we were doing a snowshoe hike on a cold, windy day in the backcountry when the snow was blowing around pretty well. I happened to notice that we were missing a Scout (Thank God!), and started to look around for where he might be. I finally saw him about fifty feet down a steep slope, struggling in powder snow deep enough that he couldn't get to his feet. (Had he slid down another ten feet he would have been hidden by bushes and we might have been in real trouble) Well, this was a great opportunity for a real world rescue! I had to prevent a couple of adults from monopolizing all the action, and I gave the climbing rope I carried to a Life Scout and his buddy to retrieve the Scout from the snowbank. He managed to tie a bowline and toss it down to the Scout, pretty much as we had practiced in troop meetings. The boy still wasn't able to pull himself up, so the second Scout tied a second bowline his buddy used as a backup while descending to aid the trapped Scout. The was a pretty good demonstration of "why we learn to tie knots."

> I guess I'm not getting it. A week of patrol camping seems like it would be a pretty good basis for learning cooking. Why did they need a note from home? Last summer I was a Commissioner at a Scout Camp. One of my troops was a Scoutreach troop with a young man who was an Eagle Scout as a paid Scoutmaster --- probably just 21. There was one night of patrol cooking, and this troop didn't manage to get a fire started to cook dinner. They sorta gnawed raw what was available for dinner I was told. I imagine there was a certain variability among the quality of dinner between different patrols that night, but that was the only flat failure I heard about. The ultimate lesson of Boy Scouts is that you can't BS your way when you are camping. That's what boys ought to be learning, anyway. A place a good deal of emphasis on cooking with my Cub Scouts. We have a June overnight campout. For dinner the Cub Scout wrapped potatoes in foil and baked them, then added cooked hamburger and topping and such to make a meal. They had an experience of making a simple meal for themselves. In the morning boys cook pancakes for themselves and their families. Each year I have the joy of watching several boys flip their first pancake! How the parents can miss that experience I don't know. Usually I have to chase away parents who want to take over making pancakes from Cub Scouts. It's usually the only thing you see those parents volunteering to do. These are usually the parents I figure just do not have a clue.

Some adults can be trusted and others can't. The issues on which a person can be trusted or not may vary. I see adult leaders on the OA threads who may be fine Scout leaders in many ways but are over involved in OA and think they should be abole to exclude parents from some OA ceremonies. As a new adult leader in a troop a few years ago, a mother confided in me that an Assistant Scoutmaster had has sex with her daughter in camp in a tent at the camporee we were at. It was my first outing with the troop, and frankly I listened but said and did nothing. I wound up getting out of there and volunteering with another troop. A few months later I heard that the adult leader in question had had his BSA membership revoked. There are lots of ways people can screw up. I think we all need to be on the lookout for people who have issues that need to be dealt with. I certainly expect people to scrutnize my behavior as Cubmaster, and one reason I recruited a capable Committee Chair is so that there was someone who would feel free to talk turkey to me if I needed it.

Hello KC9,

Hello Own-- > Our treasurer rarely shows up for activities. Having a three part receipt books allows each party to have a record of the transaction: 1: The person paying the money gets their receipt 2: The person who "owns" the receipt book (Cubmaster or whoever) keeps the copy in the receipt book 3: The Treasurer gets a copy of payments made, and can keep track of all the receipts issued. So even when they aren't there, they can verify that they have received a copy of each receipt issued by keeping a file of those receipts. I used to collect payments for bills for the utility I worked for, and that was the system they used. When I came in at the end of the day I paid any money received to the cashier, who collected one of the three receipts along with the money and stamped my copy of the receipt as being paid. Cash tends to be slippery. Even with good intentions it's easy to lose track of who has paid for what. Anyway, it's a system I like and tend to promote.

Hello Shortridge and Eagle 92, Thank you very much for your suggestions. As soon as a read them I sent off e-mails to the Field Director and the VP-Membership who is my volunteer boss in the council, offering to pay the cost and renewing my request to attend. Of course I was planning to pay my way anyway --- the registration cost is only $10. We'll see what happens. As a retiree I don't have anything else planned for Friday anyway. Thanks for the excellent suggestion! I was just going to feel sorry for myself.

From time to time I visit the websites of neighboring councils to see what they are doing that might be interesting or things in which I might be interested in taking part. That paid off a couple of days ago when I saw that the next door council was hosting regional membership training with an emphasis on recruiting more Scouts from minority groups. Well. That sounded idea to me! I'm starting my 8th year as a district membership chair, and I've been beugging my council for ideas on how primarily English speaking Cub Packs can impriove recruiting of Hispanic/Latino families. The program is at: http://www.pacificharbors.org/council/Mulitcultural%20Markets-Nov%2018%202011%20Flier.pdf So I sent in a request to register. Today I got a call from the council Director of Field Services discouraging me from participating. Apparently the council has to aopprove those attending and get e-mails from any person in the council who asks to register. He started out be selling me on the idea that I wouldn't be interested in the content of the program, and suggesting that in coming months the council would be sponorsing a program I would be more interested in. I responded by saying that I was interested in being more involved in council level membership issues, and that I had the time available to take in this meeting (this Friday). He then said the council was only sending two people to attend the conference, and implying that if I went one of those people couldn't attend. While that seems somewhat doubtful, that was a good card to play, and I allowed myself to be discouraged from attending. I'm not too happy with that. I've been e-mailing council officials from time to time over the Hispanic Scouting recruiting issue for a year now. The comments from this Firld Director indicate he is informed on this issue, but it's just not a priority for him at this time. I'm interested in doing more at the council level, but trying to muscle my way in is unlikely to be the Boy Scout way. Too bad. I would have been very interested in attending, and I would have paid my own registration fee.

Personally I hate having "This Is Scouting" as a requirement. I don't think adults should be required to sit through BSAs propaganda campaign for programs adults haven't volunteered to lead. I consider it ABUSIVE.

My theory is that the FC1Y goal came from a national finding that boys stayed with Scouting if they made First Class in a Year. Since Numbers Rule, I suggest this is membership based. I recently completed training for district membership chairs given by the council Membership VP who is a woman with Cub Scouting experience but she's never mentioned any Boy Scout experience. Her comment was that "we all know" that Boy Scouts is supposed to be boy led, but that important goals like FC1Y wont be met if leadership is left to boys, so of course adults have an important role in planning to achieve such goals. I objected to that pretty strenuously, but it's pretty telling I think. FC1Y, then similarly grease the skids so that the number of boys can get their Eagle a couple of years after that. Adult leadership to organize that process. Adults are the ones who can analyze the advancement process and apply grease on any sticky wicket that might impair a boy from achieving Eagle if he has a parent clearing the way for him.

Wal Mart has oriteneering compasses available for a few bucks. It's all a Boy Scout would need. And I'd look for some cord a Scout can use to make a lanyard himself, rather than buying something. Good knot practice, too.

Unfortunately, Brotherhood makes an excellent case and example for shutting down OA. Overinvolved, willfull adult leaders in positions of leadership are something BSA simply can't afford. If he's been able to hold a position of leadership in OA for an extended period of time with the attitudes he displays here, there is certainly something seriously wrong. If Brotherhood would care to e-mail me with his name, BSA registration number or some other means I would like to forward a copy of this thread to the Council Executive of the Grand Columbia Council so that they can decide if some kind of investigation or counseling of this Scouter might be in order. His attitude strikes me as wrong and risky, but that's simply my opinion. I do think the council leadership should be informed so they can decide what, if any, action might be appropriate.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)