Proud Eagle

When I went through SM/ASM specific training the weekend before last, there was a lively discussion between a few of those in attendance (including one of the trainers) about distinctive unit patches. Two people from different troops were wearing such unit patches. They were in the same location and of the same size as the region patches, worn on the right sleeve. It was the first I had ever heard of such a thing. It may be common here in the metro area, I don't know. Another odd thing, one of the ASMs from one troop mentioned having to earn their troop neckerchief by demonstrating certain Scout skills, and that they hadn't yet earned their troop neckerchief because there was one knot they couldn't tie. I thought that was a bit different to say the least.

I am going to have to agree with Bob White and FOG on this issue. I think it would be nice if every Scout at least had the option of experiencing Scouting through a program tailored to the needs and wants of their faith. That doesn't mean I want every Scout unit to be a religious ministry, but there would be nothing wrong with having a multitude of Scouting units that make take full advantage of the opportunity to help Scouts learn about their respective faiths. There is also nothing wrong with a Scouting unit that does not affiliate with any particular creed, sect, or church. There is also nothing wrong with a unit that is affiliated with some particular faith being open to those of other faiths. I am a Roman Catholic and my Scout unit was chartered by a United Methodist church. There was only minimal religious activity by the troop. In fact more often than not the Philmont grace was the extent of religious activity during troop functions, other than Scout Sunday. The most religious troop event other than Scout Sunday that I can remember would have been or last Philmont trek (we did a trail side service every day, quite unusual for us, but quite welcome at least by me), and next to that my Eagle COH (two prayers during one meeting!). I have said it before and I will say it again. I really appreciate the way things are done a Philmont base camp. Every day one hour is devoted camp wide to religious activity and services. (7:00 p.m. if memory serves) All together in one part of camp there is a large Protestant chapel, a Catholic chapel, a Jewish chapel, and an LDS chapel (I am not certain chapel is the correct word in the Jewish and LDS cases, does anyone know for certain?). During quiet moments in one service you can hearing the songs or prayers at the others (except I would assume the LDS, which actually has an enclosed building), but they are not so close or loud to distract from the service you are attending. It is in my opinion almost the realization of the Scouting ideal, that we can each be devoted to our own faith, and yet be united in the principal of duty to God.

Bob White, I could be wrong, but I would think that for-profit company that provides good and/or services to the general public would have a problem if it discriminated against people for being members of the BSA. If they can discriminate against BSA members they can discriminate against Catholics, Republicans, atheists, or ACLU members. Now perhaps a drawing wouldn't qualify as the sort of service that the business is prohibited from discriminating in the provision of, but I would think it is. It really doesn't matter if the BSA engages in legal or illegal discrimination. That is not really related. Instead, what may be at issue is a business that is likely a place of public accommodation discriminating in the way it is providing services or benefits to the public, based most likely on either political or religious grounds.

EagleInKY, There are 3 coarses this fall in KY. SR-652 Shawnee Trails, Aug 27-29 and Sept 11-13 SR-649 Blue Grass, Sep 17-19 and Oct 8-10 SR-606 Lincoln Heritage, Sep 24-26 and Oct 8-10 I wouldn't mind going this fall. However, since my fall schedule is highly uncertain and I still haven't finished the current round of training, I am probably go to wait until some other time. Plus I really am not doing much with Scouting now, so it would make completing a ticket somewhat interesting. (On the other hand a year when a person isn't busy with Scouting stuff would have some advantages in terms of being able to work it into the schedule.)

This would really depend on under what circumstances this backpack is being given away. If it is just an individual getting rid or old equipment, I would say that is totally their option. You could always try to convince them the good done is greater than the harm. You could also make the argument that what groups you or anyone else is a member of are of no consequence. You should ask rhetorically if he is checking the religious and political affiliations of everyone else involved. Then you should let him know that these boys will be using the backpack (if they receive it) for X, Y, and Z activities, and that it shouldn't really matter who they decide to go on those activities with. If this is a company holding a drawing for equipment, then there is potentially a major problem here. Normally companies aren't allowed to discriminate for a wide range of reasons. Being a member of the BSA would probably be such a protected class, if this is just a normal for profit company. In that case I would enter the drawing as an individual, so as not to be confused with a BSA unit (since many such give aways have restrictions on being entered only by individuals, not by groups). If this still didn't work, I would probably inform them that there could be negative consequences, and likely drop it at that. If this is a matter as Eamonn thinks of how to deal with the issue with the boys, I really don't know. I would simply make certain whatever response I gave was honest. (Boys are never shielded from such things. The homosexual issue was the basis for a number of discussions with others while I was a youth. I once even got into a mild argument with someone during lunch in the school cafeteria, simply because I was the only Boy Scout they knew of. Once while traveling to an event in uniform since becoming an adult, I got the "you don't really exist" treatment from a store employee. Based on their dress and demeanor, I would guess it was related to one of the 3 Gs.)

Bob White, When I said normally I had in mind the fact that some time back during one of these legal/financial arguments it was determined that in at least one state the state's laws were such that BSA units were, at least in certain cases, legally separate from the charter organization. I don't remember who it was that made the point or what state it was, but no one managed to refute it at the time. OK. Now on to the fun stuff. If the BSA unit and the charter organization are legally and financially the same, that would mean several things. The most important of these would be that the policies of the unit regarding Scout accounts would bind the CO on the same issue. Now the tricky issue is weather or not there is any provision in the unit's policies that specifically states what happens if the boy transfers to another unit. If there is no such provision, then the CO can make any decision they want. If however, the policy states that the Scout may take the funds with them to a their new unit, then it would seem that any funds need to be transferred in this case as well. The real problem would be if traditionally you have allowed transfers of scout account funds, but there is nothing in writing to prove this. I would suggest as proof of the basic principals in my argument the various arguments over governmental entities not being able to charter scout units do to various laws on discrimination. Everyone seemed to pretty easily accept that in those cases, whatever the unit did, the CO was in fact doing. So it would seem the same principal would hold true here as well. The only thing that would thwart all of this is the BSA policies about not being able to enter into contracts on behalf of the unit (since legally there is no such thing). It it possible that the unit leaders that created the policies on scout accounts (and therefore created the possible common law contract) may in fact be personally responsible in this case. (BSA says you can't create or enter into contracts on behalf of the unit or BSA as a unit leader, only on your own behalf.) Now it would take a sharper legal mind than mine to determine if the BSA policy is actually binding in this case, or if the unit does in this case have the power to act on behalf of the CO. Either way the issue is sorted out there are some serious implications. In one way, there is no mechanism preventing COs from using unit funds or equipment for whatever purpose they choose, under any circumstances. On the other hand, if the actions of the unit equate to actions of the CO, then unit leaders would have broad capability to do things that would bind the CO, or cause the CO to become liable for various things. I would now like to point out a similar, but in no way related, case. The Army ROTC often has its members complete a form that shows what courses they plan to take when in order to graduate on time. The student sings this form as does the academic adviser. From what I have been told, the Army has several times managed to force universities to allow students to graduate with the degree, because either the university was unable to fulfill its end of the contract (the form never really states it has this binding property), or the student successfully completed their portion of the contract. Even in cases where advisers are not empowered to make such agreements by the university, the Army has been able to force universities to abide by the terms of these "contracts". I doubt one of these cases has ever gone very far in court. In fact I can't say for certain that any of them ever have been decided by a court.

OK. Thanks for correcting the record on that. There are times my understanding of rulings (or just my memory of them) is a bit off. Either way the safety issue should be of prime concern.

This is both a legal and an ethical issue. Legally, Scout units (in the USA) are normally part of the charter organization rather than a seperate entity. (There are of coarse places this may not be the case.) That would support the idea that anything that belongs to the unit actually belongs to the charter organization. However, any funds raised by the unit were expected by those paying for goods and services (or donating equipment and supplies) to be used for the original intended purpose. People bought tickets to the pancake breakfast both to get a good meal and to support Scouting. They did not intend for the church to kick the Scouts to the curb and then use the money they paid for the tickets to be used to buy new vestments for the minister. So it would seem the ethical thing would be for the charter organization to find a way to make certain the money and equipment continue to be used for the good of Scouting. This could mean they reorganize their own unit. It could mean they give the stuff to another unit to use. It could mean they loan out equipment temporarily with the understanding it remains theirs and may in the future be used be a Scout unit of their own.

Can a charter organization (assuming it is a cheritable organization) apply for private grant money and other things of that nature on behalf of a Scout unit. As an example, if the group offering the grant requires applications to include the intended use of the grant money, can the charter organization honestly answer that it intends to use the money to purchase equipment for use by its Scout unit? I am guessing that is OK. If it isn't then there are some very serious and, based on my experiences, widespread problems.

If it was purely a matter of ideals, and not perceptions, I would expect to see such a move the next time a left leaning Democrat is elected. However, opposing the BSA would be like opposing the Army, or opposing the Daughters of the American Revolution, or opposing the Catholic Church. It is something politicians might be willing to do on the idealogical level, but they would not do because of how radical such a thing would be perceived as being. It would be sort of like a politician coming out against apple pie, July 4th fireworks, and barbecue. Even if they thought those things were bad for some sort of health, safety, or idealogical reason, they wouldn't come straight out and say they opposed those things. The political impact of coming out against those things, because of the way the public perceives them, is far greater than coming out on the same subject in some abstract way. So while a politician might go so far as to call policies similar to those of BSA hateful, discriminatory, and bigoted, they will not speak out directly in any significant way against the BSA. This is really all related to the fact that you can't quite trust what a politician says or does, because it is almost always motivated more by their desire to be re-elected/elected rather than any core beliefs they may potentially hold. There are certain politicians that totally abandon any real beliefs in favor of what is politically expedient, while others compromise to a lesser extent. It is truly rare to find a politician that always stands up for what they believe without any consideration for political fall out. However, I am somewhat reluctant to condemn politicians, because all humans are in some ways vulnerable to the temptations of power, with the exception of one who I believe already had unlimited power.

OK, let me see if I can shed some light on this. OIL CO pays a combined $1.25 to purchase and refine oil to produce unleaded gasoline. The company decides it wants to add a 10% mark-up to the cost. So the company adds .125 to the cost, producing a total of $1.375 to the next entity down the line. Now lets say the cost to OIL CO increases to $1.35 per gallon. OIL CO still wants to keep its 10% mark-up. However, they realize if they pass on the full increase in costs and the increased mark-up to the consumer, they will lose enough sales to impact profits. (There is usually some point at which the consumer decides enough is enough and start to cut back consumption. Gas prices are relatively immune to this, but even then there is a point at which increased price decreases total volume sold.) Therefore, OIL CO decides to reduce its mark-up to 9.5%. This produces a price of $1.47825, of which 0.12825 is profit. Gasoline is usually more or less a fixed demand commodity (there are seasonal fluctuations, and external factors such as overall economic health, but all other variables being equal changes in gas prices only have a minimal affect on the volume of gas sold, since there are no readily available alternatives to gas in most applications), so we can assume the OIL CO is now making more money in total. Even if there is a small drop off in volume sold, the company can still make more money. The problem is the companies can't be 100% certain at what point sales volume will begin to decline in response to price increases. So, as you can see, the oil company can easily make more money in total while decreasing the profit margin. Also, the oil company can claim it did something to help the consumers (by decreasing its percentage of profit), while others can claim increases in both sales and profits in a total dollar form. I should also note that decreasing the profit margin decreases a company's ability to adapt to market shifts, and it decreases its willingness to make capital investments such as extra production capacity or new technologies. That unwillingness to make capital investments later causes further cost increases to the consumers when demand exceeds new supply or when there is a loss of efficiency due to use of outdated technology.

Generally speaking, my understanding is that ADA only applies to public accommodations. Part of the basis for the Dale ruling was that BSA wasn't a place of public accommodation, as I understand it. Therefore there is little in the way of a legal argument on this issue. Also, there is one very strong argument you could make. The safety of the group is a greater concern than allowing any one person to go. If the individual can not be relied upon to do what is required when it is required, that could jeopardize the safety of the entire crew, under certain circumstances. It would definitely have a negative impact on the experiences of the others if there was one member of the crew that could not carry his weight (literary or figuratively). As Mr. Spock said, "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one." (Of coarse, as Admiral Kirk later proved, there are times the opposite is true, but we won't get into that.)

There is a large group of Scouts/Scouters (an entire troop I think) that still wears the old uniform around here. They search long and hard to find replacement parts and patches, but they somehow manage to do it. So some people still haven't made the switch. I never have really figured out what that is all about. I guess they must not like the current uniform very much.

Internal Revenue Service

I just hope your council doesn't go the route of mine. All those wishing the SE would leave/be kicked out got their wish. Unfortunately a certain goverment agency with a 3 letter abreviation was at least indirectly involved, so say my relatively reliable sources. irs

There have been a series of pretty good unit elections videos produced nationally. They are updated every few years, and some prefer one of the older ones over the current one, but I think they are all pretty good. It isn't unusually for several versions to be in circulation at once. Normally these videos are copied with the unit election team training video on the same tape. Some lodges also produce their own unit election videos. I haven't ever seen any of these, but I have heard some are good. Many lodges also distribute camp promotion videos. I think the videos can be found on the current lodge resource CD. These are distributed to all NOAC participants. Any of the lodges, regions, or sections may have decided to post this on-line. The video can also be ordered on tape, though I don't have the stock number.

I for one was very disappointed in the video. I wanted something that was like a mini-documentary on the Jamborree. Perhaps a video scrap book if you will. What I got was a cheesy promo video that didn't really do a very good job of showing what it was like to be there. It also left out most of the things I most wished I had a video of to remember things by. I heard that the shows staff put together a video of their own that is superior to the official one.

I attended our council's spring camporree this weekend. It was a very good (not quite great) weekend. It was also the first troop camping trip for many in my troop. 7 of the new scouts and 2 of our experienced Scouts attended. For adult leadership we had the SM, an ASM (me), and one of the new boy's parents each night. The trip was relatively successful. The acting SPL (our Troop Guide/Instructor) did a very good job keeping things together. Tent set up went nicely, even though it was done in the dark without prior practice. (It went so smoothly I had time to eat a 3 piece fish dinner from captain d's between helping select a site for the tents and being needed again.) As with all camporrees, there were problems. However, most of them were out of site from the Scouts, and so they all seemed to have quite a good time. The only thing I was really disappointed in was that we only had 9 of 17 Scouts attend. (That and the fact we had to suffer the embarrassment of asking a neighboring cub pack if we could borrow a dutch oven to make a cobbler, only to be offered most of an entire extra cobbler they had already made.) Anyways, the point I am trying to make is, these sorts of things really can go well for everyone. The do have a few pieces of advice to offer. I would definitely split that group into two patrols. I would then want a Troop Guide for each patrol. It would also probably be best if a second ASM was tasked with helping the NSPs. It would also be helpful if you do a tent set up and take down demo at a troop meeting. Hopefully you can do this in the form of having some older Scouts demonstrate, then let the new ones try it. This should make camp site set up go more smoothly. Another thing would be to stress the critical items on the packing list, perhaps even have a shake down. I know we got lucky this weekend because it didn't rain on us much, because at least one of the new Scouts forgot to bring a poncho. It sounds like your are on the right path. Set your plans and then stick to them. (Though don't have a plan so rigid it can't stand up to a few set-backs or take advantage of unexpected opportunities.) Good luck. I will be keeping my eyes on this thread, since some of the advice given to you may be of use to me.

I have sometimes thought about the possibility of becoming a professional Scouter. It is one of the possibilities I keep in mind. I know I want to do something that involves the greater good or serving others. I also know I should make use of the leadership skills that I have. I don't think I would make a very good priest. I don't think I have the patience to be a school teacher. Politics is a very risky choice of a career. I am not really certain I would be the best choice for a military officer. Everyone also says to find something you like to do for a career. Well, I love Scouting, so it would seem to fit. I don't have any real experience with the sort of work professionals do, but then again I don't have work experience in any field I would be likely to choose. I recently met one of the district executives in the council here where I go to school. He is a relatively recent graduate of the same university I attend. I am a political science major, and he got his degree in poli sci. We ended up having an interesting talk about classes and professors. Both the strangest and most impressive degree I have known a professional to have was a masters in classical studies. Those are pretty rare even in the academic world, so I would imagine he probably was the only person employed by BSA at that time with that degree. I found this on scouting.org: Some of the majors and college classes that could be of benefit for a career in Scouting are: General business Non-profit management Marketing Finance and accounting Public speaking American Humanics

recipes? there are recipes for campfire and Scout cooking? That just takes all the fun out of it. There wouldn't be any more chicken surprise if we all followed recipes. There would be no more super-atomic-green-funk-dutch-oven-chili (don't ask). There would be know more contests to name the now unidentifiable food we just cooked. My suggestion is to come up with something you want to make, and try and make it. If you put good stuff into good cookware and use good common sense methods of preparation you will get something good out of it. You may not get what you wanted, but you will still get something good. My troop created its favorite dish in this way. We were trying to create a chicken casserole using a rough adaptation of someones memory of a recipe they had once seen. We ended up with way too much water in the thing. We ended up having a very stew like chicken dish. When we served it, it quickly gained the name chicken surprise. It turned into the troops all time favorite dish. We still don't have a recipe for it, just make sure it contains: chicken, rice and/or noodles, some vegetables of some sort, seasonings, maybe some cream of mushroom or some other sort of soup as an extra item for the base, and whatever else is in the patrol box or troop trailer, and you too will soon have chicken surprise. Who knows, you may even rediscover that casserole we were trying to make. (This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

In my unit ASMs don't currently seem to have any real assigned function, other than just helping out when and how they are able. They are sometimes assigned tasks related to specific activities, such as coordinating some part of the planning for an upcoming trip, but very rarely is there any permanent duty assigned. I personally think this is not a good thing. Unfortunately, those that we have as ASMs (that includes me) are not always available for every meeting and every campout (in fact I think my attendence is about par for the coarse for ASMs, and that isn't too good since I go to school 2 hours from home). OK, perhaps I should have said the ASMs are only occasionally available for anything. Therefore it would be difficult to delegate some duty to an ASM. On the flip side, it is possible that if each ASM had something they knew they were responsible for, it is more likely they would be able to find time to show up. I would strongly suggest several things, based on past observations, and present theorising: There should be an ASM to work with each of the major troop leaders (ASPLs, QM, etc), since you never can tell when adult guidance may be needed in the field. These probably don't need to be full time assignements, but more like special duties. I would also suggest having an ASM who is purely the back up for the SM. This person should be there in case the MACK truck theory is ever put into practice (for those unfamiliar with that, the idea is that even if the most critical individual is hit by a truck tommorrow, the show still gows on without missing a beat). This will help solve many problems that occur when the SM has to step down on short notice. (I should know, I was the SPL at the time immediately after our old SM stepped down, and we didn't have an ASM ready to fill in until a permanent replacement could be selected. Instead we just had to make do without an SM for about 6 months.) I personally am not really a big fan of the idea of each patrol having its own ASM. That would make it too easy for the patrol to function like a cub den with the ASM as its den leader. On the other hand, I do see the need for specialised ASM support for the various programs for new, experienced, and older Scouts within the troop, so this could sometimes be necessary.

I am glad to hear he is going. It is a great opportunity. Everyone I know that has gone (and I know quite a few people that have) highly reccommends it. Those that I know that have gone are among the most capable leaders I know of in the Order. I also know I regret not having gone. I recieved an invitation while I was lodge chief, but did not attend. Maybe someday I will get that opportunity again. You can find more information on NLS at the OA webpage: http://www.oa-bsa.org/programs/nls/

I love a Rumsfeld press conference.

If we are going with fictional characters, I would say the kid from the books "Hatchet" and its sequel ("The River", I think) would make the ultimate wilderness survival instructor. Now for a Scoutmaster, I am going to go the sci-fi route. I would have to say Luke Skywalker would make a darn good SM. Now the other major sci-fi franchise, would present a few problems. Despite the obvious leadership qualities of the various captains of the various Enterprises, there is a major question about faith, and of coarse the quote from ST II about the one thing Kirk never was was a Boy Scout. Now for some more realistic figures, I would say any of the 5 stars (the Generals of the Army, the General of the Air Force, and the Fleet Admirals) from WWII certainly had the leadership qualities needed. Though at least a few of them had personalities that would cause problems. Then of coarse the old ladies would start to wonder if the Scouts were "militaristic". John Paul II would make a good SM. He certainly has the 12th point covered. He knows a few things about survival from his time hiding from the Nazis (they didn't much care for anyone being trained to be a priest) and then later from dealing the communists. He is also known to have been a capable cross country skier in his younger days, so he obviously liked the outdoors. Truman and Ford would probably make good SMs. For a somewhat controversial pick, I think Robert E. Lee would have been a great SM. I know FOG will complain about something involving an uprising against a government, but you must remember Lee's loyalties were to Virginia. He was a Virginian first, and American second. Those sorts of thoughts were fairly common back then. Since then the idea of loyalty to a state has either died or been killed, depending on your point of view. Now George S. Patton would have been a very interesting SM. I don't think he would have been particularly good at it, but it certainly would have been a scene worth seeing, except for obvious concerns for the Scouts involved, particularly if they deviated from 10th point of the Scout Law. The negative comments about Jesus and the temple don't hold water in my opinion. While it may not have seemed courteous or kind or helpful, in the larger view I think it may have been. Jesus was more concerned with their souls and those of others than any profits lost. Also, I would say this is a classic example of a case where the points of the Law are in conflict, and a person must choose which to follow. Jesus choice was to value reverence and loyalty over being courteous. Jimmy Carter would have been a great SM, back before he got old and cranky.(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

This isn't directly on topic, but I wanted to express some indirectly related thoughts that don't really warrant a separate thread. This thread is somewhat interesting to me. There is a kid in my home troop that is, depending on who you ask and when (I think part of this is from the parents not being entirely forward about it) ADD, ADHD, or autistic. I have only attended one troop meeting since I knew of this. It didn't take long to spot the kid, even though I didn't know which one he was. He never really caused any real problem, though he was somewhat less than totally helpful, but then that is a common problem with many new Scouts. The greatest problem was he just couldn't sit still, couldn't keep focused on the task at hand, and would ask questions about everything (including some questions someone else had just asked). Ultimately all of this was relatively easily managed in a regular meeting setting, especially since he knew one of his parents was their. (He or she, never could figure out which one was his parent, just stayed in the back, kept out of the way, but was close by should they be needed. I think that was probably a healthy level of involvement.) However, despite the fact that this wasn't really a problem that night, apparently there have been some real problems on other nights. I am somewhat worried about this. I know I am not equipped in any way shape or form for dealing with that kind of thing. None of my close friends had these sorts of problems so I have no experience dealing with it there. In school most of my classes had relatively few problems with this due to the types of classes I took. So I really don't have any personal experience dealing with this. I certainly don't have any training either. I don't even know where to begin to look, should I need to do so. I also know I don't work well with those who are disruptive, who don't pay attention, or who otherwise tax my patience. It is for that reason that I avoid working with younger kids. I don't even offer to babysit my own niece and nephew, who are in the same town I go to school in (one is second grader, the other kindergarten.) I know other leaders have similar concerns. I went to SM/ASM position specific training this weekend. One leader asked a question about what to do to find more information about those issues. Other leaders quickly responded that they had similar questions, or had needed that information in the past. Unfortunately, the trainers said they didn't really know quite what was available. They suggested contacting the local council's district director who handles Scout units for those with disabilities. Another ASM in attendance suggested some web resources with information on teaching strategies for use with ADD/ADHD kids. No one really had a good solid answer. The answers and suggestions provided here seem good. It seems to me that more is needed. More readily available materials or training from BSA could be helpful. If there are such resources, they don't seem to be very well known. I know I have never seen any mention of a training for such things being conducted in either of the two councils I have interacted with. Thank you all for your time and thoughts. I will try to keep some of the suggestions in mind next time I am faced with a similar situation. Oh, and eagledad2, I couldn't make any sense of your post at all. I really don't know what that had to do with this topic, or any other topic. People may not have agreed with a certain poster who's name sounded like a certain round, rolling object, but you could normally figure out what he was saying even if you couldn't figure out why. On the other hand, I can't even figure out what you are saying. Sorry, but a bit a clarification might be helpful in the future. Also, sentences, capitalization, and punctuation are nice. (None of us are perfect. I know I make lots of grammar and spelling mistakes. Though we should all be striving to improve.)