Scoutfish

I think HiLo is absolutely right! Polls MIGHT just give a vague trend, but it depends on what and how you ask. If you poll 100 scouts, you MIGHT get 100 answers, or you may get 55 random answers and 45 answers identicle other than their specific individual wording. Matter of fact, look at this post itself: Count each individual person who replied or commented. Did every single one of them give a completely different answer? Or would you call it a trend? But I have to ask ( and I mean all respect okay?) How do you determine what is a trend and what is an actual issue or problem? How do you determine that? Suppose right now, the biggest reason Boy Scouts drop out by ninth grade is that bewtween school sports and academics,they just are too worn out for scouting. Would you call that a "trend" or say that it is a very legit and valid answer because the National educational trend is that schools and teachers give more homework. My 3rd grade son has just as much homework as I did ( pro rating that is) in high school! That is indeed a trend, but also a trend that is gonna stay. 100 years ago, not many people went to college, But the trend today is more than not do. 100 years ago, not many women worked professionally outside the home. The trend today is that way more do than not!That trend is not going anywhere either. I'm thinking that when you say trend, you are thinking fad. Point is, your questions can't steer a responce, but can't be vague either. Ask 10 people why they left scouting, and the answers might not tell you much. Ask 100,000 why they left scouting and I think you will get a pretty darn clear picture!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Shoot,I did it again. My bad! I didn't mean any elective itself is useless, just saying if it'sone my son can't do, or is something he won't grasp the concept of or remember 5 minutes after I sign the check-off....well, I'd rather spent that time doing one that he could remember the finer points of at least next month if not next year or 5 years from now.

Okay, I'm gonna go on a completely different angle here: I think everybody is making this way too over complicated! I would have three seperate polls consisting of two questions each. POLL #1 -For Active Scouts Question 1) Name one thing that almost made you want to quit scouting. Question 2) What is the biggest thing that kept you in scouting? POLL #2 -For Former Scouts Question #1) What was the reason you left scouting? Question #2) What could have been done ( if anything) to keep you in scouts? POLL #3 -For Non Scouts Question #1) What is there about Scouting that appeals to you? Question #2) What is it about Scouting that turn you away? Now, those 3 polls are simple and leave it to the scouts to fill in as they see fit. You can find out why youth have stayed away from Scouts, Why they quit Scouts or why they are still here. Knowing you can't please 100 % of the people 100% of the time.. You go for the biggest numbers OR you recognize the need in certain areas to have different kinds of pack/troop programs. I suppose , that if you feel the need, you can have additional polls based towards each particular group based on what answers you got from the 3 original polls. But in the broader scheme of things, I believe those 3 polls are a great place to get started. You know why boys join or not, why they stay, and why they quit! Everything else is too complicated and screws up the info. You know why I say that? Because when my son joined up, neithet my son or myself had any idea, clue or notion of "The three G's " or what it might mean. I never heard that phrase before. Chances are good, that alot of very fine and educated parents and kids have no idea either. It's kinda like a Dr telling you that you need a Modified Radical Right Side Neck Disection . He knows exactly what that is. So do other Drs. It's THEIR terminology. Not mine. I had to ask and had to look it up to find out what they were gonna do to me. Turns out all he had to say was "I'm gonna cut open the right side of you neck and cut out your cancer." But he was so used to the speak he used,the terminology and the familiarity of those around him, trhat he just talked to me like I knew. Same for scouting: Those of you who are 10, 20, 30 years into the program just assume everybody in, outside or thinking of joining knows . Truth be told, my entire idea of Scouting 2 years ago was a group of boys who hung out at one of the parents house ( on rotation) and learned about things like flags, knives and how to clean up the environment. *I had no idea about any connection to any religion, the 3 G's or any politics what so ever. I didn't even know there was any association with churches or Co's. Now, am I the exception, or am I just a standard parent who is/was just like millions of other parents. Remember, you guys (as well as me) are active parents/ leaders/ organizers and former scouts. But not everybody is. Some of us are people who though: "Oh hey look..it's the Cub/Boy Scouts. I bet Jr would like to do that!" And that sums up our knowledge!

Hey! Does anybody else speak Klingon? Does Klingon count? LOL! I was only kidding! Seriously, I was only kidding! I do not speak anything but english and sometimes moron!

As far as the word "agnostic" itself.... I would be les concerned with the actual dictionary defined meaning of the word that what the youth understood it to mean. Find out exactkly what he thinks it means, then work from there. He may be misunderstanding or completely using the wrong word from what he actually feels! Kinda like the difference between respect and blind loyalty.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

This may be a response soo late that it may not even matter, but from my experience with a Jr Squad member of our fire dept.... Sometimes these issues are nothing more than problems with the religion his parents "chose for him" or forced upon him. My particular Jr member was having doubts about organized religion in general, because his stidies, found out that the Sabbath is actually on Saturday . So he asked his parents, his Sunday School teacher and his preacher why we hold fast to the notion that "When God says something,it is not questionable, not to be tested nor taken lightly", yet we changed the Sabbath after reading that God declared the seventh ( Saturday by our calendar week)day a day of rest and to be the sabbath." (This is from studies of Constantine) The isuue had less to do with religion than to do with the "Don't you question what we say" attitude of the church and his parents. This youth was taught to "seek out God's word and the truth in it", yet when he found something he did not understand,and asked for closure on it, he was basically admonished and attacked. That kind of stuff does make you question the integrity of your parents, people, organized religion and religion in general. The youth in question has since graduated school, grown up, gotten married and has two children of his own. He changed religions from the one his parents followed and is actually a youth minister himself that has the respect of his church and many from other churches and the surrounding area. He doesn't have any "questions , issues , or problems with religion any more. Of course, it seems he didn't have problems with religion before, but the people pushing that religion.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Your den can still camp out - but only on the pack level with other dens from your pack, but cannot offer certain classes / merit badge electives/ belt loops & pins . For example: BB gun shooting. That has to be at an approved council/ district campout. But you still have to get a tour permit/ liability certificate.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

"What ( Cub Scout/ Bear) electives are more practical/ fun/ actually worth while?" Scoutnut,I know fun is also important, but if they had a ( for example) BREAKING STUFF WITH HAMMERS elective, he'd be all over that one. and it would be fun for him, but it would be totally useless, not teach him something he already knows and, and have no worth. I do want whatever we do to be fun, but he may pick something that halfway through.....he may decide that it'snot fun. What I meant, and what I should have said was " Do you have any recomendation - based on your experience - about which ones cubs may like best. I'll let him choose,but also want to be able to guide him based on what I said above. But I do appreciate your imput!

NOT A CARDIGAN!

This is a spin off, but again, I still cannot make it work right! It's from Gang Signs: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=263345 Long, long ago, in a neighborhood 4 miles up the road, I grew up. And as any kid growing up, I did something I thought was cool: I got my left ear pierced. Now, I cannot honestly say if I really thought I was cool, thought I was just being different, or rebelling against my parents. Pretty much, I decided I was going to pierce my ear. I went over to the fire dept ( I was a member) and put ice in a towel and held it to my ear until it was numb. I then took a sewing needle, held it in a lighter flame with needlenose plyers for the appropriate amount of time : Meaning the lighter was too hot to hold any longer, and then dipped it into alcohol. Then I stuck it through my ear. I then took the little diamond earring that I had soaking in alcohol, and stuck it in my ear and put on the back. Later, when I got home... I swear I was no sooner than 3 foot in the door when my dad looked at me and asked me if I was gonna start wearing a bra and panties too!. I wore an earring for maybe 5 years, and eventually, just didn't wear it any more. I did have two holes in my left ear, and one is still there , while the other grew over. Now, here is what I wonder: What is my son going to do, that will shock me? I had an earing...no big deal. I know too many people with face, nose, cheek eyebrow, tongue,and other unmentionalble places pierced. I won't do that, but I am also not so shocked by it. It's pretty much the cultural norm. So what will my son do? Lag bolt a two by four to his head? Get a dinosaur bone surgically implanted to his nose? Split their two arms into four arms? Snake pupil transplants? What will your child do? Any Guesses? LOL!

My son has completed enough requirements to get his Bear badge. Now, we are gonna start working on electives. I am not a "collector " parent. I do not want my son to see how many he can get , and they have no meaning. I'd rather he only finish 1 elective and it mean something and he had fun instead of 20 electives that he won't remember 3 days later. Now, I realize that each kids is different and that there are different strokes for different folks. There is no right answer.....but just as a guide to maybe keep me from wasting my/his time... What ( Cub Scout/ Bear) electives are more practical/ fun/ actually worth while? I suppose you could name your top 3 in order of importance to you.

Cerial Killer? Oh my God! I am one too! Ohhh maaaaan! My pack is gonna be upset when they find out a cerial killer is also a Den Leader!!! I guess you will be reading about my pack in the papers next!

"but they are going to encourage rank novices to pick up a bow and shoot it in their backyards by putting an insufficiently explained elective in the Bear book. " EXACTLY! That's why I'm about to go to Lowes and get a roll of 2/12 wire, some connectors, a romex, electric tape and a cheap screwdriver,and rigg up a plug......... to stick in my 220 outlet and make a crane!!!!! It will be safer right? LOL!

I just happened to be browsing through my sons Bear book. I was just reading over electives and trying to pick out some that were fun, educational, and things that he would remember a year from now and not forget after the next elective. So I saw Elective 20: Sports ( BSA Bear handbook) In this section is archery. I thought: "Hey, that would be cool and I could buy him a basic/beginer bow and arrows for a decent price!" But then.... I saw the instructions. Now, I asume these are instructions for people who have NO IDEA ( such as myself) how to shoot, nor have they ever shot before. Let me qoute: "HOW TO SHOOT A BOW AND ARROW" "Hold the bow level and lay an arrow axcross it, touching your forefinger. Nock the arrow with the cock feather turned up. Face the target sideways. As you raise the bow to a straight up shooting position...." Okay, the rest doesn't matter! "Nock the arrow with the Cock Feather" ? What the hell does that mean? What is "nock"? What is the "Cock feather"? Why isn't there a picture diagram at least showing what they aretalking about. Couldn't they be just a tad bit more specific and explanatoryabout this? Now,I realize this is usually something done at a council or district level, but by putting it in the Bear book, and in electives at that, I get the idea that this is also an "at home" activity too. I'm thinking we might just try Elective 4-E: Make an electromagnetic crane. ( BSA Bear book) I mean, what could go wrong there but a few burnt finger and a neighborhood power black-out right? LOL!

SMT; While I think showing the sign while posing atop a mountain is nothing at alto wory about, and it sounds like what they are doing won't be confused as a gang sign.....I do know how you can solve this. You and the other leaders do the same thing. Start giving each other, as well as the scouts that sign. Within the week, the scouts will have dropped doing that like a hot potatoe! LOL!

Now, having said that, I also se another problem and cannot blame the parents or scouts for it: I am a new leader this year. So I went to the scout shop and bought a uniform as well as all te appropriate patches. But here's the thing: I bought a new centenial shirt. I had too. I really, really wanted the older shirt (especially since they were on sale for $9.00) , but they did not have my size. So now here I am at a Den meeting. I am standing right beside the den leader. He is wearing his old style shirt with red/white numerals . His Den Leader patch is right under (meaning butted up against) his pack number patches. Me on the other hand...I am wearing my new centenial shirt with the officail green/khaki numbers. Mt Assistant Den Leader patch is not butted up under the pack number, but centered on the tech pocket just like it's officially supposed to be. So what's the problem? WEll parents and scout see two people wearing two different shirts arranged differeently, and are told that both shirts are correct. So why is it a big deal if one of there shirts is different? Why is that not correct too? At least in there eyes? We may be sending a mesage that says:" WE do what we want." They might do the same!

"But the fact that it's under the apparel category rather than uniforms still leads me to wonder if it is intended to replace the uniform hat" I'd so no. It's in apparel, not uniforms. They also have sweatshirts, shorts, t'sand what not. They are no more official uniform than my bath towel. I totally agree with jblake. Too many people mix this and mix that. Now, in my pack, we don't require anything from the waoist down. Hat, Shirt (tucked in a must) neckerchief, slider, and belt. We don't require pants as they do not hold up as good as jeans and kids grow soooo fast. You ever have your scout run outside witha brand new pair of pants and come back inside 5 mins later with both knees missing? Now, I'd say the biggest problem with people screwing up the uniform ( meaning non uniform hat with uniform shirt, but missing neckerchief...) is laziness. No, I'm not saying it's always intentional..buyt it's there. Maybe you want to just hurry up,or can'tr find it because you didn't make Jr put it in it'sproper place when he took it off last time. Maybe you are just thinking " Well, close enough." Whatever. It is a uniform, Take pride in it. Of course, maybe the problem is that there are too many variations available and allowed. Maybe NATIONAL should come out with an official A, B, C , and D uniform. Each uniform could have one hat, necker, slider ...etc and that's it! No variations, no options. Either it's correct or not!

"Or are a few Cubs dropping part of the cost of doing business and we should just plan on budgeting it in?" NO! You let fundraising pay after the first time registering? WOW! That's pretty nice of the pack if you ask me. If they don't like the cost of buisness, you are willing to budget it in. What if a handfull would join, but don't want to pay...will that be budgeted in too in the future? Not trying to sound harsh or like a jerk, but at somepoint,you have to say: "Look, we are offerening a program here. At some point you have to recognize it's value and also you have to know you have to pay that value!." Now, as far as how you are set up now...if it works, that's great, but I wouldn't give too much more than that. Soon, you will be bending over backwards and paying people to show up. Sometimes kids grow out of it, parents have other obligation or maybe the scouts suddenly decide to be into sports or even ( as much as we hate it) into girls and just hanging out. Nothing worse than MAKING a scout who does not want to be involved show up! Give them a call. If it's a sudden financial burden ( loss of job or whatnot) offer to help out. Other than that, realize it's just a cycle of scouting: people come, people go.

Gern...this is government. The kid is 8, he been watched since he was 2. Let's see: 8-2=6 The boy owes 6 years of back taxes. He probably used the money to fund his terrorism training!

SMT224. Define "young whipper-snappers_ I am 38. Am I a young whuipper-snapper or am I old, snapped and whipped too? LOL!

SctDad; You do bring up an important point: Allthough the scouts may be doing absolutely nothing wrong, you could have one of those idiot gang members that thinks its a sign of disrespect to their gang. Yep, there is no doubt whatso ever that everybody in the world knows that gang, and not only that, knows what "disses" them too! On another note, I read about a 20 somethuing year old fella Gunned donw in Charlotte , NC because he was wearing a red sweatshirt. Might have beemn a Champion brand, might have been Colunbia brand. The fela was walking to a local library and had books in his arms. A member of one of the local gangs saw the red sweatshirt, ABSOLUTELY knew it was a rival gang member and went for help. Next thing that happened was a drive by murder! It was a plain red sweatshirt with no numbers, marking or symbals on it. The fella was carrying books. I suppose he might have been mistakemn as a rival gang's accountant or secretary, but we know gang mentality does not allow for rational mentality!

FIGURES! Our Pack Family Spring campout and crossover ceremony falls on that weekend. I'm also going to be teaching that weekend too.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Hal, Ken Burns...saw it...loved it! That is actually the series that got my son interested. Just like me, hearing the actual vets talk was the best part. Their words. Funny isn't it that it took me 30 years to appreciate something like that. At least my son has a 30 year head start on me!

John-in-KC Come on! Our government is completely on top of their game! A couple nobody heard of - who do not happen to be on any list - not only get into the White House, but have photos taken with The President of the United States, plus other high ranking members of government....and an 8 year old terrorist is thwarted every time he tries to fly! So....What's the problem?

THANKS! I really appreciate it. I have been to the USS North Carolina no less that 9 times, 2 with my son. Each and every time I go, one old area is closed off for restoration, but another one is open. I'll try those weekends though. Not sure about Jambo. To be honest, as a fairly new scouter and new this year ADL, Today is the first I heard of it. I have no idea what to expect...time, cost, need to stay over night, requirements, pre register? Let me a know and maybe my son and I will attenda nd possibly meet you there! I live less trhan an hour and a half from Kinston.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)