SeattlePioneer

Hello Tampa, I'm supposing this remark is a joke, but can you describe your experiences in more detail?

Just a thought, but you might consider organizing a Webelos-To-Scout transition program of some kind. That might give you an opportunity to sell Webelos Scouts on the OA program and give you an opportunity to provide access to Webelos Scouts to Scoutmaster eager to recruit those boys for their troops. What I'm suggesting is that you look for new ways to market your program to key decision makers. Personally I don't think the feathers and dancing are the best marketing tools for OA to use.

Hello Scouting, Your point is well taken. Last summer I was a Camp Commissioner at one of our council camps. It was an interesting look at how things work. The Camp Director was a former camp Program Director who had three years in as my District Executive. At the end of the summer, his Program Director was hired to be a council District Executive. Some areas of the camp, notably shooting sports and aquatics, run at high standards by capable people. However, I found the Trail to First Class program poorly run mostly by 13 year old Commissioners in Training who hadn't learned the skills they were supposed to teach, and didn't have the materials they needed to teach either. I imagine a PWC program can be done well or poorly too. While 16 year olds are capable of a lot more than younger Scouts, whether it is wise to give people modest levels of training and turn them loose in areas of open water is a reasonable question, in my mind. I'd want to look at how it works in practice. If Scouts head out for riding the wake of 600 foot container ships steaming past at 20 knots, perhaps some limitations are in order. Also, there may be destinations suitable for exploring using a PWC. That might be suitable for an outing by a group of PWCs under an experienced leader. There are plenty of hazards on the water that someone can get into trouble with, regardless of age. Not just training, but experience is needed to deal with those hazards wisely. Just for openers, what would you do if you were ten miles from your Scout Camp on a mile wide waterway and your PWC swamped and would no longer start or run? Suppose you are passing a rocky shore when the engine quits and you are being blown onto the rocks? By the way, it's starting to get dark and the wind is now kicking up white caps. Suddenly you are cold with incipient hypothermia and FEAR. Your teeth are chattering. Around here, even small power boats traveling on open water often have combinations of anchors, radios, oars and outboard kickers to help deal with such problems. It's not just an issue of age. You need to look at the variety of ways someone can get into trouble with such equipment and consider how well anyone, regardless of age, will be able to deal with problems.

As a Cubmaster, I've been pretty frustrated with the program put on by den leaders pretty often, and not skilled in doing much about it. A few years ago, I was a Tiger Cub Den Leader for Tiger Cub Dens in two different packs. I took the training and aimed to follow it, and had good results because of that. Since then I've led our Tiger Twilight Camp during the summer three times --- last summer I led two Tiger Cub Dens of six Scouts each, and I'm sure Scouts and adults had a cracking good time. One of my purposes was to train adults in how to provide a quality Tiger Cub Program in their packs this year. I've taken all the Cubmaster training too. But my experience in getting den leaders to function well is limited. I have a Wolf Den Leader who was a cracking good Tiger Cub Den Leader (and who took my district Tiger Cub Den Leader Training) He's going to be replacing me as Cubmaster as of the first of the year. My Webelos Den Leader is a great guy, but he's spending most of his program lecturing to his Scouts on advancement topics. I've tried to encourage a more outdoor/fun program but he's mired in advancement hell. I worked to get our Tiger Cub Den program started last May with newly recruited families, but that has been a big struggle. One parent took my district Tiger Cub Den Leader training in November, and his program last night showed some promise for the first time. There are some enthusiastic parents, but they need leadership to put things together. Unfortunately, it seems that playing with children is a skill that takes a fair amount of understanding and some training to "get." And then some work and imagination to make it pay off. If I try to intervene too much, parents tend to step back and let me do it. If I don't intervene, parents tend to flounder around without a good idea of what to do and how. Despite the time and effort I've spent over three years rebuilding a pack that was down to one boy, I don't have the pack established as firmly and effectively as I would wish. Any bright ideas on how to improve the leadership of Den Leaders by the Cubmaster?

Hello Eagle92, The IOLS course I've been enthusiastic about is sort of an ongoing co-op among experienced Scouters from three districts. It's not an ad hoc group thrown together for each training course. Most of the people leading various training elements have been doing their element for years. So they are VERY good at what they do. The guy leading the map and compass element is a civil engineer, as an example. The Scouter leading the element about knife and axe safety and sharpening is from my district --- he's a master at the skill and the sharpest knife in the drawer on the subject. Two old Scouters lead the fire building skill session and again they are masters of the craft. I was so impressed that after taking the course I signed up with them and was the Patrol Guide for two of these courses. The thing I personally found most valuable was the ceremony they had at the conclsion of the course. It was a TERRIFIC candle oriented ceremony which really taught me the power a good ceremony can have on people --- even including adults. I've made a point in polishing my skills inj that area since that time. And since this is widely known among district Scouters, it's promoted widely amonth all three districts, with 4-6 patrols being formed for each course. It's an example of how talented leadership can create a high quality program that is inspirational --- another important Scouting principle people should learn.

While off topic, here is a good article describing how liberal race discrimination disadvatages Asians---- http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Some-Asians-college-strategy-Don-t-check-Asian-2342006.php#photo-1856714

Probably the most conspicuous failure of the constitution was the effort to enforce the idea of a limited Federal government by constitutional restrictions. Those restrictions and limitations have mostly been ignored. Even Thomas Jefferson famously wrung his hands over the lack of constitutional authorization for making the Louisiana Purchase. In the end he ignored the lack of authorization and bought it anyway. That's been typical ever since, and the Supreme Court has usually been willing to ignore constitutional limitations on Federal power as well. About the only limitations on Federal power are political, not constitutional. I think it's fair to say that the Tea Party has aimed to raise political objections to Federal power. Tough sledding though.

Our district combines with two other districts to put on an excellent IOLS program in the fall and spring. Part of that also incorporates the Webelos training for Den Leaders as well. It has plenty of value for people new to the outdoors and for experienced outdoorspeople who don't have experience with CURRENT BSA practices and methods. Wouldn't change a thing! Of course this training has it's limitations. It's not going to turn someone without outdoor skills into a competent outdoor leader without more training and lots more experience. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Unfortunately, Beavah can not only remember arguments used to justify race discrimination, it's the ONLY kind of argument he can understand. He suggests that youths can obtain pilot licenses to sustain his argument. In order to obatin a pilots license a person of any age has to pass significant practical and technical exams, not true for those using PWCs. There is an age test to obtain a private pilot's license --16. The extensive list of requirements, practical experience and technical exams is listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Pilot_License If PWC users had similar requirements I don't think anyone would have objections. They don't. And you can't be an ionstructor or fly for pay with a Private Pilot License. If you want pretty much any kind of license to operate vessels at sea for pay from the Coast Guard, there is an age test. Here's probably the simplest to obtain, which requires a minimum age of 18 for carrying small numbers of passengers: http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists/MCP-FM-NMC5-57%20OUPV.pdf Unfortunately, I'd have to describe Beavah's judgment in such matters as being ludicrously impaired. He's just warped by his insistance that racial tests and age tests are the same thing. Of course, while once liberals and the Supreme Court attacked racial tests in the most stringent terms, for many decades now they extenuate racial quotas for employment, college admissions and government contracting and other areas. So even in this area, race discrimination remains in fashion by the liberal left. Indeed, the liberal left attacks those who oppose quotas as being racist these days. As a matter of fact, the Obama Administration has just rolled out a new campaign to revitalize racial discrimination in college admissions.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

So Beavah, Is any distinction based on age then an example of being an ignorant bigot? I might point out that the laws of the United States are shot through with such distinctions. Are age limits for driving motor vehicles, voting or buying alcohol laws motivated by ignorant bigots? Thank you for providing yet another example of why liberals like you are so often hated by people who resent their condescending attitudes.

Not surprisingly, once again anyone who disagrees with Beavah's biases is an ignorant bigot.

> That seems a trifle open ended. The training your describe is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't really go very far. Pointing Scouts to a major waterway after minimal training and with no supervision by an experienced leader sounds unwise to me. Leading a supervised outing to some interesting location would sound like a better activity to me. A PWC can travel 40 MPH. Suppose after an hour one or more don't come back. What do you do?

Hello Two Cub, Wow! That's an example of a Four Alarm Homesickness Conflagration worse than anything I've ever heard about before!

Yep--- my reaction is to be sceptical of a PWC/ATV program. Perhaps that's a lack of imagination on my part. Generally, my aim is to run a frugal program. But others may find ways to run a great Scouting program using this equipment. I can't say I've seen how to do that described so far in this thread, but I invite innovators with experience with this equipment to explain what that kind of program would look like!

Hello Horizon, I think the video puts Scouting on display in a very favorable light, highlighting the kind of diversity characteristic of Scouting. It only makes a mockery of those leading vitriolic hate campaigns against Scouting. The arguments for or against homosexual marriage will continue as a values issues regardless of who is making the argument. Perhaps next year MoveOn will find a Scout who has two mommies and a daddy or two to start promoting polygamy. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

I'm facing this issues now. Families that sold $200 in popcorn get their memberships paid, so as soon as the money for popcorn sales is turned in, they are good. The rest of the parents know they will owe $60 to continue in the program. I will be sending out an invitation to pay at out December den and pack meetings. Those who pay or sold popcorn will be on the recharter. Those who don't wont. But here's the important issue --- they can pay the membership fee anytime to continue in Scouting. The District Executive will reactivate the membership upon payment of the fee without a new application. And I wouldn't bar people from attending den and pack meetings --- they are my opportunity to collect the fee. Similarly, signups for den and pack outings are opportunities to collect pack dues as well. The real key is understanding that it's not especially important for a Scout to be re registered as part of the rechartering process.

When a new leader completes Youth Protection and the Adult Leader Application, I award them their POR patch at the next pack meeting, a pack neckerchief and slide. The Cub Scouts helps his parent put on the neckerchief and slide. I'd award the "Trained" patch with Badge Magic on it, so it can be stuck on the leaders uniform at the pack meeting if they have one. If they don't have a uniform I might Badge Magic the "Trained" patch to their neckerchief. And I'd award them the folding pocket record that records completion of activities that lead to being awarded a knot for their office. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello skeptic, Well personally, I tend to be a skeptic myself. Perhaps you might understand that. But I'm glad to have people prove me wrong.

Heh, heh! Obama seems to be an admirable guy, except for his politics. If he had boys rather than girlz I'd recommend that he take over from me as Cubmaster!

> Heh, heh! I call PWCs the crotch rockets of the water! If someone wants to zoom around in a PWC, personally I wouldn't stand in their way (I'd want to be well out of the way!) All I've seen them used for is to zoom around at 30-40 MPH speeds with people jumping their own wakes in high speed turns for entertainment. Usually I notice that when I have my own boat tied up and am enjoying a quiet evening, or trying to. I'm nor in favor of regulating PWCs off the water, but neither do they seem like much of a Scouting program. Boats, yes! Motorboats, yes! PWCs seem pretty doubtful to me. But I'd like to see the program described in detail --- perhaps I'd be surprised.

I entered OA when I was a Scoutmaster circa 1984 or so. As I said earlier, I don't expect to change minds like yours. Perhaps I'm not correct --- just as you suggest. The one thing it sounds like we can agree on is that a complaint to a Council Executive would be an appropriate way to resolve such an issue --- which is not going to happen here. I certainly would do that if I encountered such actions by an OA adult leader at some time. And frankly, until this thread started, I'd never had anything but positive experiences with OA. But now I'm quite concerned about over involved adult leaders who are so enmeshed in the program that they might well engage in behavior that would be detrimental to Scouting. That might be why increasing numbers of Scoutmasters want nothing to do with the program.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

> Heh, heh! I think I'd prefer the original to the pale imitation! I actually think Obama has been an unusually decent guy as President. I expected to be an Obama hater, but instead I admire the guy as a decent person. I just don't care for his politics and party. I expected Obama to rule from the left. Instead he's been a center-left President --- not too bad especially when he is otherwise a decent guy. Newt has some of the devil in him! He would certainly liven up a Presidential debate with Obama --- I'd like to see that! Clinton had some of the political devil in him too. That's really to be expected in a President.

Hello Shortridge, Well, the issue seems pretty clear to me. But others seem unpersuaded. I don't find that surprising --- few people change strongly held opinions based on an internet discussion. And perhaps I'm wrong. That's always possible too. So what to do? Since this issue appears to me to be a youth protection policy issue, if I were confronted with it, I'd file a complaint with my Council Executive, who is the person responsible for managing youth protection policies AND OA. Let the Council Executive investigate and decide what should be done. Even if they decide an OA leader were improperly burdening a parent's right to observe a Scout activity, I'd say it's very unlikely that person would be kicked out of Scouting. They'd probably be counseled about the correct policy to follow with the expectation it wouldn't happen again. Or perhaps I'd be told that what is being done is OK. This is a way of getting an authoritative resolution of this issue, by the person charged with making the decision ---the council Scout Executive.

Heh, heh! Well OF COURSE the moral standards for Scoutmaster are higher than for US President! I seem to recall that Democrats argued that Bill Clinton shouldn't be judged on his personal moral conduct, only on the way he carried out his official tasks as President!

Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts? My council offers "camperships" for Cub Scout and Boy Scout camps and day camps. Typically half the fee remitted. Call your District Executive and ask what the council can do. They may remit the BSA registration fee or be of some other help. My pack remits about 25% of popcorn sales to Scout accounts families can use to pay Scout membership and camping fees, uniforms, books or whatever. Most families made good use of that to reduce their cash outlays. I'd talk to the parent and see what help they might need to avoid burdening the family unreasonably. I wouldn't have any problem with the unit treasury helping with that quietly. I would see that a motivated boy had the opportunity to participate in the program one way or another.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)