scoutldr

Thanks, Beav. But I was referring to the version put out by National to us common folk... Active = Registered. If they are not meeting the SM's definition of Scout Spirit by way of "actively serving", then WHY keep them on the roster? We pass them up the ranks, then wait for them to submit their Eagle app, then slam-dunk 'em? Sorry, but that stinks.

What the Merck manual says is irrelevant. The BSA has defined "adult" as age 18 or over for the Boy Scout program. And adult leaders have a prescribed uniform which does not include youth rank badges. NOw if the BSA changed the rule, I would be more than happy to sew the Eagle patch (that I never got to wear as an Explorer) on my left pocket. But until that day, I will wear the knot and expect all other "adults" to suck it up and do the same. I gotta wonder what other "absurd" BSA policies we encourage our Scouts to ignore if they don't agree with them....is that the example we want to provide?

It was just trying to lead you to God's country!

Jet is correct. In my experience, most Scouts get this signed off when they complete their swim check at summer camp, although it can be completed any time. Once the SM sees the buddy tag, it's signed.

Not to sound snippy, but how does this help the 99% of BSA members who WON'T be able to go to Jambo? And how much is their appearance fee? (call me cynical...) I believe it's Guy Fieri...I've never heard of Torres and Bayless...and I'm a Food Network junkie....and a Foodie! Now if Giada or Rachael were showing up...

Pardon me if I misunderstood, but I thought National had defined "active" for us. Not to everyone's liking, but defined nonetheless. So the only "subjectivity" left in the equation to me is the "Scout Spirit" requirement, and mdsummer assured us there were no huge skeletons in the closet. I have seen "SS" interpreted widely and it would have to be something pretty egregious, if not felonious, to preclude a Scout from even sitting for an EBOR. Missing meetings and outings doesn't rise to the level of seriousness that I would expect. So, either this SM is one of the movers and shakers (and deep FOS pockets) of the Council, or, as others have suggested, we don't have the whole picture. Only the Scout and the SM know the real deal here.

As pointed out, there are no rules, so start your own tradition! Over the years, we have had British exchange Scouts on Camp staff. I always found it interesting at colors when they retrieve the Union Jack and fold it in thirds and roll it up like a sleeping bag. Not sure what their tradition is, but I guess it keeps it from getting wrinkled.

If the SM gave the word that participation was optional, then the Scouts did nothing wrong. The matter is for the Committee and CO to discuss with the SM. Since the unit is "owned" by the VFW, seems to me their wishes should be honored.

Short answer...no. YOu are a volunteer, and no one can force you to do anything. In fact, you should remain a volunteer only as long as the job continues to be fun and satisfying to you. My philosophy is that each potential den of 8 boys has 16 potential den leaders...it's the Committee and CM's job to find one to say yes. In my own situation, my sons are now 31 and 27, and I've served my time as DL, CM, SM, CC and District. When my nephews became of Cub age, the "family" said, "please be a Den Leader again, so Bobby can be in your Troop(sic)." My reply, "sorry, but I've done my part...Bobby's parents need to take their turn in the barrel". The result, nephews joined, but dropped out within a year...because the parents wouldn't participate. (The dads always had time to watch NASCAR and football on TV, though, while I was in the woods with other people's kids at the troop level.) Do I feel guilty? Not a bit. There are people who give what they can through volunteering...and there are people who do nothing but take advantage of us. I have little patience with the latter.

Agree with Amy and Eamonn. As a former CM, I was faced with this in a huge Pack. Rather than alienate and possibly lose the good DL I had, it was my job to form new Dens. Like Amy said, if parents won't step up and "help the Pack go", then the blame is on them...not the existing DL. 14 boys in a den is insane and should never happen. Just like I found having a Pack of 15 dens (and 4 Webelos dens) was insane, making Pack meetings a circus. We split the Pack and got back down to a manageable size. 20 years later, the spun-off Pack has split again and all units are still strong and active. That's how Scouting spreads.

Why don't they just read the Scouter.com forum? Who gets to go to the National Meeting? Is it open to any member who wishes to attend?

Just to correct a mis-statement in the other thread...I just refreshed my memory and the Adult Application states that all leaders must be 21 or older, EXCEPT...ASM, ACM, ADL, AWDL. (but I saw another place on scouting.org that stated AWDL must be 21) Perhaps a good reason to sign up GAS (I like that term), is to allow them to remain active in the OA providing cheerful service (if they are not Venturers). You can't belong to a Lodge if you're not a registered Scout(er). Another opportunity for service would be on the District Teams, such as Camping Promotion, Training, Advancement (EBOR), membership, FOS presenter, etc. (again, would have to be registered in a unit).

NO POGS??? That list must be about 20 years old! My son had those, and he's 31 now.

Note to Tom: Did anyone welcome you to the forum? If not, welcome. Meaning, stick around and contribute. You won't always get the answer you want, but you will always get an opinion. Take them for what they are...opinions, unless backed by a reference. I think your solution is the best one...quietly discuss with the SM and work for change. (where have I heard that before?) Here's an update on the school board issue: By Lauren Roth The Virginian-Pilot May 20, 2009 VIRGINIA BEACH A proposal that would allow middle school students to carry but not use cell phones in school spurred praise and criticism at a School Board meeting Tuesday night. "This policy recognizes the way technology is used in the family," said board member Bill Brunke, who has daughters in sixth grade and ninth grade. The changes would extend the division's high school policy to lower grades, allowing students to carry the phones for use before and after school. Phones have to be concealed and off during the school day. The phones are now banned in middle schools. "They all have them. That's why we want to change it," said Mardy Massey, assistant superintendent for middle schools. "I'm concerned about a policy that's driven by parents breaking the rule," board member Pat Edmonson said. Board member Sandra Smith-Jones questioned whether middle school students really need to have cell phones at all. Carolyn Weems, a board member with five children, including a middle school student, said she has worried about her daughter's safety after late activity bus runs. Middle schoolers are "staying after school for sports and being dropped off 1-1/2 miles from their homes in January in the dark," she said. Dominic Melito, president of the Virginia Beach Education Association and a former Kellam High School teacher, said teachers' voices need to be heard on the issue. "If the middle schools aren't having a problem with cell phones, this does open Pandora's box," he said. The repercussions for violations by middle school students would be slightly less severe than in high schools. Elementary students still would be banned from using or carrying cell phones. The policy change also would specify that students who carry cell phones in school are consenting to searches of the phone's contents when reasonable suspicion exists. The board plans to vote on the proposal June 2.

"But this violates my family's policy!!!" By Lauren Roth The Virginian-Pilot May 19, 2009 VIRGINIA BEACH Middle school students in the public schools are not allowed to carry or use cell phones. That could change if the board adopts a proposed policy change tonight. Under the proposed changes, middle school students would be allowed to use cell phones before and after school, which is the current policy for high school students. The repercussions for violations by middle schoolers would be slightly less severe than in high schools. Elementary students would still be banned from using or carrying cell phones. The policy change would also specify that students who carry cell phones in school are consenting to searches of the phones contents when reasonable suspicion exists. Times do change, said School Board chairman Dan Edwards, and many parents expect to be able to reach their middle school students on cell phones before and after school. The meeting will be held at 6:15 p.m. at the School Administration Building.

There aren't enough details for us to render an opinion, however our opinions don't matter. As others have pointed out, the CO is free to impose whatever additional criteria they want when selecting unit leaders, as long as they don't conflict with BSA membership criteria.

The term you are looking for is "de la Renta".

Apples and oranges, Ed. The BSA only bans things as a CYA maneuver.."risk management". They probably won't ban cellphones, because then the first time there's an incident and no cell phone was available, the BSA has deep pockets.

Thanks for refocusing us, Lisa. Those are exactly my fears and observations, too. I think this is manifested in the phenomenon we see now...what I call "failure to launch"...after the movie. Kids today are going into their 30's and even 40 without really having "left home" either figuratively or literally. And it's not all about the economy, either. I started my adult married life during the infamous Carter years, and seem to have survived. Kids today are getting older, but they aren't "maturing" in thought or ability. (I know it's generalizations, but that's what we're doing here.) They can't go to college and select courses or decide what to write about without texting mom. I work with a mom here who has her sophomore son e-mail her all his papers from college, whereupon she edits them and "fixes" them, so he doesn't get a bad grade. Sorry, but in my day, that was called "cheating". Another co-worker just picked out a new car (and did the negotiating) for his 27 year old to buy (I suspect he also gave him the money). That same co-worker is actively looking at houses for his 31 year old daughter to buy (for which he will supply the down payment and co-sign the loan). (Can you hear the thup, thup, thup of the helicopters in the background?). He also told me he just paid off her credit card, because he found out she was (get this) PAYING INTEREST! So now she can start all over with a clean slate. Sheesh. My favorite quote, "I don't think that 60 is the new 40...but I do think 20 is the new 10!" (sorry, no source)

We've been lectured many times by our Scout Executive (and rightly so) that NO ONE except him has the authority to enter into contracts or agreements that might obligate or incur liability for the Council or BSA. That includes accepting donations of cash or goods in the name of the Council or BSA. Tread carefully and don't sign ANYTHING without the expressed consent and approval of the SE and your Chartering Organization.

"I have seen that ratio waived when a unit is new, and adults from the unit were needed to attain 2-deep leadership at an induction weekend." Not sure I understand, John. If, by "induction weekend" you mean "Ordeal", that is not a unit function and the 2-deep rule should be met by the Chapter or Lodge. Am I missing something?

"After hearing what people in the audience had to say, the BSA added evacuation to that list. The Boy Scouts of America representatives say they have never faced opposition like this." Would have been nice if the reporter had been able to actually REPORT on what the opposition consisted of. Didn't take long for the reader comments to deteriorate into the GLBT thing, which I presume had nothing to do with the meeting.

As I said in the spunoff thread, I don't object to technology. I do object to allowing rude and/or thoughtless behavior (on the part of scouts OR parents) interfere with the program or inconvenience others. If our youth were being taught proper manners and consequences, we wouldn't be having this discussion. A Scout is Courteous. And kudos to tombitt and others for having a courteous discussion, even if, shall we say, a bit "spirited". We're all here for the same reason...for the good of the youth we serve. Feel free to use the Electronics Chip idea...it's not copyrighted...yet. ;-)

It's not about the phones. It's about manners. When did teaching proper manners cease to be a parental responsibility? Of course, they can't teach what they don't know. We've become a society of narcissists. I'll do what I want and to heck with everybody else. Sad. Really sad.

"I have decided as a parent to disregard the policy, and I've allowed my son to carry" Good thing we're not talking about handguns.;-) And how does that lesson fit in with the BSA mission to teach young people to "make ethical decisions over their lifetime"? If you don't agree with a law, you can just ignore it? I don't disagree that the SM's policy may be overkill...but he IS the SM. Hmmm...here's an idea...how about an "Electronics Chip" or "Cellphone Chip" (a la Totin Chip)...3 corners gone and you lose your Totin' privileges. Compromise!