Scoutfish

I stepped up and became an ADL this year. Due to unplanned surgery for cancer ( it's all gone now), I pretty much missed out on all the fall leader training offered by our council. So that means I only have internet training so far. Well, just around the corner, I will be taking BALOO, Leader specific and, New Leader Essentials very soon. So here is my question concerning Leader Specific Training: 1) Since I plan on being a leader next year instead of an ADL, should I take a leader instead of Asst leader? Is there even a difference or is it just "Leaders" in general for Cub Scouts? 2)If there is a difference between leader and Asst leader, would it be wiser to take leader - as to be sure If I was leader trained, I should easily handle being an ADL this year and also save time taking a class again next year? Or do I stick to my current position? I only ask since training starts after the "new" scouting year does. I'd be a leader before the training took place. Again, that's assuming there's different training. 3) Am I over complicating and over thinking the whole situation?(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

the heff; "What are we afraid of, or afraid of missing out on that we have to carry our cell phones at all times, even in the backcountry?" WEll, I can't speak for anybody else, but I would be afriad of missing out on being able to call Rescue/EMS if the situation arised. Granted, technology isn't always for the better, especially when trying to get closer to nature, but I strongly believe that scouts would have carried cell phone - FOR EMERGENCY USE - had the technology been around. It's too easy to say they didn't use them, especially when such a thing had not been invented yet.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

If I understand you right..you already know all the leave no trace stuff...you just can't get it through the scouts thick skulls! Okay, similar type of situation, but completely different event. I tried the video game approach: I asked the kids if they ever played a game where their guy has to get shot multiple times. Instead of dying on the first shot, thie guy loses strenght. The more strenght the guy loses, the worse he fights until ultimately, he dies. GAME OVER! So change it to your specific details: So every time you walk off the path and break a tree, bush, cave in a part of a creek embankment , etc, the environment loses some strength. Now the environment isn't as strong as it was and has a harder time coping. Keep doing things to weaken the evironment, and the environment, the animals and us lose! Except we can't restart the game! You'd be amazed at all the wide eyes and "We didn't know!" looks I get. Then you watch the (Cub) Scouts act extra carefull!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

LOL! See? This is what I'm talking about. I'm willing to bet that there is not, in any print, a specific rule that says " You can not add uniforms as a requiremnt to passing EBOR. But I bet there is a rule saying that while you cannot lessen/weaken rquirements that BSA set, in some instances you can. Being a newbie...I have no freakin idea! Sherminator...this- again- is exactly why this should continue: Because so many things are up for interpretation. And listening to what others know,went through, etc...may help us newer guys out and keep a non issue from becoming an issue!

Sherminator...I have an answer for you! "What I would like to know is, why do we discuss minute points such as this and not the climate that creates situations like this." I'm fairly new to this. Last scout year, I was just a active parent. This year, I am an assistant Den Leader to a Bear Den. Anything Eagle or Boy Scouts is still outside my knowledge due to my little experience. So here is why ( in my opinion) we need and should continue to discuss These "minute points". I didn't know this. I never had to worry about it. One day, when my son hopefully goes to his EBOR, I probably wouldn't know either unless I was on the EBOR board. AS a den leader ( I plan to continue this route when my son goes to Boy Scouts) I probably won't have any interaction with the EBOR other than when my son goes before it ( meaning what he tells me about it). Now, suppose there were EBOR all across this nation that had the same requirment. Of all the Scouts who's parents are not part of leadership or committee...how would they know? WEll, with "Minute discussions " like this, we all get to find out. Maybe my son tells me one day, that he has an issue with the EBOR because he didn't wear his uniform. I would at least have an idea or venue to give him to pursue. Maybe one of the parents in my den has an older child having the same EBOR issues? Maybe for reasons I cannot imagine, a Den Leader wants to hold Webelos from crossover because of a uniform issue. I could tell them that uniform requirements are not legit. What it boils down to is this: There may be many of you who have years and years of experience under your belts and can probably name off BSA rules and requirements as easy as the alphabet. But there are also new volunteers, leaders and committee folks starting out for the first time every single day. We don't have that vast knowledge or experience. Maybe our pack/troop advancement person mistakenly thinks this is okay too. Who would know otherwise? This is great insight and knowledge to us. Maybe one day , instead of another EBOR or two or twelve or 30 going through this same mess, maybe we can avoid it!

Yesterday was my son's birthday. He just turned 9. Yeah, it messes with the advancement and school year. Anyways, he received a particular Nerf Gun from my mom as a gift. As soon as he opened the wrapping paper, I recognized it as one that a friend also gave him just a few weeks ago as a Christmas present. Now, I was just waiting for my son to say : "I have this one already!" Yes, we have went over this thing beofre with my son, but ...well. you knopw how kids are. So leter in the day, I was explaining to him how proud I was that he tghought of his grandmother's feeling and didn't say he already had that gun. I told him it was a sign of becoming more mature. I really expected himto say something along the lines of "Well,you and mom taught me well." or something like that. NOPE! He looked at me and tells me : "Dad, that's the kind of thing a Cub Scout does!" So, wether or not it answers your question...you tell me. But I felt it was a great example of living/ heeding the fundamentals of Scouting! Because it sure wasn't me or his mom he was listening to! LOL!

Yesterday was my son's birthday. He just turned 9. Yeah, it messes with the advancement and school year. Anyways, he received a particular Nefr Gun from my mom as a gift. As soon as he opened the wrapping paper, I recognized it as one that a friend also gave him just a few weeks ago as a Christmas present. Now, I was just waiting for my son to say : "I have this one already!" Yes, we have went over this thing beofre with my son, but ...well. you knopw how kids are. So leter in the day, I was explaining to him how proud I was that he tghought of his grandmother's feeling and didn't say he already had that gun. I told him it was a sign of becoming more mature. I really expected himto say something along the lines of "Well,you and mom taught me well." or something like that. NOPE! He looked at me and tells me : "Dad, that's the kind of thing a Cub Scout does!" So, wether or not it answers your question...you tell me. But I felt it was a great example of living/ heeding the fundamentals of Scouting! Because it sure wasn't me or his mom he was listening to! LOL!

Incidentally, I do not know how the aquisition of badges, beltloops, pins, aroow points , etc are specifically handled. All the leaders have until the Weds. before the Monday night pack meet to turn in all advancements and such to the pack registrar. I can only assume that she is the one who gets the badges, belt loops, etc and what not. Maybe not, maybe the individual leaders go. Maybe it's the cubmaster. I do know that leaders show up 15 mins earlir than normal on pack nights to straighten out paperwork and to get the badges. THis process does not involve me, so I do not know what,if any paperwork is involved at the scout shop.My only involvement would be to assist my den leader if need be. So far, it hasn't been needed. Last year, I was nothing more than a "more active than most" parent..Any rules, laws and such about what could be handled at what type of event were outside my knowledge, and quite frankly, really weren't my concern! As a parent, it was my job to work with my son, and to trust that my pack knew what they were doing..........Unless anybody thinks that each and every parent should individually question every single thing the pack, it's leaders and committee do? But then there would be no time for the scouts.....just answers!

bear dad, I know you didn't have an issue with it, just clarifyingm because I don't want you to make a mistake . Scoutnut; Circles? You called me out on the BB gfun thing. I only answered you. If it's a circle, you started it, not me - I only responded. As far as den Vs pack...As I said in other posts, A campout on the den level is not allowed,sncationed or will a certificate of liability be written. Per BSA G2SS. A den itseklf can not have a campout. Not my rule, BSA's rule! As far as merit badges, pins and what not, it was explained to us by our Council that since you have an illegal campout ( or whatever you want to call it) all the activities are in question and void. Again, not my rule. I'd prefer to be able to camp on a Den level. Again, would I take the pins? NO! I said so at least twice, But I'd hate Distric or council to catch wind of it haoppeneing...especially if they thougyt it was pre planned knowing it was not allowed. Again,I said that too. I may only have two years into this scouting thing, but I can't imagine Council or District or even the CO for that matter will just ignore it. Otherwise, what would they do to prevent further instances from repeating?

5/ SOMETHING ELSE You are citing and enforcing the rules. The rule are pretty much known in a general way: You have to pay for what you sold, but could be cited more specifically too: "You signed up to sell, you madea verbal/ written agreemnet, and now we need you to honor the obligation you agreed to." But in your specific question, I say : 5/ Something else becuase I can compare your actuions to a cop: Suppose I'm blocking a raod and just decide not to move my truck. You as a cop come up and tell me to move. I ask why I should. You say because it's the law and name off a General Statues number whatever. You didn't passthe buck.You didn't place blame on anybody else. You just said ( in a nutshell) I'm enforcing the law and this is what that law says. You maye say Council is getting on your back, and they will soonif you don't do something about the popcorn or money. But at this point in the game, I think the parents might rather hear that the council is getting on your back than have officer friendly give them a visit!

Scoutnut and Beardad; Basically, it comes down to this: We screwed up. We erred. We messed up. WE goofed. We made a mistake. So far, we were lucky because nobody handed us our behinds for it. In my mind ( and I speak for nobody else in my pack) I'm especially glad I did not have to ask any kids, or explain to any parents why the loops were no good or have to ask for them back. The parents might not have been thrilled, but most of them would have understod. The Cubs? They would have been devasatated! That's not why I ,you, or anybody else does this. So to recap: WE screwed up. The kids and parents didn't. We didn't plan on doing anything against the rules..it just turns out we did. We should have know better, but we didn't...BUT NOW WE DO! WE will not do it again...at least not intentionally or being aware before hand!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

"Your Pack ran BB and Archery belt loops at your Pack campout even though it was against BSA" Yep! Admittidly, it was a stupid oversite on our part when it came to the difference between Council SANCTIONED pack campouts and Council HELD campouts. We did not discover the error of our ways until about a 3 weeks ago. The campout was last fall( Sept 09) . As a father and as a new (this year) ADL, I could not ask a Cub...after all that time has passed... to give up a beltloop. BUt, you can bet I will not plan or intentionally do it again. I will not hold a campout on the den level and work on pins, beltloops or what not and try to pass them off as "at home" completed electives. I have no problem planning a pack campout ( with all forms filled out) and going.... even of only my den ended up going. I'd stil have the activities , and still pas out pins/beltloops/ badges to those that earned them. Why? Becaue it was a PACK campout! A pack campout is a pack campout based on who can/was told/invited to go..not who showed up. A den campout is for a den only and not allowed. The difference should be ( at least to BSA and CO) the intentions and what was planned from the start., not a mistake ..even a stupid "we should have known better mistake". (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Keep in mind though, you will have to do something! If the parents aren't coming off with the $$ and no popcorn either - ANd if the scouts keep going like normal...then what's the motive for the parents? Know what i mean? If you just let it go, you will have to decide how many times you let it go as it will hapen again. If the two families in question are under hard times, try to work with them about maybe a payment schedual - but again, you still need that money or popcorn, or else the next time somebody has financial issues, it could happen again without a second thought!

I have no ifdea ( at the moment) as what to say in the way of advice except this: Did they signfor that popcorn? Do you have a sign off for parents who get popcorn? Our pack has two options: 1) Sell popcorn, then pack orders apropriate amount based on what you sold. Then you pick up and SIGN for that popcorn. 2) Instead of selling, you have a $20.00 opt out. If you do not have a sign for sheet, I'd get onein the future for just this reason. Then you at least have a signature of somebody saying that they are responsible for either the popcorn or the money. But in a different light..If parents do not pay for any other afterschool programs, camps, or whatever, it's always the kid ythat gets punished. It sure sucks, but then,the parents have to explain to Jr why he is left out . Or at the least, Jr can attend pack/ den meetings, but just doesb'r advance or recieve awards, ribbons, pins, badges , or anything that costs the pack money. No camps, or PWD either. Biggest thing I'd do though is draw you up some sign off slips. For some reason I cannot think of what you call them. Requisitions? Waviers? Recepts?

Stosh, around 16 years ago, I bout a pre ban SKS56. Kinda like an AK-47, but the barrel was maybe 3 " longer and no pistol grip. It was a semi-auto too. I guess it was a pre AK-47 or just the Chinese version. It shot 7.62X39 ammo. I bought two 30 rd clips to go with it too. Accurate to the metric version of a mile. Not that I could site that far. Anyway, myself and 2 friends bought oneat the same time. Came in the original packlaging with original acessories. All covered in grease. Came witha bayonet too. Kinda had a cross or plus shapre if you looked at it head on. Well, I bought that gun at Rose's department store. 3 months later another frind bought one also. He was mad though. Seems somebody at Rose's Corporate decided that the bayonets were just too dangerous. Somebody might get stabbed or get their eye poked out! So what did they do? The took the bayonets off, and kept selling the guns! Seriously? The bayonet? This is a freaking high powered semi automatic war rifle. ... I can outrun a bayonet, but not the bullet!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

What, in YOUR OPINION , is the coolest thing about scouting? Or maybe, what was the coolest thing that happened to you during scouting? I haven't been scouting that long by many of your standards ( now in my 2nd year), so what I choose right now may be overshadowed in the future. Last year, before becoming an ADL, I volunteered to help assit the BB Gun training ( Oh we found out soooo much since then! ) . I helped boys who never held a BB gun, much less shot one, learn about gun safety, how to aim, pull the trigger and shoot the gun. Now, some of the Tigers were pretty small boys. And timid too.And lacking confidence. After going through the whole saftey and instruction routine, I'd assit with scouts individually, as did the other assitants. One scout inparticular was having a little more difficulty than the rest. He was even more lacking in confidence and was shaking pretty badly. I had him lay down and shoot. He shot and says " SEE! I suck at everything!" One we cleared the range and secured all rifles, I as well as the other asst's went to get the targets . My scout missed all 5 of his shots. ( did I meantion we had volleys of 5 shots?) Well, I had a spiral shank deck nail in my pocket. With my back to the cub, I poked 1 hole in the 7 - 8 point area of the target. I then walked over and showed the scout. Boy did that scout change his disposition. He was smiling from ear to ear. He then gave me a high five and then a hug! This was not the last scout I got a high five from. Pretty soon, all 4 of us working the BB gun range had a nail in our pocket! Later, after all the scouts had taken their turns, and we had a bit of time to kill, that same scout asked me if he could shoot again. So I said sure and worked with him again. This time though, he shot the target on his own all 5 times, and came withing a 1/16 of hitting the bull'seye. All that scout needed was some confindence. Once he thought he was able to do something.... he really was able! Yeah, It may sound hokey to some of you, but so far, that was my cooest scout moment. That is what made me decide to be a ADL and next year a DL. So? What was/is your coolest scouting moment or experience so far?

Well, I didn't mean THAT kind of slap in the face.. I meant "an eye opener". Well, I meant it in a good way.

Thanks everybody! I really do appreciate your answers. Like I said, I have no plans or intentions of doing that except at home. I was just curious about wether it would be okay at a pack or den meet. Personally, I wouldn't do it myself in the den/pack setting because as I stated...the way parents are these days, one would insist that HIS child spray the spray and probably over do it at that pernts insistance, then blame' sue me when it went bad.

Actually, what Isaid was: "The key is in the event. If a whole pack is invited and they don't go...that's their loss. But if the den only plans it..... it's a no no! BUT....If all the parents of a particular den, just happen to decide to go camping...well. it's in the finer details. They can go, but it can't be recorded as a den campout nor can anybody get any awards, pins, or loops or anything of that nature! " According to G2SS and BSA - you can not hold a campout on the den level. If you do, it's not a BSA council.district or sanctioned event. But if you do it on the family level, it's not a den event anyways. I'm just saying, you go camping as a den. Somebody at district or council hears about it.They get upset and bring it to the attention of the COR or CO . Somebody says something inflammatory.Then sombody else gets mad! You might end up not camping any where any more except as a family. And you might have somebody questioning every beltloop, pin, badge or award given out from then on too. Personally, I wish den events were allowed. I think it would be more of a tight knit, "we are a group" type of event. Brings everybody closer and shows them the value of working together a bit better. It would be cheaper and you'd probably have more options to find campsites as you are looking for space to handle between 8 to maybe 15 families instead of the 150 to 200 of the pack. Old farmer Brown might allow 12 families to camp in his back pasture by the lake, but hold reservatuions about 150 families camping in the same spot. (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Lisa...OUCH!!!! What a slap in the face! But you are right. I'm about to become one of those very parents that I do not like! I started confusing guidance for him - with choosing for him. I almost got scared that he might ( God forbid) make a mistake . A mistake that will teach him more than I could, by trying to "assist" him too much.. Thanks! Yeah,I guess everybody else pretty much said the same th8ing, you just didn't hold back! Thanks. I really needed that!

We have a bear cub who unfortunatly, lost his mom and da a few years ago. He lives with his grandmother and grandfather. Well, they are not too keen on sleeping in a tent, so they letthe boy travel attend the pack/family campout with the cubmaster ( who is also a family friend) . The boy participated in all day time events like normal, but slept in his own tent which just happened to be set up within a few feet of the Cubmaster's tent. So far as I can tell, everything went off without a hitch. Biggest factor ( aside from permission slips) might be how brave that scout is sleeping all by himself in a tent. I suppose you could take one under your wing and let him sleep in atent with your son, seperate fromyou that is. The worse thing I see is few scouts staying up too late and being especially grouchy/ sleepy in the morning. LOL!

Okay, stupid question time. We know that artillery and cannons are not allowed. Can't say I blame BSA for that. With a big amount of "but it's not my fault, I'm gonna sue" parents and an over proliferation of "There is no such thing as accidents so I HAVE to sue" people in our world, it doesn't matter how careful you or I may be. What about potato guns? Is this a technical thing or just a basic thing? Technically, A potato gun used a potato, not an encased shell with powder. A potatoe accidentally dropped in a fire will not explode like a artillery shell. There is no black powder ( or whatever type is used now) involved. But on the basic level..it shoots out of a barrel with explosive force. Wether it's hair spray, WD-40 or whatever, it's a flammible substance that is pressureized and has a directional discharge. NO! I do not have any plans or thoughts at this time of using a potato gun. But in a year or two, I thought my son and I might make one at home. Just wondering if this would be an okay thing, a BAD thing, or a VERY, VERY BAD thing to do at a den/pack level. And by that I also mean is it allowed? Would a potato gun fall under a rifle or artillery catagory?(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Twocubdad, Only CERTAIN pins,loops, and badges. We had a BB Gun and Archery class set up at our Fall pack family campout. I helped with BB Guns. Went through the history of the BB Gun and taught safety procedures, set up safety perimiters and used Daisy Red Rider single pump "spring/air" rifles (read least powerful) air rifles. Turns out that you cannot teach that ( meaning BB gun & Archery) stuff at family campouts/ pack campouts. That is not to say you cannot teach other pin/loop/ badge classes on the pack/family level - just not BB gun or archery. Incidentally, we found out several months after the fact. We did not, nor will we take the loops back as we are not going to puinish the kids for our lack of following procedure But at our pack spring campout.... we will teach something else. Maybe hatchet throwing! LOL! JUst kidding!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

scouthut ; I believe we are completely on the same page. I mentioned in my original post that each kid would be different and that there was no correct answer. The biggest thing I was trying to do wsa save a bit of time. If I got 35 posts listings for ...........let's say space as a elective that all the boys loved, but not a single prop towards rock collecting' Then I would try spacefirst. Granted, my son may hate space and want to collect rocks ( He sure loves to throw them in my yard!), but at least I had a start instead of randomly starting anywhere. Now,it's not that I won't let him choose on his own, but rather - well, we are talking a 8 year old here. When we go on our 3 mile dog walk, ne always wants to go farther. Yet after we have turned around after no going farther, he usually complains about half way home about being too tired to make it home! Good thing I didn't just do what he said about wanting to go further, Same thing about that second big helping of spaghetti. He swears he really is that hungry, but never does finish more than 1 or 2 more bites. I do want him too choose what he is truely intersested in or thinks he might possibly be interested in. But I also want to help guide him. So anyway, I get what your saying, and agree completely up to the point of knowing my own son's personality . I just want to narrow the choices down based on similar experiences parents had with their boys. Lust like the rocket thing..so far, none of her boys have hated it. I'm gonn atake the chance mine will love it too. I may be wrong, but it gives me somewhere to start.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

TrainerLady, the difference is in the words you use: "In my pack it has always been only my den that camps. The trip is open to everyone and everyone is highly encourages to come. " Our pack family camps too. It is a FAMILY trip. If only my den showed up on that FAMILY campout, it is still a FAMILY campout. If only one den doesn't go, it doesn't me we excluded them,it means they made the choice. The key is in the event. If a whole pack is invited and the don't go...that's their loss. But if the den only plans it..... it's a no no! BUT....If all the parents of a particular den, just happen to decide to go camping...well. it's in the finer details. They can go, but it can't be recorded as a den campout nor can anybody get ant awards, pins, or loops or anything of that nature! Again, it's all about wording and asking. PLan a pack campout. Tell the whole pack. You don't have to twist their arms to get them to go. And if they don't...they just missed out on a fun pack oppertunity. But that's their problem and not yours! On a side note... I commend both of you for not letting an entire pack suck the life and fun out of what your den could be doing!