scoutldr

As pointed out, there are no rules, so start your own tradition! Over the years, we have had British exchange Scouts on Camp staff. I always found it interesting at colors when they retrieve the Union Jack and fold it in thirds and roll it up like a sleeping bag. Not sure what their tradition is, but I guess it keeps it from getting wrinkled.

If the SM gave the word that participation was optional, then the Scouts did nothing wrong. The matter is for the Committee and CO to discuss with the SM. Since the unit is "owned" by the VFW, seems to me their wishes should be honored.

Short answer...no. YOu are a volunteer, and no one can force you to do anything. In fact, you should remain a volunteer only as long as the job continues to be fun and satisfying to you. My philosophy is that each potential den of 8 boys has 16 potential den leaders...it's the Committee and CM's job to find one to say yes. In my own situation, my sons are now 31 and 27, and I've served my time as DL, CM, SM, CC and District. When my nephews became of Cub age, the "family" said, "please be a Den Leader again, so Bobby can be in your Troop(sic)." My reply, "sorry, but I've done my part...Bobby's parents need to take their turn in the barrel". The result, nephews joined, but dropped out within a year...because the parents wouldn't participate. (The dads always had time to watch NASCAR and football on TV, though, while I was in the woods with other people's kids at the troop level.) Do I feel guilty? Not a bit. There are people who give what they can through volunteering...and there are people who do nothing but take advantage of us. I have little patience with the latter.

Agree with Amy and Eamonn. As a former CM, I was faced with this in a huge Pack. Rather than alienate and possibly lose the good DL I had, it was my job to form new Dens. Like Amy said, if parents won't step up and "help the Pack go", then the blame is on them...not the existing DL. 14 boys in a den is insane and should never happen. Just like I found having a Pack of 15 dens (and 4 Webelos dens) was insane, making Pack meetings a circus. We split the Pack and got back down to a manageable size. 20 years later, the spun-off Pack has split again and all units are still strong and active. That's how Scouting spreads.

Why don't they just read the Scouter.com forum? Who gets to go to the National Meeting? Is it open to any member who wishes to attend?

Just to correct a mis-statement in the other thread...I just refreshed my memory and the Adult Application states that all leaders must be 21 or older, EXCEPT...ASM, ACM, ADL, AWDL. (but I saw another place on scouting.org that stated AWDL must be 21) Perhaps a good reason to sign up GAS (I like that term), is to allow them to remain active in the OA providing cheerful service (if they are not Venturers). You can't belong to a Lodge if you're not a registered Scout(er). Another opportunity for service would be on the District Teams, such as Camping Promotion, Training, Advancement (EBOR), membership, FOS presenter, etc. (again, would have to be registered in a unit).

NO POGS??? That list must be about 20 years old! My son had those, and he's 31 now.

Note to Tom: Did anyone welcome you to the forum? If not, welcome. Meaning, stick around and contribute. You won't always get the answer you want, but you will always get an opinion. Take them for what they are...opinions, unless backed by a reference. I think your solution is the best one...quietly discuss with the SM and work for change. (where have I heard that before?) Here's an update on the school board issue: By Lauren Roth The Virginian-Pilot May 20, 2009 VIRGINIA BEACH A proposal that would allow middle school students to carry but not use cell phones in school spurred praise and criticism at a School Board meeting Tuesday night. "This policy recognizes the way technology is used in the family," said board member Bill Brunke, who has daughters in sixth grade and ninth grade. The changes would extend the division's high school policy to lower grades, allowing students to carry the phones for use before and after school. Phones have to be concealed and off during the school day. The phones are now banned in middle schools. "They all have them. That's why we want to change it," said Mardy Massey, assistant superintendent for middle schools. "I'm concerned about a policy that's driven by parents breaking the rule," board member Pat Edmonson said. Board member Sandra Smith-Jones questioned whether middle school students really need to have cell phones at all. Carolyn Weems, a board member with five children, including a middle school student, said she has worried about her daughter's safety after late activity bus runs. Middle schoolers are "staying after school for sports and being dropped off 1-1/2 miles from their homes in January in the dark," she said. Dominic Melito, president of the Virginia Beach Education Association and a former Kellam High School teacher, said teachers' voices need to be heard on the issue. "If the middle schools aren't having a problem with cell phones, this does open Pandora's box," he said. The repercussions for violations by middle school students would be slightly less severe than in high schools. Elementary students still would be banned from using or carrying cell phones. The policy change also would specify that students who carry cell phones in school are consenting to searches of the phone's contents when reasonable suspicion exists. The board plans to vote on the proposal June 2.

"But this violates my family's policy!!!" By Lauren Roth The Virginian-Pilot May 19, 2009 VIRGINIA BEACH Middle school students in the public schools are not allowed to carry or use cell phones. That could change if the board adopts a proposed policy change tonight. Under the proposed changes, middle school students would be allowed to use cell phones before and after school, which is the current policy for high school students. The repercussions for violations by middle schoolers would be slightly less severe than in high schools. Elementary students would still be banned from using or carrying cell phones. The policy change would also specify that students who carry cell phones in school are consenting to searches of the phones contents when reasonable suspicion exists. Times do change, said School Board chairman Dan Edwards, and many parents expect to be able to reach their middle school students on cell phones before and after school. The meeting will be held at 6:15 p.m. at the School Administration Building.

There aren't enough details for us to render an opinion, however our opinions don't matter. As others have pointed out, the CO is free to impose whatever additional criteria they want when selecting unit leaders, as long as they don't conflict with BSA membership criteria.

The term you are looking for is "de la Renta".

Apples and oranges, Ed. The BSA only bans things as a CYA maneuver.."risk management". They probably won't ban cellphones, because then the first time there's an incident and no cell phone was available, the BSA has deep pockets.

Thanks for refocusing us, Lisa. Those are exactly my fears and observations, too. I think this is manifested in the phenomenon we see now...what I call "failure to launch"...after the movie. Kids today are going into their 30's and even 40 without really having "left home" either figuratively or literally. And it's not all about the economy, either. I started my adult married life during the infamous Carter years, and seem to have survived. Kids today are getting older, but they aren't "maturing" in thought or ability. (I know it's generalizations, but that's what we're doing here.) They can't go to college and select courses or decide what to write about without texting mom. I work with a mom here who has her sophomore son e-mail her all his papers from college, whereupon she edits them and "fixes" them, so he doesn't get a bad grade. Sorry, but in my day, that was called "cheating". Another co-worker just picked out a new car (and did the negotiating) for his 27 year old to buy (I suspect he also gave him the money). That same co-worker is actively looking at houses for his 31 year old daughter to buy (for which he will supply the down payment and co-sign the loan). (Can you hear the thup, thup, thup of the helicopters in the background?). He also told me he just paid off her credit card, because he found out she was (get this) PAYING INTEREST! So now she can start all over with a clean slate. Sheesh. My favorite quote, "I don't think that 60 is the new 40...but I do think 20 is the new 10!" (sorry, no source)

We've been lectured many times by our Scout Executive (and rightly so) that NO ONE except him has the authority to enter into contracts or agreements that might obligate or incur liability for the Council or BSA. That includes accepting donations of cash or goods in the name of the Council or BSA. Tread carefully and don't sign ANYTHING without the expressed consent and approval of the SE and your Chartering Organization.

"I have seen that ratio waived when a unit is new, and adults from the unit were needed to attain 2-deep leadership at an induction weekend." Not sure I understand, John. If, by "induction weekend" you mean "Ordeal", that is not a unit function and the 2-deep rule should be met by the Chapter or Lodge. Am I missing something?

"After hearing what people in the audience had to say, the BSA added evacuation to that list. The Boy Scouts of America representatives say they have never faced opposition like this." Would have been nice if the reporter had been able to actually REPORT on what the opposition consisted of. Didn't take long for the reader comments to deteriorate into the GLBT thing, which I presume had nothing to do with the meeting.

As I said in the spunoff thread, I don't object to technology. I do object to allowing rude and/or thoughtless behavior (on the part of scouts OR parents) interfere with the program or inconvenience others. If our youth were being taught proper manners and consequences, we wouldn't be having this discussion. A Scout is Courteous. And kudos to tombitt and others for having a courteous discussion, even if, shall we say, a bit "spirited". We're all here for the same reason...for the good of the youth we serve. Feel free to use the Electronics Chip idea...it's not copyrighted...yet. ;-)

It's not about the phones. It's about manners. When did teaching proper manners cease to be a parental responsibility? Of course, they can't teach what they don't know. We've become a society of narcissists. I'll do what I want and to heck with everybody else. Sad. Really sad.

"I have decided as a parent to disregard the policy, and I've allowed my son to carry" Good thing we're not talking about handguns.;-) And how does that lesson fit in with the BSA mission to teach young people to "make ethical decisions over their lifetime"? If you don't agree with a law, you can just ignore it? I don't disagree that the SM's policy may be overkill...but he IS the SM. Hmmm...here's an idea...how about an "Electronics Chip" or "Cellphone Chip" (a la Totin Chip)...3 corners gone and you lose your Totin' privileges. Compromise!

Re-reading what I posted, and pondering what OGE said (we must be about the same vintage, Eagle '70)...perhaps it's not the cell phones, per se...perhaps my beef is with helicopter parents who give their kids everything they want without conditions, and can't cut the apron strings. I recently took my sister along on an out-of-state trip to visit aged relatives...I was ASTOUNDED at the number of times her cell phone rang on a 7 hour drive...21 yo college student daughter calling about every 30 minutes...(where's my keys, where's my English book, I'm stuck in traffic, I'm eating lunch now, what time does Dad get home, what should I have for supper, I'm going to work now...yada, yada, yada!) ... drove me berserk!!! My boys are both grown and gone, and I don't hear from them up to a week at a time (live in the same city, too!). I consider that NORMAL. Is it just me??? I HATE IT!

"He's quite independent, and we treat him very much like an adult. The question is why can't the scout leaders trust the kids?" Because your son is the exception, not the rule. Not all scouts are 14 year old Star Scouts behaving as responsible young adults, and the policy has to be fair and equitable. A few years ago at summer camp (75 miles from home), we were awakened at 1 am by the camp director who had a frantic parent on the phone poised to race to camp. Seems they had been out for the evening and when they got home, listened to an unintelligible series of grunts, static and partial sentences on the answering machine, but they did recognize it as their son. They tried to call him back, but he had it turned off to conserve battery. We woke up Scout, sleeping soundly, who said "No, I'm fine, I just called to say hello". Everyone at General Quarters in the middle of the night because of a #*&^#$#*$ cell phone!!! We, too, have lost homesick scouts due to cell phones. It used to be a payphone at the trading post, but they took that out (due to leader demand)...scouts were lined up every night after dinner, calling 1-800-COLLECT. Once they hear Mommy's voice, it's all over, and they either went home or cried themselves to sleep. And more than once, our SM got a "concerned" phone call from Mommy wanting to know why Billy was being mean to her little darling....first we heard of it. Quite frankly, when I am donating a week of vacation time in 100 degree heat, I don't need that crap from a helicopter parent. Your son may be responsible and courteous. Most are not. My own nieces and nephews show up at family gatherings and spend their time in the corner "texting" (or is it "tweeting" now ... sheesh) the whole time. At our last Eagle project, one scout was trying to assemble a picnic table with one hand and text with the other...a real safety hazard. And again this morning (as every morning), I was almost sideswiped by someone trying to operate a cell phone and a 3,000 pound weapon at the same time. Unlike you, MOST parents are not teaching responsibility, manners and common sense, so they ruin it for everyone else. Welcome to life. Sorry for the venting.

OK, I believe you. Unless he wants to find a new unit, his only recourse is to politely request a signature on his Eagle Leadership Project plan. If the SM refuses, request the reasons in writing. In the meantime, finish his merit badge and POR (making sure he does a good job with it, not just wearing the patch). Then file a written appeal with the Council Advancement Chair (since the SM is also the District AC), cc the Scout Executive. The fact that there are other, older Life scouts in the "chow line" ahead of him is irrelevant and has nothing to do with your son's advancement. Advancement is not a team sport.

Hello, Mojo and welcome to our campfire. Sorry your son is experiencing this. We have just gone through this with another forum member whose son appealed to District and is awaiting a District level EBOR. I think the idea of finding a Venturing Crew is a good one...in a different District, if possible (you can join any unit that will have you - regardless of location). Your son can earn Eagle in a Crew, which is what I did back in the dark ages (called Explorer Post back then). I suggest a different District, because that way he gets a different DAC as well. Most venturing crews are high adventure, and you son may have a better time there anyway. Sounds like he has been black-balled for some reason. Have you and your son done some honest reflection to sort out why? If it's purely an age thing, then the SM is wrong and should not be holding him back. But there is a "SCout Spirit" requirement that is purely subjective. If that's a problem, it should have been addressed at his Star and Life BOR though...not wait until he's ready for Eagle signatures, then lower the boom on him. That's not fair. Our problem from this side of the forum is we only get one side of the story. I can't imagine why an "otherwise well-respected nice guy" would single out a scout for bullying. While I'm not doubting your honesty, a parent is not usually totally objective. You understand. Good luck and keep us informed.

All this talk about Exploring got me to searching for some historical clip art ...the old Exploring "circle V" logo from the 1970's. (not the "Big E") Can anyone shoot me a link? (most of the clipart links on scouter.com don't work)

Inside every Orkin Man is a potential Insect Study MB counselor! You missed an opportunity!