SeattlePioneer

Newt is a politician with REAL experience. Few people can display the scars the railroad train made when he was run over by Bill Clinton in the government shutdown episode. On the other hand, his Contract With America was an extraordinary political triumph in American history. I'm glad to have Newt as the Clay Pigeon in Chief to see how he does when everyone takes pot shots at him. He's a tough politician, sort of like Barney Frank on the Dem side I'd say. He has baggage, but also real ability and experience. Maybe he will prove himself. Maybe he will blow up like Cain and the rest. It seems we will find out in the days and weeks to come. Wow! That Cain meltdown! Spectacular!

Hello KC9, > What you are suggesting probably wouldn't be a problem. But if you read earlier in this thread, some people were talking about fast talking parents and offering objections to parents who wanted to observe OA activities until they gave up. That IS objectionable big time, in my opinion. And if you offer ANY objections to a request to observe, you are on a slippery slope. Suppose that parent wrote the Council Executive (or the newspaper) a letter saying that they had asked to observe an OA ceremony and YOU had prevented them from doing so. You might object that you merely offered an explanation, but if a parent interprets that as preventing observation is probably going to be found to be correct, and your explanations disregarded. Just today the entire front cover of "Seattle Weekly" is an illustrated story "Hands-On Experience" "Dozens of teenage Explorers have been sexually abused by police officers. Critics say the Boy Scouts, who oversee the program, should share the blame." http://www.seattleweekly.com/ We often like to think we KNOW where the danger line is, and we can dance right up to it with impunity. In fact, the smart move is often to stay well away from danger areas and take no chances with disaster.

> Heh, heh! Where is Kudu with some guidance on this issue?

For those late to the discussion: PWC = Personal Watercraft aka jet skis. ATV = All terrain vehicle aka four wheelers. I was a Camp Commissioner at a Boy Scout Camp last summer. One of the popular troop activities was "canoe swamping." A troop would sign up for time at the beach and take out canoes and compete in swamping each others canoes. That seemed to be very popular, a vigorous physical activity and a lot of fun. How does that compare as a Scout activity with revving up a PWC and jetting about a lake or bay? Another activity at the Scout Camp was bicycline along trails and over obstacles. Again that took a good deal of fitness and energy and developed (perhaps cycling skills of some kind). How does that compare as a quality Scout activity with roaring around on an ATV? National wants to promote healthy Scouts, which tends to mean more physical activity among other things. PWC and ATV seems to promote relatively passive engine driven activities. I don't doubt a lot of Scouts would prefer jetting about on a PWC to rowing, canoeing, sailing or canoe swamping. But is it really desireable to offer that choice which will tend to pinch out those other activities?

I never expect discussions on the internet to change the firmly held opinions of people who are posting. However, in this case the discussion I've seen has sensitized me to the possibility that OA adult leaders would be discouraging parents and guardians from observing OA activities, something I never would have considered before. If I heard about someone doing that, I don't think I'd even discuss it with the person. There is really no point in bandying written words or policies with people who are inclined not to use them as a guide to their behavior. This is a youth protection issue, and I now I would be inclined to file a written complaint with the Council Executive. That is really the person who decides what OA leaders should do and not do. I would expect a Council Executive to investigate such a complaint and to resolve it reasonably. That might involve a warning to an OA adult leader on how the council expects OA activities to be run. I would expect an OA leader who received such a warning to conform to it in the future, which would resolve the matter. So I don't expect this discussion to change many minds. But if those with concerns about the issue filed such complaints if the issue came to their attention, that WOULD resolve the issue, I would suppose. So that sounds like the right thing to do to me.

Oh, I don't think you get Lord of the Flies behavior from Cub Scouts. Usually you just get rather low quality play from them as I describe. That'd why they can have a box full of toys at hand and still have nothing to do. Som adult leadership is usually needed to have high quality play. And I think parents, fathers usually, often don't know how to play very well with their sons. That's one of the things Cub Scouts teaches parents rather commonly in my experience. Now boys of Boy Scout age -- THEY can do the Lord of the Flies stuff! That's why they need the adult framework and supervision Boy Scouts provides that provides focus and direction for that kind of energy. I find that the methods of using competition should change as boys mature. The competition Boy Scouts thrive on is too much for a lot of Cub Scouts most of the time. They need some time and experience to learn how to deal with competition in positive ways, and some additional maturity for many or most. I just don't see a need to push young boys into sharp kinds of competition. What's the rush?

What doies this marker mean? What does this bouy mean? Who has right of way in this situation? >> I see a certain progression that would make sense: 1. Complete the rowing or canoeing merit badge 2. Complete the motor boating merit badge, providing Scouts with a 12 foot aluminum boat and a 5 HP outboard. Providing boys with a power boat capable of 40 MPH speeds sounds like an invitation to problems to me.

Yabbut it's supposed to be fun WITH A PURPOSE. Unfortunately, this seems like another example of the Disneyfication of Boy Scouts.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello JBBlake, I imagine that absent adult direction, most boys would resort to fighting and scrapping with each other, usually the extent of most games boys devise on their own. That's pretty low quality play. What Cub Scouts does is to add some adult direction and leadership which enables boys to have much higher quality play and activities. Look at all the toys most boys have sitting around unused. Anyway, that's one of my theories about why boys like Cub Scouts. The ability of Cub Scouts to draw adults and parents into play with their children and high quality for their children are among the several reasons why parents are drawn to Cub Scouts.

If you read through this thread, you will find a number of OA leaders boasting about their ability to fast talk or otherwise discourage parents from observing OA ceremonies. That kind of attitude is pernicious and toxic in my opinion. Frankly, such people worry me. It's an attitude that is warped. How adults can fail to respect the interests of parents and put them first is beyond my understanding, especially when unambiguous BSA policy underlines that primacy. I've never had bad experiences with OA myself. But what I've read in this thread worries me a lot.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Yep, the highly competitive PWD race is capable of motivating some fathers like nothing else. That's why the excesses of the competitive model occur in the first place I think --- you have parents projecting their own needs and interests on to boys, but I find it tends to get in the way of fun and learning for most boys. But not all, just as you describe. In my experience, part of Cub Scouts is to teach parents --- usually fathers, new ways to enjoy the company of their children. I suppose that applies to the highly competitive or design obsessed father you describe as well, but it's sad if they can't unwind enough to take pleasure in things that are boy oriented rather than primarily adult oriented activities.

Yes, OA works like other parts of the program. To be specific, the Youth Protection guidelines from the Guide to Safe Scouting apply: No secret organizations. The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx#b I don't see ANYTHING that allows you to burden a parent or guardian who wishes to observe any part of an OA program.

Hello Eagle 92, Youth protection policies prohibiting secret societies and guaranteeing parents and guardians the opportunity to observe any Scout activity trump any outdated OA policy from decades past. I take it you HAVE taken that training in the past two years?

To me, First Class is the most important rank in Boy Scouts. We sell boys on Boy Scouts by promising to make them competent hikers and campers, and having adventures in the outdoors. If we do a good job, we keep that promise for boys who complete First Class. I'm all in favor of boys completing Eagle, but personally I didn't promote Eagle or provide much in the way of targeted assistance for those who achieved Eagle. A good part of the challenge was to be SELF motivated to complete the requirements, or (more often) to have a motivated parent carrying their son into the Eagle's Nest. So in my opinion, too much is made of Eagle, and too much done to promote attaining Eagle. A goodly part of the "too much" is watering down advancement standards and adult aid to make it as easy as possible for boys to achieve Eagle.

> Yes, my methods are designed to control overly aggressive competition, which is mainly a problem generated by adults. The competition begins with each boy starting with the same kit --- not a pre built PWD car bought off the internet. All the Scouts have access to the same tools and materials to build their cars, and the same amount of time to build them. Parents and sons typically work together, but often Cub Scouts will seek help from a particular parent who is specializing in some part of car building, like polishing axles. And Scouts are invited to paticipate in the district PWD which has all the competition anyone might want. Boys coming from a single mom family aren't significantly disadvantaged. I would maintain that this is at least as much of a family activity as hyper competitive events where dads do most of the PWD car construction. I've heard Boeing engineers describe how their PWD car design was executed on company six axis milling machines. I've seen numerous threads here about bad sportsmanship at PWD races --- the parents who squash a boys car to give their own sone an advantage, leading to boys having their cars taken away at a pre race day registration and never being able to touch them again until the races are completed. What my methods have to offer is a sense of proportion. It IS aimed at limiting the extent to which adult values and methods can interfere with the kind of fun boys like to have at that kind of age. And adults have a good time as well. For every Boeing engineer who doesn't get to take his sons PWD car away from him, there are numerous other parents who appreciate the common enterprise all boys experience in building their cars. As in many things, different units have different styles and methods. I'm happy with my methods, and those favoring highly competetive events are certainly welcome to their methods too.

"Ruining" the experience is of secondary importance compared with the PRIMARY obligation to provide free access for parents. That doesn't include siblings, aunts, uncles or whatever, but parents should not be discouraged in any way from attending OA ceremonies.

"A hundred men will test today But only three, earn the green beret." Has the USA improved in the past forty years?

Hello Eagledad, > Yes, I think that competition that is excessively sharp at too young an age too often does bring out the worst in boys and adults. Again, I don't have issues with competitions typically done in Boy Scouts. But in Cub Scouts parents (fathers in particular) too often create excessively sharp competitions which they then want their boy or themselves to win. The competitions often become excessively complicated in my view. Do you really need computer timed PWD races down to 1/1000 second? I look at the competitions BOYS like to do. They LIKE competitions, and they like being winners and don't mind losing, but they prefer to experience being both winners and losers. And experiencing being both a winner and loser are both good experiences. I could easily sharpen up competitions so there was one winner and forty nine losers in a Cub Scout Pack. That would be a poor activity in my view. Boys who have a PWD car or paper airplane that loses several times is motivated to analyze why and correct it right away, and see the change in performance that the change reflects. Sorry. I see many of the objections raised to be adult objections, not ones that boys would make. And again -- this kind of competition is aimed primarily at Tiger Cubs, Wolves and Bears. Webelos are probably ready for sharper kinds of competition. But in my experience, younger boys do better with simpler kinds of competition. The competition is still there for them to learn from, just not as sharp.

> Who suggested that?

Hello Stosh, I think it's important to keep the term age appropriate in mind. The difference between what to expect from Cub Scouts and Boys Scouts is huge, and I've been addressing competition in Cub Scouts. Our Tiger Cub Den recently made First Aid kits. as part of that, we used an ink pen to draw a "wound" of varying sizes in varying places on boys and they had to choose a suitable size bandage and apply it to treat the wound. Not very realistic. But it was fun for boys to stick things on each other and they probably learned something into the bargain. Tiger Cubs is MOSTLY about having fun and setting the stage for learning Scout skills in the future. By the time boys are second class in Boy Scouts, First Aid skills should be taught in a much more serious environment. The idea that we need to sharply draw winners and losers in Cub Scouts is bogus in my opinion. I prefer to use competition like a spice to motivate boys and make activities fun for them to participate in and learn. Sharply dividing boys into winners and losers usually doesn't accomplish that --- just the reverse in most cases. Perhaps what you don't realize is that it doesn't take much to motivate young boys. A simple sticker will elicit their best efforts. The defining characteristic of Tiger Cubs is that they can be intensdely interested in almost anything---- for about five minutes. Sharper competition in Boys Scouts is perfectly appropriate, perhaps even in Webelos. I just don't see it as necessary or even appropriate among Cub Scouts.

I like to have a game or competition at pack meetings. In December dens make and decorate a Christmas sleigh, with a rope out the front for the "reindeer" to pull. One Scout is Santa in the sleigh, and the rest of the den are reindeer, pulling the sleigh through the racecourse. Then a new Santa is seated and the relay race continues until everyone has been Santa. One intention is to relate this to the Klondike Derby for Webelos when they build and race a sled in the snow for real.

Hello Desert Rat, > Well, you are entitled to use your methods--- but they don't appeal to me. Often I find Pinewood Derbies where Cubs have to check their cars in days in advance and then they never touch them again. Some adult puts them on the track lest they be tampered with in some way. These competitions are usually very slow, in my experience. In my Pinewood Derbies, the boys choose the Scouts they want to race against and line up at the track. They put their own cars on and the race starts. The next group of boys are putting their cars on the track before the cars have stopped from the previous heat. Boys commonly race twenty or thirty times in an hour or so. And that's what most boys want to do in my opinion --- race as many times as possible against their buddies. There are typically several heats per minute. The Scouts all start with a standard car kit and have about an hour to build and decorate their car before the race starts. All the boys have access to the same tools and boys often get help from different parents in building their cars, if they want it. That fosters ample competition and opportunities for achievement in my opinion. No boy is especially disadvantaged because Mom has no tools or woodworking skills. Boys who want sharper competition are invited to participate in the district Pinewood Derby which has a conventional competition and awards trophies. They are then free to polish up their cars to the fullest extent of the rules. So I specifically oppose the kind of competition you favor --- which I consider to be overproduced and too adult dominated for my taste. I maintain that's why "Down and Derby" memorializes the bad behavior too often cultivated by overly competitive events. But opinions differ --- your style of competition is very common in Cub Scouts. You are, of course, welcome to your methods. I offer my methods as a much simpler style that some might want to consider trying.

Winners and losers among Boy Scout age youth is fine --- desirable, really. But among Cub Scouts I think winner/loser competitions such as awarding trophies for top finishers is competition that is too sharp. It will predictably leave some very unhappy boys, often in tears. They just aren't ready for it. I like to make every boy a winner, just not every time. I did a Tiger Cub Den paper airplane contest a week ago. Parents helped their boy fold and decorate a paper airplane, some for the first time in their life. Then we had competitions for distance. All the Cub Scout launched their planes, and the boy whose plane went the farthest got a colorful sticker for their plane. Boys could pick another boy they wanted to fly against, and the winner of that competition got a sticker. We moved a table out and boys competed to see who could land their airplane on this "aircraft carrier," with any successful landing being recognized with a sticker. Most boys had 10-20 stickers on their airplanes by the time we were done. The competition was highly motivating for the boys, and they just loved getting stickers. I do much the same thing with the Pinewood Derby, Raingutter Regatta and so on --- usually I issue boys a Pinewood Derby Racing license they fill out, with boys deciding who they will race against and the winner of each heat getting a sticker. I encourage Cub Scouts to keep a scrap book of memorabilia from Cub Scouting --- their paper airplanes and Raingutter Regatta Racing Licenses, along with their Popcorn Sale certificate listing the dollar sales they had would be part of their scrapbook. That's my idea of age appropriate competition for Cub Scouts. You could count up the number of sticker to have place awards, but I don't do that. Boys who might be interested can count up stickers to decide if they are #1, which is fine, but making a big deal of that just isn't necessary at that age, in my experience.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Personally, if I were rushed I'd be inclined to delegate the SM Conference to a suitable AS, especially if the Scout in question wouldn't be very disappointed by that. It might be a good experience for an AS, too.

Wingnut--- That DOES sound tough!