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If they are in clusters of three or four tents, you shouldn't let that spook you. Some PLs really deserve their own tent. Some, after coming from O/A or their venturing crew, are setting up a hammock (or less) anyway. We don't micromanage sleeping arrangements. Patrols acquire the tents they think they need. I try to get each patrol to set up as far away as the SM can stand from us and any other patrol. It works quite nicely.

Not a Philmont traveler, but I have come to agree that everyone in the crew should have the capacity for 8 liters, only half of which is necessarily kept full while trekking. I.e., if one person is down to his last liter, the nearest stream or spring is time for a refill to get everyone back up to at least 4 L. Even if you are camping beside a glorious spring or stream in a mile or two, there might be enough of dry terrain and heat to make that last hump tortuous. Obviously, if you are approaching a dry camp, everyone fills to the max and balances their loads. I prefer nalgene wide-mouth 96 oz. collapsible. I filter/fill one of those and, once purified, dispense into three smaller canteens, then fill it again. (Note to self: remind crew president to add water management to his scoring rubric for next month's wilderness hike.)

@Carbenez, Welcome to the forums! From your post, it's not clear if this problem should fall on your SM or your committee chair (CC). If your son needs a SM conference (SMC) for Life rank, I can understand why a new SM might be having trouble blocking out time for that in a meeting. He's basically playing catch-up with every scout, and those conferences in particular can be lengthy. The SM probably realized that constantly telling your son "next meeting" wasn't working. Once they've had their last SMC for any rank, our life scouts are often responsible for going directly to the CC and asking for a board of review. It goes something like this: SM "Well, scout, looks like you've grown a lot while earning that rank, let's consider this conference complete, I'll sign here, and you may go over to Mr. CC there and request a board of review at the committee's earliest possible convenience." We really try to encourage the scout to contact the committee chair or advancement chairperson directly. They are usually pretty nimble and can assemble a group of three members for a BoR. Because of this, we don't consider it the SM's responsibility to line up each scout's BoR.

It's a big country, and I bet these relationships vary. For @@Phrogger, a UC might help identify an issue within the unit that, if addressed, could make the scout feel more welcome in his troop. The UC may serve one or two other units, but I'm not entirely sure that helps the boy. Those units may be a bad fit as well. The DE should have a comprehensive list of the units. So, that's where you'd get the numbers of SMs to call. A seasoned DC (district commissioner, not den chief ) probably would know everyone in every unit. But, not every district has a seasoned commish. The problem with all of these positions is that they are far removed from the scout. (Well at least in large districts. Where I grew up, on the other hand, I was friends with the DE's kids.) And, often the parent has specific questions, while these folks can at best give general answers.

DE = District Executive. He should be able to put you in touch with other scoutmasters. It's good that your SM is willing to try a change. Hope it works.

It seems to matter to lots of folks in this one of Bryan's most popular blogs https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/ Based on the pamphlet and the phrasing, I felt that the point of the badge was to get the boy into a routine of planning, packing for, and returning from camping trips (lather, rinse, repeat). With all of the hair-splitting that has since ensued, makes me wonder if the requirement would have better been worded "Go on, and return home from, 15 camping trips of varying lengths." Would that stifle the hair splitting? Probably not, but at least there could be a uniform reply ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjsSvjA5TuE

Our scouts ask for winter weekends in a cabin. I supposed there's a lot to be gained from them - just not nights towards Camping MB. As I said elsewhere, I only saw the outside of boy scout cabins until my boys joined this troop. It was a magical memory, bunking down in the snow wondering how the "other half" lived. However, I also got frost-bite once, and later spent a long night as SPL in a warming "hut" (i.e. re-purposed dining hall) thawing out unprepared crossovers. Learning how to attend to myself taught me how to attend to symptoms in others. Hypothermia? Got a mild spell of that myself as an adult one June training for BSA guard.

Weakness of mine: listing possible solutions, when in fact it is up to the patrol to figure it out. I think this is why LDS kept the Cub and Boy Scout programs. They explicitly force boys to work in community to resolve complex problems. There's no boiler-plate to fulfilling a vision of camping and hiking independently with your mates. Yet, we can offer everyone some milestones so they know when they've "arrived." A well-performing patrol is one of those milestones. I'm sorry, but Venturing and Varsity offers no comparison.

Here's the view from where I sit ... 1. I am not just a scouter. Kids see me around long after they stop participating in the life of the troop or crew. 2. They still made those oaths. Just because a youth let his/her registration lapse, I still hold him/her to what they promised. 3. Boys quit for lots of reasons. Only a few of those are the troop's fault. 4. A senior scouter once told me a story of how he went back to his troop one May after realizing the best thing about his previous summer was camp. 5. About a third of my venturers are boys who want to "catch up" to their scout buddies. So, I hold out hope that something I say might sink in and make a boy feel welcome.

As do many of our first-years!

Whatever "Cubelos" is, it sounds like fun. Definitions "district" and "council" aside, it does not sound like it only runs at night; therefore, IMHO, it would count as a day camp. Instead of being dropped off, they supposedly walk from wherever they've been sleeping to the days activities. Letter of the law. Done. This is not a question I would even broach with a DE.

True, the PM has to be suspended in order to implement age-restricted activities. Or, the boys need to decide on rearranging patrols so that each patrol does the stuff appropriate for the youngest boys in their group. The best of both worlds: the older PL picks a younger APL and when they come to these age-based splits, they segregate accordingly and PL and APL arrange to rendezvous after their respective activities.

The "why" comes from BSA rolling out requirements at different times and boots on the ground picking up the pieces. The Camping MB requirement has been around in some form for quite some time, gradually becoming more verbose as BSA sought to control membership loss via hegemony over youth outdoor overnights. The T2FC camping night requirements are quite recent, and seem to be an attempt to promote a more experiential learning model. Your particular summer camp program (or maybe your troop's rules) , seem to be written so as to guide crossovers to focus on 1st class requirements over MBs. I suspect their thinking is that only one week of long term camp counts toward the MB, most scouts don't earn the MB in their first year, so just make a policy that the 2nd full week counts.

We were having an 18th birthday for a friend of Son #2's who joined our troop for about a year. His mom was reminiscing how shortly after he quit attending meetings, the boy had roped them into family camping at Racoon Creek State park. Aptly named, the raccoons consider your food theirs. In the night, the vermin got a hold of some snack left by the campfire. Then they started clawing at the Boy Scout Handbook the boy had left out! I asked the boy, "If I had known, I would have told you that if you came back to scouts, you would have the coolest handbook by virtue of the claw marks all over it. Would you have re-joined our troop?" He said, "You know, I might just have considered it." Got any other one-liners that may or may not convince a youth to change his mind, but would be fun to put out there anyway?

He was careful? That boy's ready to tackle an Eagle Project Workbook! Tell him to hustle up and advance to life. If the kid's trustworthy and his patrol leader can see what skills need to be demonstrated next ... reward the boy's initiative and run with it. @@TAHAWK's references, I believe, refer to registering with council completion of rank advancement and merit badges ... not each requirement ... So what we're talking about here is just a little more work at the SMC looking for signatures in two places.

First, hiking one's gear in a mile or two is what, growing up, we called "scout camping." Eight mile per day hikes through the farmland and byways in our county, that was "backpacking." What is labeled "backpacking - overnight, backcountry" we called (and I continue to use the term) "forced marches in bear country" my Sons' scoutmaster called it "a walk in the big woods." Second, the autumn before crossing over, another dad and I took our boys camping at a wonderful location about a mile or two in from the trail head. I'm not so sure that the entire den would have been prepared for it. My son need help carrying his sleeping bag. These two boys (at the time) were particularly sanguine -- easy to work with. They also were terrible at starting fires, so we didn't have to worry about them burning the State Forest down. The weekend was calm -- unusual for camping with me -- and the boys had been through much worse at resident camp. So, given your description, unlike the others, I'll give you "yes, but ..." Things to consider: - How close are you to emergency services, should you need them? - How well have the boys behaved on previous campouts? - It takes a lot of attention to detail, picking up after yourself, not lighting a fire every whip-stich, knowing where you're going, how to get back, how to get help, etc .... Are your boys the type who will listen to you and work with the adults in a friendly manner? - There are a lot of locations where adults are going to get away from noisy kids, is your destination sufficiently isolate, or your boys sufficiently calm? - It's not just your boys. Have you ask yourselves the same about the parents? One mom/dad who always resorts to yelling can make an entire campground regret your presence. - Do you have a den chief? If not, this might be the time to ask a local troop or crew to recommend one.

Been there. It stinks. Sorry. Yes, scramble and get a female adult leader. Call your council VOA to see if there is someone who can step up at the last minute.

Well, us being strangers on the internet, ignorance is par for the course. Part of the problem is the way BSA has made people feel "incomplete" if they don't make Eagle. All the ways your son mastered skills made him a first class scout. All the ways he provided service made him a star scout. All the ways he's continued his dedication made him a life scout. His attention to detail (especially given his busy schedule) may make him an Eagle scout. But even if he doesn't have the where-with-all to wrap up those camping nights and anything else, know this: he has completed what he started. I've seen collegiate valedictorians proudly have Life scout printed on their bios for their 10,000 other classmates and their loved ones to read. If he works his plan. That's just gravy.

Thanks for the update. Even if it's a little rough. If he doesn't have any friends among this year's cross-overs, I would suggest a new troop. Maybe one who goes to the same camp, but later in the summer. But it sounds like your boy may have a bad case of wherever-you-go-there-you-are. So there's no guarantee you'll recoup that $300. Just make sure he pays you back if he bails. You might need to work with him father-son style to enjoy the camping stuff. Ask him, "Do you really want to learn to pitch the troop tents? Ask the QM if you can check one out, and you and I will learn together this weekend." Likewise with the food thing. "Would you like to be better prepared the next time you get a smaller plate? What dried snacks would you like to pack as a 'plan b'? Maybe we could try some different kinds of noodles or jerky together." "Which scout do you like the most (hate the least)? Maybe we can invite him to come fishing/to a movie with us." And down the list of 1st class skills you go. Teach him how to crack open that handbook, do what it says, and see how it works out. This may sound like breaking the patrol method. But right now, his real patrol is his family. Give him some practice leading there and see where you wind up.

You are describing cultural purposes. Not political. One is the celebration of permissive sexual ethics; the other, of a lack of melanin.

As the requirement stands now, boys can camp in their back yard with their patrol every weekend and have it count. (Actually, some of my scouts' back yards abut some awesome game land, so the ASMs and I would wrestle over who gets to chaperon.) Think about this: Is the MB to prove that boys can camp? Or to prove that they are good at propping up troop numbers? If the latter, then change the MB name to "JTE Score Boosting." We have gotten so obsessed with protecting BSA's brand that we've missed out on how to promote the brand. Son #1 and I were once rigging canvas for our youth group at a music festival. This girl pipes up and says "I wish I could tie knots like that!" Cha-Ching: instant venturer. Actually two. Her brother saw her signing up for shooting sports and he joined in! Maybe the requirement should read: "... at least 50 nights ... half of which must not be scouting-related activities." It would be like introducing the world to our best scouts up-close and personal!

In what marketing universe? My book-learning may be outdated, but I was trained that the typical response rate to postcards is about 4% or less.

@@perdidochas, as an advisor, I have no problem with venturers working their crew using the patrol method. I have had problems with boy scouts working their troop using a club method. I don't know if it's the age range, mixing of sexes, or something cultural, but the propensity for boy scouts to sit on their hands when someone else steps in to work is much higher than with venturers. The PM makes those boys more responsible for the working of things. So, for NYLT, the lingua franca of the patrol structure is a better option.

Ditto. The fact that I could grab my brother's old gear, and spend a weekend not being asked to mow grass or shovel snow or till a garden -- made it worth hauling said gear a mile (or so it seemed) to a campsite. And that was back when you didn't get a replay of the races, so when you missed NASCAR, you really missed it! I think at one point my SM indicated that I was clocking about 15-20/year, and that was just with the troop. I just shrugged. It wasn't until I met boys from other troops that I learned that it was not second-nature for some. I only saw winter cabins from the outside. The smoke from their chimneys would sometimes obscure the view of a star I was watching.

What is this about? BSA over the past two decades investing in Lion Cubs and STEM scouts and divesting from Venturing and Varsity scouts. Most Mormon Venturing crews were male-only. No problem. But, the venturing program, especially the new ALPS has nothing to offer LDS in terms of the spiritual growth their parishioners expect from their youth. (E.g., there is no national conference of venturing males, there was a disconnect between what LDS women would like to see in their growth and what Venturing had to offer, etc ...) Why pay BSA for a program that detracts from what their parishioners want to see in terms of youth development? Especially one that BSA itself is not heavily invested in? That the youth of the nation have not embraced with enthusiasm? I think we'll still see a lot of Mormon boys working towards eagle. Just skimming their extensive list of "Young Men 14-18 Activities", there remains "Accomplish Rank Advancement" (https://www.lds.org/youth/activities/scouting/boy-scouts/accomplish-rank-advancements?lang=eng). It refers to the http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards.aspx -- a page that makes no mention of venturing awards. The LDS did not drop BSA. BSA dropped venturing for LDS.