mk9750

sctldr, Yes, everyone has been trained, although all of the adults, me included, have really only received the bare minimum. there will be a major effort to upgrade our adult training in 2003. ALL of the youth leaders are trained, and some have served on Council JLT staff. As a matter of fact, JLT is really how we compare our boys's skills with boys from other troops. At the meeting this weekend, we do exactly what you are describing, although it is a more core group of involved adults, not the full committee (SM, ASM, Advancement). We absolutely try to guide the SPL toward more appropriate events, especially during the annual planning meeting the PLC does in the spring. But we made a decision we would not stop any activity, as long as it met minimum criteria for safety, etc. Our attitude was to allow them to plan boring stuff, see the mistake, help them see it if necesary, and allow them to fix it. However, rather than fix it, anyone older than 2nd year in the troop generally just don't go. We certsainly point out the flaws, and make sure the guys know the results. It also should be mentioned that often there are very legitimate reasons for some older scouts not going. But as soon as Pete says he isn't going, Joey and Tommy see the chance to skip, too. Once a few of these guys sign off, the couple who might want to go figure, "oh man, I'm gonna be stuck with a bunch of young kids", and they pass, too. One idea we thought would work is to get the guys to plan patrol only campouts. This has helped for the young patrols, who still are interested in learning and experiencing the basics in camping. But the older guys end up planning sleep overs, or trips to the car show. Not that these are bad, but we hope for more "Scouting" type activities: Campouts, hikes, stuff like that. We believe we are guiding the boys. We don't think we are forcing them. Can I read into your reply we should be more forceful? By the way, the bullwhipping happened years ago. I couldn't tell for sure if you understood that. Thanks! Mark

See, I told you that all of you were a great resource! Thanks! Mark

I'm just adding this so that I can click on the "notified when reply" button. Mark

Our core adult leadership met this weekend to discuss what was needed to be presented at our troop committee meeting. When we do this, we invite the SPL, who represents the PLC. They plan the next two months in detail, and the following 2-4 months in outline form. After he presented this work from the PLC, all of us, including the SPL, started questioning some of the changes that our troop have been going through the last two years. We all agree that our troop has become less involved in standard, outdoor camping. We opt for adirondacks or cabins far too often. With the exception of a few very good high venture things we do (and do well, I believe), monthly campouts have become activities for the younger guys. Trying to get the older guys to go to teach, encourage, and be an example to the young guys is getting to be impossible. We believe we are seeing a decline in our Scout skills, some of which we attribute to the lack of enthusiasm for the program. The program we have always been so proud of, producing the best (most skilled) scouts in the area, is starting to slip. The most obvious correlation we can draw is with the active effort we as adults have been making to allow, actually require, the boys to choose and run their own program, which started about three years ago. Then, our Scoutmaster (the same as now) basically decided what each month's activity would be. He phrased everything so that it was the boys deciding, officially, our program. But he did it, and he bull whipped the boys into getting done what needed done to make the event come off great. I want to be careful and not make our Scoutmaster appear less than he is. He believed for a long time this was the best way to do things. Eventually, on his own and with some help from others, he understood that the program was not really boy led at that point. But whatever we did then, it was sucessful, everyone had fun and understood the value, boys advanced, they learned, they practiced. Outwardly, we were the troop all other troops envied (at least this is my perception). Once he started turning over control to the boys, things started changing. Things went undone, and the results were greeted by an "oh well" from the boys. Fewer and fewer older scouts came on campouts, unless it was a high venture activity. Usually, this was because the younger guys weren't there. And the activities that got planned were getting more lame. A cabin campout where we watched movies, when the same campout used to be a winter camping skills campout. Skipping a bike campout we used to do in favor of a campout in adirondacks. Avoiding stuff like utensiless cooking. Opting for simple, prepared foods instead of cooking. We never were like this. Please don't get me wrong. I believe that boy run is best run. But we ARE losing something, and none of us like it. We discussed what might have caused this, and we've rejected the idea that this is a growing pain caused by the transistion. It's getting worse, not better. We think it's mostly a change in the type boy we have. Scouts who have graduated from the troop 2 - 6 years ago would never stand for hot dogs and beans if we had the time to make a "real" meal. Does anyone have any words of wisdom as to how to counteract this? We have no intention of backing away from boy led. But what the boys want to do isn't nearly as valuable as what adults used to plan, and that is evidenced by boys not attending what THEY planned. I am open to anything, even if it means someone has to be a little rough on me and point out a weakness that I don't see. Again, as always, thank all of you for being there. What a fantastice resource each of you are. Mark

I make no claim that the way we do it is right... What is considered class A uniforms are required at anything that is considered a meeting. Troop meetings, Courts of Honor, Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review. We consider class A to be every part of the uniform except the hat. MB sashes are not required at troop meetings. During the summer, we permit the SPL to declare Troop meetings only to be class B: any scout related shirt (most often our Troop tee or polo, or a summer camp tee). No BSA pants etc. are required. Full class A's are still required for Scoutmaster conferences, etc. We also require full class A's (minus the sash) for travelling to and from activities. As soon as a scout has his tent erected, he may change into any appropriate clothing. If we are hiking, full uniform to the trailhead, then hung and left in the car until the ride home. We also require BSA shirts only for dinner at campouts. The only exception we make is for boys coming from other activities and arriving during the meeting. Usually these are sports, and it seems silly to us to ask a dirty boy to change into a clean uniform. We'd rather have him there than going home becuase he isn't dressed right. Mark

We have just gone through this excercise in our Troop. Our Council Service Center only requires the New Scout Application marked "transfered" and $1.00 if the boy is transfering within the council. If he is coming from outside the council, transfer paperwork listing his advancements is required. From within the council, advancement records follow the boy from Troop to Troop, so no transfer paperwork other than the application is needed. For the new Troop, either some type of advancement record (easily generated from Troopmaster or other Scouting software) would be helpful. Without such, the new Troop will either have to contact the old Troop to determine advancement status, or trust what the boy's Handbook says. In either case, although no formal communication is required, courtesy has to require that a boy who wants to transfer (or quit, in my opinion) MEET with the Scoutmaster to discuss the issue. Certainly, things change to make the experience a boy is having in a Troop deteriorate. But the Scoutmaster should be given the oppurtunity to know what is wrong so that he can fix it before others feel the effect. I believe a parent who does not require this of their son does him a disservice. Boys should not be permitted to believe that they can retreat from anything without explaining why. Mark

We've had an Eagle Scout in our Troop who made 2nd team all state in his sport. Did he miss activities? Yes. Did we miss him at meetings and campouts? Yes. Did his absence ruin his Scouting experience, or that of others in his patrol or troop? Absolutely not. He participated as much as he could during the season, and when the season was over, Scouts beame his #1 priority. We've got another guy who just made Eagle. Played football and wrestled, although through four years on both teams, I don' think he ever started. But he gave those sports everything he had during the season. When he wasn't wresting or playing football, he was among the better SPLs we've had, and has done a great job for more than a year as the JASM in charge of our Troop JLT, and on staff 3 years for Council JTL. We've got 1/2 dozen kids in the band program. Marching band means none of them get to campouts in the fall until Saturday morning, if they're close enough, and winter concert band has mandatory practices on our Troop meeting night. Two of these guys are Eagle (actually, one is waiting for his BOR), and two more are likely to be in the next year or so. My point is that there are other priorities in boys life than Scouts: Sports, band, jobs, girls, cars, scholastics, etc. Maybe it's unofficially, but I think that's one of the requirments for advanced ranks in Scouts: Prioritizing what is important for each boy. Let's face it, it won't be any easier for a guy once he get out of Scouts. College seems to have a way of making a kid have to prioritize, too. And so does adult life. Balancing Scouting with everything else a boy has going is good experience. And those who are likely to be succesfull learn early how to pull off this trick. But I certainly agree with Bob. If a program is enticing to boys, it becomes easier for a boy to chose Scouts over other activities, or at least want to balance them. A poor program gives a boy an easy way to convince himself, and others, that something else is more important. Mark

Instead of contacting thesongofthesouth.com, I put the tape in the VCR. Watched the first 10 minutes. The quality was much worse the any knock off Rolex watch I ever saw. For anyone who cares, my opinion is that the tape I received is pirated. Unless someone can convince me that it is not, I won't be watching the rest of it. Which is sad. The first 10 minutes had me fondly remembering seeing this movie when I was in grammer school. Mark

I am dipping my toe in water with which I am VERY unfamiliar, so forgive me if I am wrong, but... My wife works in a hospital in an area that is more diagnostic than care giving. She is in contact with patients all day long, both in house and out patients. She was told she has no right to know the medical status of a patient. Medical Right to privacy trumps the right of the health care worker. Universal precautions expected of health care workers, to be used in every instance of patient contact, should be sufficient to protect both the worker and the patient. since Universal protection is the norm at hospitals, etc., although I disagree with the policy, it seems at least reasonable. In Scouting, however, universal precautions are not taught or enforced as policy. And even if they were, the likelihood that a scout would be able to produce protective equipment while administering first aid to a fellow scout who was hurt in capture the flag is extremeely low. I'll bet even the most stringent of Scoutmasters in this forum don't require that Scouts carry their first aid kit with them when they play capture the flag. Noting the differences in the two organizations, and how each are likely to encounter any victim, common sense to me says that even if it is acceptable to withold medical information from health care workers as a matter of privacy because standard operating procedures protect everyone, it is vital that the troop know the condition of a boy with HIV because SOPs do not protect everyone in the instance of a Boy Scout event. I'll use one other analogy. We have a boy who is EXTREMELY allergic to peanuts. When he joined, his mother told us, gave us an EPI pen, showed us how to use it in case it was needed, and asked that the boys in the troop not be told, so no one treated her son differently. This seemed like a reasonable request to us, so we complied. First campout, the Troop Guide planned the meals for the new patrol to cook. Desert was a cobbler that includes nuts. You can fill in the rest. It's a good thing we were shown how to use the EPI pen, and it's a good thing the Troop Guide had a brother who is allergic to bee stings, because he recongnized the symptoms immediately and came and got us. Disaster was averted, but could have been prevented if the Scout who planned the meals knew the situation. The mom realized quite quickly that maybe it would be OK if everyone knew. BTW, it's actually been kind of cool to see how the kids get creative when they want to make something that usually needs nuts. It's one of those troop inside jokes now, and we (including the boy) have a lot of fun with it. I know that can't be compared to having HIV. But I certainly believe there is a correlation between one situation and the other. Mark

I really have done an about face on this issue. I am, and always have been, dead set against tatoos, and males wearing earings. Tatoos because they are so permenant, and both because those who generally are in a position to help you or hinder you in life are usually "establishment" types, who tend to look at such adornment with disdain. Therefore, I have alsways supported our Scoutmaster, who has banned visible displays of both within our troop. I still think that neither are not in the best interest of a boy, but I now think that this is enough of an unimportant issue that it isn't our place to insert our values on the boys about this particular subject. I think wearing this stuff is the wrong thing to do. But just because I think it's wrong, does that make it wrong for everyone? I wish, but I know it ain't so. Believe me, I'll still give a boy my opinion about it, but I am no longer willing to stop a kid from partaking in Scouts becuse I think he looks ridiculous. No one stops me when I wear shorts (and believe me, that's more silly looking than an earing in a boy!). I do agree with the ban of earings during activities that could be unsafe. Mark

I received my copy of Follow Me Boys from thesongofthesouth.com yesterday. Although it looks like a new tape, the artwork on the box makes it look like it may be less than an original release. When I ordered it, I never even gave a thought to the fact it might not be a legitimate tape. Puts me in a real quandry: I preach all the time, especially to my own boys and to scouts, that Copyright infringement is not only illegal, but truly is wrong. Although I am going to try to determine through thesongofthesouth.com if this is a legitimate tape or not, and if it's not, if they'll take it back, I certainly will not play it. Looks like I might have thrown away $30.00. It really ticks me off that I never though about this!! Mark

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. Thank you for the gifts you all give: The chance that the world will be a better place because you spend time with, and nurture boys while they become men. I am proud to know every single one of you, even if it is only electronically. I hope someday our paths will cross in real life. Mark

You know, it's kind of funny you tell that story. We had a boy this past year cross to another troop, even though his brother was ASPL of our troop, and his father is an ASM. No one could understand this, and we were VERY concerned that this was an indication something was wrong. We finally got the answer: This boy had lived in the "scouting" shadow of his brother and father for 5 years. He wanted to strike out on his own, to be his own scout. He asked his dad to come on a campout or two with his troop, but NOT to register as a leader there. It's been a little hectic for the family. Of course, meetings are on different nights, and events never seem to coordinate to make things easy for the family. But we speak to the boy once in a while, as well as his family, still with us. They all think that this was the best decision that could have been made regarding scouting. But the things that are best about each troop kind of get introduced at the other. I know we've added a couple of things that came from the other troop. We'd love to have the younger brother, but he's really enjoying his experience the way it is now. Worked out great! Mark

pack38scouter: Looks like we said the same thing at about the same time. I hope that can be taken as a sign it might have some value! I looked at your checklist in the other thread. It is very good. I do disagree with the statement about the size of the troop that is best. There are plenty of smaller and larger troops that are good too. In general, it probably is difficult to run a good program with less than 20 boys, but it's not impossible. As far as more boys goes, our experience is that we become a completely different troop with every 10 boy increase we have. It requires our junior leaders to view things differently to make the meetings, campouts, and program applicable to a larger number of interests. We tend to struggle the first couple of months whenever our roster increases by more than 10. After that, we settle into a comfort zone. We are doing very well right now with 50 boys. I think it's a little inaccurate to say the ideal size is 20 - 30. But the main point you made is that competition is good. And with that, I heartily agree! Mark

We have a simliar situation in our area. We do have a little brother pack, but it is so weak that by the time kids are 10 - 11, there is almost none left in the pack. They find other things to occupy their time. We have the same attitude you do: It is vital to our existence that we get an infusion of at least 4-6 boys every year, because our method of "see one, do one, teach one" requires that our second your boys have first year boys to teach. Before I started with the Troop, our current Scoutmaster was concerned that we were circling the drain (9 boys in the troop). He did exactly what you are considering. Actually, he was quite a bit more agressive about it. He contacted all of the Cubmasters and each of the 2nd year Webelos leaders from about 8 packs in our area. He laid out what the current troop was like, what his vision of it for the future was, and the pros and cons of their Webelos considering out Troop. He converted our regular winter cabin campout to a recruiting campout. The boys in the troop each adopted a scout skills topic, learned it inside out, up and down, and had them teach these, along with games and contests, to the Webelos and their dads, who were invited to come out on Friday night, or Saturday morning. The boys also cooked top notch meals (smoked turkey and pork roast, mashed potatoes and biscuits from scratch, etc.). The scouts served over 100 people the first time we did this. And we did a court of Honor on Saturday night, where we recognized the Webelos and their "patrols" with awards for their performance in the skills contests (although we didn't have contests for the woods tools section, we did "suspend" the whittlin' chit and totin' chit requirements and allowed the boys to use woods tools under supervision, which might have been the most well received activity by the boys). He asked all of the dads of the current scouts to come, and mingle with the dads of the webelos. We have done this same campout every year for the last 8. We're down to 5 packs that we invite. A couple just wouldn't send any boys, and one has a cubmaster who doesn't like our scoutmaster, so they won't even give us contact information for the webelos leaders. And our pack only sends 1 or 2 each year, if that. The results: We get between 6 and as many as 12 boys a year cross to our troop, and we've tracked as best we can, and we are seeing about 75% of the boys who go on this campout cross somewhere. With the growth we have had (we're up to close to 50 boys now. The original 9, plus the 4 of the 12 who crossed over after the first year of doing this, are now graduated out of the troop {9 of 13 made Eagle} so we've crossed and kept an average of 7 boys a year), we realized we had to do something to slow it down a little. So last year we started inviting other troops to adopt one of the skill stations, to make short presentations at the Court of Honor, and set up tables to promote their troop. This was looked at with aprehension by the scoutmasters the first year, but I think we are starting to do a better job of convincing other troops' leaders that our intention is noble. We can't continue taking every scout we convince to cross to scouting. We're just not good enough to continue growing that big that fast. But we need to do the event for both the oppurtunity to teach the webelos, and to get some new guys every year. We now see ourselves as THE way Webolos in our area are recruited to Boy Scouts. Many will want to come to our Troop. But some others catch the fever of Boy Scouting, and hook up with other troops. We believe that it is the best interest of our troop to help other troops be strong. Competition is good. It makes everyone better. Will other Scoutmasters see you as a villian? Yes, probably at first. But IMHO, you're doing them a favor. Offer Webelos a great program as an alternative to what they have traditionaly had. You'll get some of those guys. As you get a few more, it'll build on itself. at some point, the other scoutmasters will recognize they need to get better to get their share, for their own good. That means not only will your boys benefit, but so will boys who chose other troops. Good luck to you. It can be done, and I think you shouldn't worry too much about other troops' feelings. In the long run, you'll be helping them, too. Mark

In our Troop, our troop youth leadership is almost always boys from our "honor patrol". This patrol is made of of older scouts who have distinguished themselves. Usually it is by participating in High Venture activities, or being exemplary scouts, or having served well as a patrol leader, then moved to the honor patrol. This patrol does exist as a real patrol: They have a P/L, APL, a ASM who acts as a mentor. They plan their own events, create their own duty roster for campouts (their duty roster includes a rotating schedule for each of them to spend a couple of hours of the campout teaching and / or testing younger scouts). There usually are between 6 and 10 guys in this patrol at any one time, although with the older guys, other commitments tend to keep attendence at campouts to 5 - 7. Membership is by invitation (which I have to say, I was against when I joined the troop, thinking it was a recipe for cliques and hurt feelings. But it really works well. Most boys use potential membership to motivate themselves.) The only problem comes up when their PL is elected to a troop position, but either that person serves in both jobs (P/L and APL for this patrol are fairly simple jobs: The older guys pretty much run themselves by consesus), or a new P/L is elected within the patrol. We have 12 guys in the patrol now, but 3 are staring at their 18th birthday, so the population will be going down soon. It is likely 1 guy will be added in Feb. and 2 more in September. It isn't the only way to handle this issue, but it works great for us. Good luck! Mark

I am absolutely CERTAIN I know what I am bringing on myself by posting this, but.. IS woodbadge really this good? I've never had the desire to even investigate it bcause every time I've heard our locals talking about it, it seems less like training that will help deliver a better program for the boys, and more like Scouting for adults. Not that I have any problem with pretending to be a boy scout, but given the choice of spending time pursuing my own fun, and working directly with the boys, I'll take the latter any day. But, I have to say, with so many of you heatily endorsing WB, maybe I should get more info and check it out. this is my first visit to this section of the forums. Maybe I'll learn more as I read on. If you have anything that will make me see that my perception is out of whack, please post. Mark

Shemgren, Where did you get the statistic on average age for Eagle? I'm not questioning it. As a matter of fact, our troop's experience is about the same. But much of the conversation I see on the topic of age for Eagle (both on this forum and locally) make it seem like 15 1/2 - 16 is average. If you have any real stats, I'd love to see them, because I think you're right. Koreascouter, Everytime I read one of your posts, I develop a higher level of respect for you. You always take the most pragmatic position on questions and issues, and you leave no doubt as to your commitment to the boys in your troop, and scouting in general. Please keep posting. As to the question, I agree with everyone here. I think the only thing I can add is concerning his absence. Was he still a registered scout? If so, I believe he definately had a responsiblity to live the scout oath and law, and should be asked to address how he did so during his absence. And even if he was not registered, were I the Scoutmaster, I think I'd ask him to describe what he did to live up to them even when he wasn't a scout. Other than that, if he meets the requirements, he deserves Eagle. I would certainly set he and the ASM with whom he had a problem down to iron out any remaining animosity. Both deserve, and should be expected, to work things out. Mark

KWC57, Sounds like a plan. I say this only half sarcastically, but maybe the first question could be "Who does your website?" If it's a boy, there you go. If it's an adult, might be an indication that boy led patrols is just lip service. Our troop website was conceived and developed by a boy 4 years ago. He's made Eagle, moved on to college, and the job has been passed on to a number of boys, with varying degrees of sucess (from none to none, really). The guy who started it has been itching to take it back and get it up to date. I can't blame him, it's his baby. But we won't let him do it. As much as we used how terrific the site was when new as a tool, we use how poor it is now to show that the boys do the work and we live with the results. (A new parent in the troop, who is a Computer MB councilor, has agreed to take our webmaster under his wing. It'll get better now, I think. Although we've already had to ask the new guy to guide and teach, not do.) I know it seems weird, but I like it when our guys fail to meet their own expectations. They sure learn a lot more from it. I admit they don't have nearly the fun, but I think it's a fair trade when they also do quite a bit that works out great. Point is, maybe look at the failures as much as the successes. They might tell you something too. Mark

KWC57, Not only is it not too early, I think the timing is perfect! Especially if there is more than one troop to consider. Lots of things go into making this choice, as shown above. Few, if any, can be determined accurately with one visit to a troop. One of the biggest, I believe, is chemestry. If your son seems to get along with the boys whith whom he will associate, and with the adults in the troop, I think you're way ahead of the game. And troops have personalities, too. Some troops are very heavily weighted toward outdoor activities, even more than once a month. some are geared toward high venture. some prefer more cerebral activities. None of these are better or worse than the others, but your son's interest in hiking or rapelling, for instance, might mean he should steer away from the less active troops. Some troops do well "advertising" their personality, but some don't. To find out what they are like, more than one visit, and probably more than one outing will be needed to see. Good luck to you. I had more fun with my oldest son picking a troop when we were in Webelos than almost anything else we've done. Enjoy it! Mark

As an Advancement Chair, I think that this is one of the ways Advancement Chairs can be very helpful to Scouts and patrols as they tackle the cooking requirements. If someone (it is me in our troop, as we activley use Troopmaster software) tracks the progression of each of the boys in a patrol), he or she can assist the patrol leader whil making out duty rosters. The cooking requirements all build on each other. Boys working on Tenderfoot must gather and make fuel wood for a fire, and light a cooking fire. Boys working on 2nd class must assist a cook. And the boys working on 1st class have to lead the cooking activity. Even in the most strict environments, three boys can be responsible for these three functions on a campout, and, if done satisfactorily, be signed off. If the troop were to a bit more liberal, more than one could do the fire and assisting. But it takes someone to make sure the patrol leader takes this into account when doing the duty roster. Mark

Congratulations on a great start! If these are the biggest problems you have, you'll be way ahead of most of the rest of us! On the topic of missed awards - It happens sometimes. Our best efforts sometimes still come up short. Obviously, apoligizing to the boy has to be done, and I think he should get his award right away, or as soon as possilbe if it needs to be ordered. But at the next Pack meeting, he should get the same ceremony as the boys did last time. I find it goes easier for me when I admit in front of the whole group that it was my mistake. And as the Cubmaster, I would take the blame even if it was someone else's mistake. As evidenced by the reaction of the mom, reasonable people understand, as long as you own up, and fix the mistake. As far as the dues go, that's trickier. I beleive that some allowance should be made for those who can't afford it, and it might be reasonable to consider one dues amount for the family instead of for each boy. But it looks in this case that financial hardship is not the case here. If that is so, I would let the mom know what the dues are used for (assuming that they are used for legitemate activities), and advise her that without her family's dues, her boys will have to understand being excluded from whatever it is you use the dues for. I think that the boys should get any award earned (at least rank and arrow points - maybe not belt loops), but if dues are used to fund snacks, or a filed trip, for instance, the boys should be excluded. But make sure you keep an open mind to the possiblity that there is real financial hardship. It is very possible that she is working hard to cover up difficult money problems by making sure her children don't look different, etc. Keep up the good work!!! Mark

Ozemu, I think you have made some valuable points. As I composed my original comments, what I had in my mind actually adressed exactly what you say, but did a poor job translating it to paper. I did speak around it though, so let me explian. Assuming a boy is of the mind to get value out of Scouting (and I don't believe every boy is), there are many degrees of three possible types of troops. In the best, the boy and the troop are a great match, and each gets great value from its association with the other. The opposite exists when there is absolutely no value to either scout or troop by belonging to a specific troop. This obviously is rare. The third possiblity is everything in between. For boys in this situation, where not everything is perfect, a decision must be made as to both how much effort one is willing to expend changing that which he does not like, and how much he is willing to put up with that he doesn't like. Let's look at an example. If the boy likes Scouting, and generally likes the troop, but feels that the troop could be doing more high venture stuff, he could get himself on the PLC and present the idea. If he needs to recruit other boys who feel the same way, he can. If he can get a malority of the PLC to agree, but adults won't help find a way to make it happen, he can push, he can find the resources on his own, he can lobby, he can do most anything (in a scout - like manner) to make it happen. Anyone, including a boy, who is committed to an idea can bring it to fruition. If, however, he just thinks that high venture stuff is a good idea, and is not really committed, he has the option of accepting that fact without putting any effort into changing the troop, or at any point along the spectrum of effort expended. But in any case, the boy will certainly have been better by his association with the troop. He will have learned cooperation, camped with friends, been influenced and made to deal with adults, ben led by other boys, and eventually will have led others. All of these benefits are missing when a boy goes the lone scout route. And lastly, and I readily admit this is my predjudice, I really believe that the problems a boy, and more often his parents, have with a troop are unreasonable expectations of what the troop is and does. We had one mom who had a MAJOR fit because the ASPL yelled at her son for playing near a creek so closely that he fell in. This was at Klondike, and the tempurature was @ 30 degrees. Before I get too far, we did speak with the ASPL about a better way to handle this. But the point is, she was mad because we never told her son not to play near the creek before he fell in. She felt it was our responsiblity to make sure he knew that getting wet during the winter was a bad idea. We spent three weeks before the Klondike having boys teach the new guys winter camping skills, including avoiding getting wet, and the consequences. But we never said "Johny, don't fall in the river". And because we didn't hold his hand and explain the obvious to him, mom thought he should have never been disciplined. "His feelings were hurt", and "he felt like a dumb kid". The boy wasn't dumb, but getting wet during an outside event in the winter in our area is dumb. But the mom thought it was our responsiblity to teach him that. Scouting in a troop environment has to be better in almost every case than going to lone scouting. When the parent believes that it is not, I suggest that it is the parent's problem, and that should be addressed before a boy is made to endure missing out on the experience of being in a troop.

Folks, sorry for the ignorance (I say that a lot in my every day life!), but what's a wiccan?

I agree with everyone here. I think most troops go through this. Let's face it: The active adults' boys are usually the most active in the troop (I know that is a generalaztion that isn't always true, but more often than not, it is). That means that the Scoutmaster's son often is the guy that takes on the toughest, biggest jobs. Many times, this is SPL, and even once in a while for multiple terms. Keep in mind however, that often it is Quartermaster, or Troop guide for that patrol that just doesn't run on it's own, or any number of jobs that he gets stuck with because the Scoutmaster can persuade him during the ride home. My point is that active leaders' sons get treated differently, and this treatment goes both ways: They get some benefit from being the son of a Scoutmaster, or ASM, but they often get the shaft, too. But it all evens out. I do agree, though, that extra precaution has to be taken to show evidence that your son is not getting any help from you on this one. Our Scoutmaster actually made it more difficult for his son to win elections by noting during "campaigning" the negatives that come with electing his boy. When he won, it was the best man for the job, not everyone voting for him because it appeared that's what the Scoutmaster wanted. If you give your troop the chance, they'll do whats best for themselves - eventually. And the "failure" in between isn't disasterous, it's an oppurtunity to learn. Best of luck! Mark