Proud Eagle

I am afraid I must agree with Bob on the issues of servant leadership and Christ still living. FOG also makes good points. Leadership is a complex thing and cannot be easily summed up in any book or catch phrase. However, both men show a lack of wisdom in dealing with each other. Listen to their Scouting advice, but don't bother trying to figure out the disagreement between the two. On the issue of who started the petty argument between the two of you and who is right, I won't get into that. Personally I think you both need to take a look at weather or not your words are in keeping with the Oath, Law, and various other moral and ethical standards you may choose to apply to yourself. Now CW I must say I am somewhat impressed by your ability to handle being both SPL and Lodge Chief at the same time. Those are two duties I wouldn't really want to deal with at the same time, having held both positions at different times. I think there is always a strain between the need to give new people a chance to gain leadership experience and the need to have the most qualified person fill the position. There must be a balance between the two. I would say once a person has mastered a position they should certainly move on to new challenges, otherwise they have only a limited ability to challenge themselves (N.B. mastery and perfection should not be confused). In some cases it may be necessary to deviate from this for various reasons, either by staying in a position longer, or by moving on sooner. I would say for troop youth positions the balance slightly favors allowing someone new to learn and grow. In adult positions, the balance is more in favor of keeping a capable leader in a position. For OA officers, the proper balance is probably between those of troop youth and adult leadership positions. In all cases, even if you intend to train the person in the specific skills needed, no one should ever be placed in a position they don't posses the basic talents and potentials for.

Actually John, I think your reading is a bit off. I don't claim to be an expert but if you look at Sec 771 it says that no one can wear a military uniform unless otherwise provided for in law. Sec 772 then provides for the BSA to wear whatever uniform it chooses. So if the BSA decides to adopt the current uniform of the US Army, they are free to do so. They would, by my understanding, need to swap out all military insignia (including buttons on dress uniforms) for BSA insignia, but other than that the uniforms could be identical. In fact, in the early years, the uniforms were indistinguishable. During the First World War the BSA started wearing a distinctive hat emblem to make it clear to the public its members were not in fact soldiers. United States Code TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART II > CHAPTER 45 > Sec. 771. Sec. 771. - Unauthorized wearing prohibited Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear - (1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or (2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART II > CHAPTER 45 > Sec. 772. Sec. 772. - When wearing by persons not on active duty authorized (j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category: (1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.

I also must disagree with the comment about people wanting to play Army. For me at least, that has nothing to do with it. Instead, it has everything to do with wanting to have low cost, readily available, durable, multi-purpose equipment. The stuff works great in many outdoor applications. It can easily be used on while out hunting, fishing, or Scouting. Is military equipment optimal for Scouting? Not necessarily. Is it good equipment for Scouting? Often. Obviously, I do not approve of using military uniforms in place of Scout uniforms (though there could be some exceptions for extreme circumstances, I suppose). The Scout uniform should be worn as completely and correctly as possible. I also think most camo looks terrible when mixed with Scout uniform pieces. However, when not in uniform, if someone wants to wear the same pants they go hunting in that is fine by me. Even if in uniform, if they want to wear combat boots, or web gear to carry their stuff, or a field jacket to stay warm, that is fine with me. Several years back it was the norm for me to carry my two military canteens, in their military covers, on a military pistol belt. Now I usually go with a couple of Nalgene bottles in a day-pack, but I miss having the water available while walking and such. I still use the same old field jacket I have worn for years (old style solid green US Army issue). I also sometimes wear a OD green jungle hat (OK, I admit, I have worn the hat with the uniform, but that was only because the sun is hot as heck some places and my campaign hat just doesn't breath well enough in high humidity), but other than that, I haven't used much surplus equipment for Scouting purposes. I may get a surplus set of LBEs and go back to the old canteens. Or maybe I will go the weirdest fashion statement of all and use Nalgene bottles on an LBE...(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

Define "needs". Do you mean enough to survive, or the amount it would receive under ideal circumstances, or some other measure? If all that is required is that the unit is able to survive, then yes. If you apply any other measure, then NO. Let me provide an example. Last year our UC (we didn't know we even had a UC until the guy called the SM at home one night) called the SM and told him that he had our charter and that someone needed to come pick it up from him. The SM suggested he could just drop it off at a troop meeting, and that would give him a chance to meat the troop leaders. The UC then told him that he didn't have time for troop meetings, and that wasn't part of what he had agreed to do, and that further the DC told him the unit leaders would have to pick up their charters from him. It eventually came out that he had been holding onto the charter for a couple of months before he even bothered to contact anyone. Yep, that is about the way district support goes. I think part of the problem is, no one wants to do anything for the district. All the competent leaders currently in Scouting are up to their eyeballs in unit level stuff. No unit has any leaders to spare to move into district positions. The district hasn't had much luck in getting people outside of Scouting to help out either. Another example would be round table meetings. The district holds one round table per month. All programs share a single meeting. There is no actual program planned. All that is done is some informal talking, and sharing whatever the latest (meaning you needed it 3 weeks ago) information is. To make matters worse, often the district commissioner (who often runs round tables) is less than perfectly informed, so information about... say an upcoming camporree... has to be pieced together from what troop leaders have heard. Unfortunately most of the meeting will end up dealing with some trivial cub scout issue (such as a half hour argument on some pine wood derby rule). Little wonder most of the other leaders in my troop thought I was crazy for going to round table meetings. I soon realized it was a waste of my time and quit going.(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

My troop seems to avoid songs like the plague. It may have something to do with the overly cheery adult song leader we had a few years back that seemed to think we needed to learn a new song at every meeting. Everyone was quite glad when she got too busy with work related things to continue, because no one had the stomach to ask her to stop.

The weight limit for horses is 200lbs if I am not mistaken.

I must say that I have never really noticed a problem with hand washing before food preparation. People normally remember that. Just to make certain they are usually reminded. The problem is people not washing their hands before meals. The biggest reason for this I have seen is the lack of soap in most camp latrines. If there is soap, it is a nasty looking old bar that appears to have recently been in the latrine, if you know what I mean. The other problem is there are some latrines at some camps with no running water. For camps with dining halls, there usually is no provision for washing hands immediately before meals. Possible solutions to these problems: Install a liquid soap dispenser at each latrine. Or, better yet, have each troop bring a bar of soap, a nylon stocking, a nail, and a hammer to create a handy latrine soap dispener. Create a hand wash station using a bucket with a valve or cork installed. Build hand wash stations (complete with running water and soap) outside all the main entrances to the dining hall. If hand washing facilities/equipment are readily available, people are more likely to use them. Another option my troop has sometimes used, is to have one of the adults bring a bottle of hand sanitizer to every meal, just in case someone forgot to wash their hands.

Part of me wants to jump for joy that issues and politics has gotten back to what it used to be. Another part of me feels ill.

I am glad to see you got better. Now lets go see if the spiral scouts weigh the same as a duck...

Distinctive paint and decals can go a long way in preventing theft. They also provide easy public recognition on the road and at campsites and such. Our troop's trailer is red. We had a set of decals made by a sign company to the specs of a graphic artist in the unit. The decals are in white and blue, and look very nice to say the least. No one in their right mind would try to steal something so easy to spot. Usually for an anti-theft system we keep a padlock on the hitch to keep anyone from opening it easily. Now we happen to be in KY, and if I am not mistaken, we do have a license plate on the trailer. I also seem to remember all, or at least most, of my dad's boat trailers have had plates over the years. The things may not be required, but it is probably not a bad idea.

So it seems that officially tenure is calculated based on how long that unit has been chartered at a given CO. It also seems that there is some latitude given for local interpretation on such things as the anniversary strips.

OK. Somehow I must have missed on of Shell's posts until now. I don't know quite how that happened, but it did. Therefore, I did not properly understand the context of this situation until now. Sorry for any trouble that may have caused. I would agree that everything in this particular case seems perfectly legal. The website involved was simply providing information. The person giving the pack away was the one engaging in discrimination, and was within their rights to do so. I still, however, maintain the argument that if this had been a company giving away the backpack, it would not have had the right to discriminate against someone for being a BSA member. Now FOG, I feel certain the Unitarians would let them in. They don't seem to mind if their members are reality challenged. Speaking of being reality challenged, how precisely does someone not believe in the Boy Scouts? That is sort of like not believing in trees or fish. It doesn't really make much sense, but I guess people are free to think whatever they want. On the other hand, if he doesn't believe in the values of the BSA, or he doesn't believe in the policies of the BSA, that would at least be a rational position. However, I really can't see how it hurts the Boy Scouts to refuse to donate to a canned food drive. The only people that hurts are the hungry.

I wonder why the valve isn't made a permanent part of the tank, in the same way the valves are built into the small propane cylinders. This reminds me of something I heard about involving an aerosol can...

I have yet to get and LED. I had a bad experience with head lamps early in my Scouting Carree. An adult in the troop loved them and made very good use of them, so I went and got one. I never really liked the thing. Once all the LEDs started coming out, my general thoughts were, "oh, neat, but too expensive". Then the prices started coming down and people actually started buying the things. I still haven't bought one because none of them really seems to produce as much light as I like. Also, all of the ones I have seen are far nearer to blue than white. I am really not a fan of blue light. It seems all it is good for is blinding people. However, all of you can't be wrong, so perhaps I will look into it. I still like my MAGs. I keep a mini-MAG in my book-bag, one in my apartment, and one in the center console of my car. I also keep a 4-D cell MAG in my trunk. For things like organizing a tent, or setting up camp, I have a Coleman battery powered lantern with a pair of 4" fluorescent tubes. It would be great if MAG would come up with a LED conversion kit for their lights.

A while back there was talk of Venturers at the National Jamboree. The conclusion was that Jambo is a part of the Boy Scout program. Now back in 1997, I was at Jambo as a visitor. I distinctly remember there being uniformed Law Enforcement Explorers on site as part of the staff. I also recall at least one article from Boys Life that talked about the Law Enforcement Explorers at Jambo. Now that would seem to be a precedent for including others outside of the Boy Scout program at the Jamboree. Another point, it seems to me (and I could be wrong because I wasn't around back then), that way back when, Exploring was more or less the natural next step after Boy Scouts, in more or less the same way that Boy Scouts is the natural next step after Cub Scouts. I may perhaps be wrong, but it seems that this was the case for at least some period of time. It also seems this probably came to an end as Exploring shifted its focus from Scouting to a focus on specific things like various careers. Now Venturing is I think regaining some sense of being this natural 3rd step, but it certainly was not seen that way when it started in 1998, and it still has a very long way to go before anyone fully accepts it as the such.

(This probably isn't going to work, but it is worth a try.) Merlyn, Would you not agree that in many, if not most cases businesses are required to provide goods and services to the public, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of any individual member of the public? I would agree with you that if it is an individual giving something away, they are perfectly within their rights to refuse to give the thing away to Scouts. In the case of a business, which, lacking evidence to the contrary, I would assume is a public accommodation, it does not normally have that right. Shell, While common sense shows that atheism is not a religion, but rather the lack (or perhaps refusal) thereof, the courts are in no way required to use anything that even approaches common sense. Instead, the courts have decided that freedom of religion includes the right to be free from religion. That has of coarse produced some wacky court rulings, including one that held religious materials to be potentially more harmful to certain individuals than pornography. (It didn't actually make that comparison, if memory serves, rather it just applied a stricter standard to religious materials and their use than it did to pornography in another case.) So, we live in a country where, by the dictates of the Politburo... er... I mean the courts, atheism is just as much a religion as Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, or any of the others.

packsaddle, Thank you for agreeing with me. I also find no reason why the UU fellowships/churches couldn't charter a BSA unit AS LONG AS THEY AGREE TO FOLLOW THE MEMBERSHIP POLICIES. The point I was making was that a UU group would not be very likely agree to those rules, as it pertains to atheists. Remember, we aren't talking about the garden club, we are talking about a religious, or at least quasi-religious group. Accepting atheists is a part of their system. It is unlikely they would charter a unit that requires them to not accept them in some way.

If the UUA are not willing to abide by the rules relating to homosexuals, I seriously doubt they would be willing to abide by the rules on atheists, particularly when they also have atheists as members. It may have been that the homosexual issue was the straw that broke the camels back for the UUA, but I seriously doubt they would now agree to the membership policies, even if the homosexual rules were repealed. I am not basing this on some secret knowledge of the UUA, but rather on common sense.

Anyone that is in favor of more environmentally friendly energy or in favor of energy independence should actually like OPEC raising its prices. KS hit on some of the reasons why, as have others. If the cost of importing oil goes up, domestic producers will increase production. Generally it is more expensive to produce oil domestically, so some of those previously uneconomic wells, such as those in western KY for example, begin to become economical to pump again. Further, incentives for finding and exploiting other sources of domestic oil also increase. The economic viability of such things as bio-diesel and ethanol will increase as the costs of oil increase. These fuels are produced domestically from renewable sources such as corn. As gas prices go higher, consumers are more likely to take advantage of mass transit. Mass transit is normally safer, more environmentally friendly, and more fuel efficient than personal automobiles. Consumers are also more likely to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles. It also begins to become economical to buy the more complex fuel saving devices such as hybrid gas-electric vehicles when fuel prices go higher. The incentive to find new alternative sources of energy to replace oil increases as the cost of using oil increases. The incentives to developer and implement fuel saving technologies increases with gas prices. The likely hood that same entrepreneur, garage tinkerer, or major corporate research facility will find some new breakthrough technology to save fuel or the environment increases with gas prices. Personally I think we should do two things with the people in charge of OPEC. We should first thank them for making it more economically viable to replace them as a source of energy. Second, we should lock them all up for price fixing, collusion, and any of the other various anti-competitive and monopolistic practices that they openly flaunt.

Eagledad, I would suggest that the SPL that is no longer challenged by the duties of being the SPL was ready to move on to some new challenge. Perhaps it was time for him to seek out something such as an OA office, for example. Also, another good position for those that have reached that stage would be Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. It is almost custom made for the type of person you mentioned. Now if that 17 year old really wanted to be SPL because he thought is was the best way he could serve the troop, well great for him. However, I would think someone who has mastered the top youth leadership position in the troop would be more useful being a full time leadership developer rather than a leadership doer, if you get what I mean.

The BSA can not adapt to every belief system and every set of personal opinions. BSA is an organization based on common principals and shared beliefs. If it tries to adapt its principals and beliefs to be acceptable to the beliefs and opinions of all people it will in the end no longer have any shared beliefs at all. I would rather the BSA have some very rare and narrow "sectarian" exclusions than try to meet the needs and wants of all the various beliefs and opinions held by anyone. I don't know about the Wiccans, but I know with the UUA there would be more than just the homosexual issue at stake. UUA fellowships accept any religious or non-religious beliefs. So the duty to God in the Oath and the 12th point of the law are problems for the UUA even if there was no homosexual issue. What would be the point in having the 12th point of the law and the duty to God if we become so "non-sectarian" that we must accept even those who fully reject the idea of a higher power and reject also any religious obligations? It is obvious that both the Oath and the Law are of far greater importance than any statement of religious principals the BSA may create. Further, the use of the term "non-sectarian" is actually quite interesting. Given American history it would not be all together beyond possibility to interpret that to mean not giving preference to any of the Christian sects. In fact if this had been written in the 18 or 19th centuries it would be almost impossible to escape such an interpretation. Now that obviously isn't the way BSA intends it at this point, but it is still interesting that is wording used. The Catholic Church for example would completely reject the idea that it is either a sect or denomination. (Actually the Church more or less rejects the idea of denominations of Christianity entirely.) Instead the Catholic Church is just that, a church. (Its own opinion is that it is THE Church, but obviously BSA can't cater to that view, because that would be a preference for Catholicism.)

You offer good sound advice, and I thank you for it. I am by no means as depressed as I sound. That was just sort of a cummulative list of discouraging things from the past year and a half or so that are somewhat generic. Like anything else there are depressing days and then there are uplifting days. Then there are days that have some of both and other days that are just sort of bland and have neither. I suppose that has always been the case with life. The prime challenge is to keep moving even on the bad days. That is far easier when you have what I (not on original concept, I borrowed it from some one but I don't remember who) call a support network in place. That support network contains all the various supporting relationships with friends and family. (For these supporting relationships to work, at least for me, there has to be some sort of interaction, otherwise it really isn't much of a relationship.) It also covers our relationship with God, our faith, and various religious activities. Further, we have the ability to self support when we have goals, dreams, or ambitions in mind. When any of those thigns are missing it seems to have a bit of a negative impact, least for me. When most of them are missing, as has sometimes seemed the case the last 18 months or so, it can cause some problems, at least for me. It becomes easier to fall down, and harder to get back up again. (I read once that the Army special forces training includes a section on evaluating the ability of the individual to function without a support network. They have the person do what seems to be a never ending serious of tedious tasks with no apparent purpose or goal, and they do it alone and cut off from human contact so that they can see what happens to them.) Anywase, hope springs eternal, whenever I am feeling down something always seems to come along to brighten things up a bit, like the unusually pleasant (though allergy inducing) weather. Just when it starts to seem that I can't tell the difference between one day and the next, something different comes along like a camporree or a conclave to change things up a bit. Ultimately, however, most of my problems seem to come back to one core problem. I don't know where I am going or what I am really doing. Since I don't know what I certainly can't even begin to figure out why I am doing anything or how to go about getting to the destination. I have used every method I know to determine the way to go, and none seem to really stand out as holding any more promise than the others. Every so often I manage to scratch a posibility off the list as I figure out that I am not good at something, or don't like something, or I am just not the type of person that would be best at something else, but at the rate I am going, I doubt I will ever get that list of possibilities down to one choice. So, I suppose I will have to go ahead despite all my doubts. In the end I will have to choose something to stick with, and if it is the right thing, well great, and if it is the wrong thing, I guess there isn't much that can be done about that.

The worst problem is not knowing wear you want to go. You obviously can't choose a path if you don't even know where it is you want to end up. I have to some extent been faced by this problem of late. I realized I really have no capacity for figuring out what I want to do. I was always used to figuring out what I needed or had to do, and then how to do it. That is pretty simple. Then all of a sudden, life stops having a clear path. There is no longer a graduation plan to follow. Instead there are hundreds degrees, thousands of colleges, and an infinite number of careers to choose from. When people ask me what I want to do, I really don't have clue how to answer them. When I was young I used to tell people I wanted to be a doctor. Since then I have discovered that I don't like blood and other doctor related things. (Plus it would be almost impossible for someone in my position to ever get into med school. Once I could have set out on that path and made it, but that path isn't even on the same continent any more.) When I was a bit older I told people I either wanted to be a astronaut or a garbage man. The astronaut was the dreamer in me. I wanted to do something exciting, to be some sort of hero, and to go where no one has gone before. The garbage men was based solely on the fact that even in the worst of weather the local garbage men always seemed to be smiling and happy. Now I don't really know. I went through a phase where I thought I might be some great inventor or scientist or engineer. I went through a phase where I thought I might be some great political leader and make change for the better. I even once thought it would be cool to be some great military hero. Now I don't know. I feel like I am lost in the wilderness and that everything I do to find my way just gets me more lost. I keep thinking maybe I have found an answer, but then the closer I get, the more it seems to be just an illusion. I guess in the back of my mind I always expected God to somehow let me know what I was supposed to do. That someday it would just be clear that "this is what I need to do". Now I don't think I will ever know for certainty what God or anyone else intended for me, unless it is to spend my life searching for direction, reason, and purpose without ever finding answers but instead finding more questions. To make matters worse, at just the moment a person if faced with such concerns, all the familiar things in life go away. Friends go off to other places leaving you without even so much a a familiar person to eat lunch with. Favorite activities and clubs are left behind. Even the church changes. No longer is there a familiar parish with familiar people, and customary ways of doing things, but instead there is a drab subterranean concrete interfaith center with new ways of doing things and more people you don't know. The cozy home town where everyone seems to know someone who knows everyone else, where you know what the best shoe store and Chinese restraint are without question, and where you feel at home, is replaced by a great metropolitan area full of road rage filled drivers and so many people that it is impossible to even know the names of all the neighborhoods, let alone the people that live in them. Family is left behind only to be seen or spare weekends and heard from on the telephone. Extended family formerly seen every couple of weeks is now seen perhaps twice a year at major holidays. Almost everything friendly, familiar, and comforting, is replaced by something antiseptic, cold, and unknown. Then of coarse about this time things start to happen that can make a person question core beliefs. You start to wonder about your politics and religion. You start to think that your conception of reality (which seemed troubled enough before) is nothing but a fictitious Utopian ideal. Then of coarse you begin to study some subject of interest (political science), where you think perhaps you can make a difference, only to discover that the tide is against you and growing stronger. I for one have little hope for myself. I no longer expect to do great things. I don't expect to be remembered by history. I doubt I can even make much of difference in the unseen workings of life. I don't expect riches or a life filled with pleasant diversions. I also don't have much confidence that even if any of my ideas and ideals are right, that I shall long hold them uncorrupted and undiluted. I also have little hope for much of anything else I am a part of. I don't see much hope in the future of America, or any other nation now on the earth. The politics and philosophy that I think hold the greatest promise are losing too many battles, and I think have already lost the war, though there will be many battles yet. I don't have much hope in the institutions of religion, for all seem to be becoming week, or fanatical to the extreme, and the followers are beginning to go astray. So the present seems bleak, and the future far bleaker to me. Yet despite all this, I do not give in to utter despair. I have hope because I trust that in the end God's Will shall be done. I know that even through what is bad, God can find a way to bring good. I also trust that there is much that I do not know or understand, and that perhaps what I see as a bad path will in the end turn out to be a good one. (This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

Charging for meeting space? Yep, the world has gone nuts. I can understand a place charging outside groups for space, but charging your own groups doesn't make any sense. That is robbing Peter to pay Paul, at best. I would suggest anyone in such a situation find out if you can reach an agreement to use facilities at off peak times and provide all cleaning services yourself. If you aren't keeping them from getting rent, and you are not bringing them any extra expense other than lighting, you may be able to work something out. It would at least be worth a try. All this said, it could be worse. Over spring break I was talking with a leader from another troop in my home town. The church and the troop in that case have had an on/off sort of relationship. I get to hear info from both ends since I know the troop leaders and one of the ministers at the church plays in my mom's bridge group. The church was apperently approached by the government to locate a head start program for spanish speaking immigrant children in their facility. Essentially the deal was that the church would provide the space, and in return the government would provide funds to upgrage the parts of the facilities used primarily for this program, and pay all the operational costs of the program. Now of coarse it doesn't take a rocket scientest to realise that a church giving up it facilities to a goverment program is probably not a good long term idea for all sorts of reasons. Now this affects the Scouts because the space being used for this is what had been the Cub Scout and Boy Scout meeting and storage rooms. The unit leaders recieved notice about the project and were told they had a month to move their stuff and find a way to schedule the meetings in other parts of the building. Then one of the unit leaders happened to run into the pastor about 4 days after they first recieved notice. He apperently commented, "well I guess you guys are moved already" to which the unit leader asked why he thought that. The response was that work was starting the next day. So the unit leader made a quick trip to the meeting place and removed all troop equipment, some of which is now stored in a trailer, and other parts are in the guys garage. When the troop enquired about meeting space, they chuch told them they could use the room on the cubs had been moved too. The problem was the two units both meet on the same night. The church then suggested they could alternate and meet every other week. Obvisouly this is not good. Last I heard the troop had found a room that appeared to be vacant and are simply using it for their meetings, even though the church claims there are no available rooms. I suppose whatever group uses that room will probably turn up and be upset sometime soon.

I learn something new every day. This is the first I had ever heard of such a thing. I guess my council must not be into this, but then again what can you expect from a council that doesn't bother to use proper accounting procedures or pay its taxes. While I am not familiar with the award, based on what I have just read I must say the idea of counting an OA ordeal as a troop camping trip is... I think I will go with "novel" to be diplomatic.