mk9750

Another document I better review more carefully! We do a lot of service work for one our Coucil camps, and the boys use the log splitter constantly. Never gave it a thought, as it seems safer to me than, say a power saw, or even a bandsaw. We certainly never would let a boy use a chainsaw, regardless of the supervision provided. Another case where we made up rules that made sense to us, but might not be legitimate. I will look up the reference tonight and educate others in our Troop. Thanks for the info. And Bob, I agree with OGE. Although I have disagreed with you a couple times, your absence on this forum would be a loss to us all. Mark

What am I missing here? Separated from the movie (which at BEST sends mixed signals that I don't think are appropriate for Scouts), the song I thought tries to express how un - Scoutlike attitudes (greed, hate, war) don't work if you want real treasure (peace on earth, goodwill to men). Unless I have the message backwards, I think this is a good vespers song. Mark

Shirley: My apoligies if I offended you discussing your gender. I was trying to make sure I didn't offend a male Shirley, just in case. If I gave any reason for you to believe I think you don't belong, please accept my apoligy. As for the forms, your explaination certainly makes this more legit than I was guessing it might be. Although I work from a different philosophy (getting the Eagle wookbook is just one more task that a candidate must take on for himself), your assistance to the Scouts in your Troop is certainly appreciated, I am sure. This is assuming that the assistance is provided for all the Scouts, not just one. Lastly, if the help was extended to just one Scout, I think it would not be appropriate, whether the boy was your son or not. I am probably guilty of jumping to an incorrect conclusion, but I thought I had worded it in a manner that would allow you to provide more detail without causing you to defend yourself. If I did this poorly, I am sorry. Mark

OGE, That was my thought, too, but I hesitated posting. As a Shirley, I am guessing that SBL56 is female. Although I work with a man named Joyce, I've never heard of a male Shirley, but my apoligies if I am wrong. As a female, Eagle can't be earned by a female in the BSA. If Sharon is the mom or an adult leader of an Eagle candidate, I think she has a bit of a misconception of how the process works. It seems to me that the candidate should be doing this for himself. Am I wrong? Mark

92 SPL, Congratulations to you on your position, and to your Troop for having an ethusiatic SPL. They will be lucky to have you. Our boys have been the best advertisement we have. Particularly after a rank advancement, and here's why: At every Board of Review we do, we ask the following questions - 1) What activities have you done in Scouting? 2) What of those were fun? 3) Which one of those activities have any of your non - Scout friends done? The normal answers are rapelling, rock climbing, rifle shooting, kayaking, hiking the Appalacian Trail, Iron Man competition at summer camp, cooking their own meals, etc. Almost everyone says that almost every activity was fun. And lastly, very few guys know anyone at school who has done any of these things, and we haven't come across a guy yet who knows someone who has done any two of the things they have had a chance to do. When these Boards of Review happen around the time of Webelo visitations and crossing, these guys are out front "selling" our Troop to the potential new members. We've even had a couple of new guys join who never were in Cubs because the guy went back to school and bragged about what he has done. When our guys do one thing a month or so, it doesn't seem all that impressive to them. When they put it all together, all of a sudden, being a Boy Scout seems like something of which they can be proud, instead of something to hide. Your job then, is to make the cool things happen. If your Scoutmaster is doing his job, you and the rest of the Troop will decide what you want to do. Could be some of the things our Troop does, but maybe not. Either way (and this is an important point), when you decide you want to do something, make it happen. Plan it. Learn the skills. Figure out how to pay for it yourselfs. Many of the things I listed cost money to do. A small Troop probably doesn't have kayaks or rapelling gear at their ready, and often don't have adults trained to do these activities safely. But equipment can be rented (or borrowed sometimes - our Troop lends its equipment to nearby Troops somewhat regularly). But take the initiate to not only come up with the idea, but a plan to make it happen and how you'll pay for it. You can do this, I am positive! And as was already mentioned, you have a unique oppurtunity to establish the direction and traditions your Troop will have. It's an awesome responsiblity, but you can do it! And lastly, another poster mentioned Junior Leader Training. Don't miss it. Especially if it is well done in your council, it will be the best time you ever invest. Best of luck to you. Please keep us posted on how it is going. Mark

Hop Scout, I'm glad to see you can now appreciate the value you got from working at your own pace. I am a believer in the general concept of First Class first year. Actually, our Troop uses approximately 18 months as the goal, because the traditional framework of the yearlong program we use takes @ 18 months for a boy to get an oppurtunity through the program to work on all the rank requirements. But if a boy wants to work outside the set program, for example, doing his 5 mile hike with a buddy on his own, he can certainly short circuit the 18 month cycle and be First Class sooner. But our best Scouts (measured by knowledge of Scout skills) all took the full 18 months, and maybe even a bit longer, to get to 1st Class. And EVERY time we have seen comparisons between the skills our guys have compared to the skills of Scouts from other Troops who advance faster, our guys run circles around them, just like you're describing. I am convinced this is due to our "see one, do one, teach one" method, where an older Scout teaches a skill to a young Scout, the young Scout gets to practice it at an event, and after he has put it into real use, he is tested on it, by an older Scout. Once he has tested on all of the rank requirements (he's become 1st Class), he then is asked to teach these skills to the next group of new Scouts, and test them on the skill. It is in this part of the program that our guys really learn these skills. Let's face it: Even when practiced for real, a Scout can complete a requirement satisfactorily without really KNOWING the skill. But he can't possibly teach it with a low level of knowledge and skill. You should be proud of your high level of competence. And as you test younger guys, although you should never make it harder than the requirement states, mkae sure that the high standards you have (or someone had for you) are met. As to mama bear, I'd say that a boy absolutely cannot be too excited about anything good. My personal experience has been that I have mistaken my excitement for my boys' activities for their excitement. My youngest is a junior black belt. I assumed for 5 years that he was having a great time in karate, because I was having a great time watching and working with him. As he approached earning black belt, he arranged with his instructor and me to take the summer off right after he met his goal. that was a year ago, and he hasn't been back yet, and just told me this morning he figured he probably wouldn't. When I expressed suprise, he said that it was boring. I thought to myself, "Boring, I never thought it was boring!". Then it hit me. I'll be trying to determine if his interest in Scouts is similiar. I hope not, but I learned something this morning. I am not suggesting this is your situation, but offer it as one perspective. Good luck to you! Mark

Bob, We start teaching leadership the moment a boy crosses into our Troop. We use this set up as a way to reinforce one of the first things we teach our boys when teaching leadership: In order to be a good leader, you have to know how to be a good follower. While preparing for an event, the SPL runs the PLC and directs their planning. When the planning is done and the event is on, the Patrol Laaders do 90% of the leading. It might even be more than that on a unit event. He then assumes the role of a Patrol member, although as a courtesy, his Patrol Leader usually goes light on him when writing the duty roster, and he never has responsibilities on Friday night (arrival) or Sunday morning (departure). During these times, we want him to be "above the fray", and making certain everything is done on a timely basis. We've had one ASM who has suggested a few times that we should move the SPL and ASPL out of their Patrol, but except for his son, no one has ever seen the point. They tent with their buddies anyway, they don't want to cook for just two (in fact they end up not having to cook at all in most cases). I would not argue that ours is the only way to do it, but it works for us, and the guys who have served in these positions almost all have prefered it this way. Mark

Our SPL and ASPL are part of regular Patrols in our Troop. Normally, that would be the Venture Patrol, as SPL's tend to be older (15 - 17) in our Troop. One events, they camp with their Patrol. Mark

Can add another answer? Our CO is barely able tolerate us. Sound weird? Our CO is is a Men's Club at our Church. They were chartered originally to be a booster club for the sports programs. Somewhere along the line, we were given to them. For years, starting way before I ever got involved, we were very autonomous, and the only contact between the two organizations was tracking down someone to sign the paperwork. As I have mentioned before, about 10 years ago a new SM came aboard, and he took it as one of his personal missions to make them more aware of us. He always complained that that the sports teams were handed everything with no effort on their own, while we did everything for ourselves. In addition, it always seemed that the school's boys almost were encouraged to mock the Scouts, because choosing Scouting in this parish means rejecting sports, because you can't play unless you give 100% (that's been discussed in other threads, too). Actually, I do have to admit that things are getting better. The sqeaky wheel method took a long time to pay dividends, and it was aided by a change at the top of the Men's Club. But they now seem to be trying to help more. Unfortunately, the eaiest thing for them to do is throw money, which we really don't want, as it makes our boys less responsible for the decisions they make (want to have a kayaking program? figure out how we'll outfit your patrol with kayaks...). But at least there is more of an attitude of cooperation there. It probably helped that my son insisted that his Eagle project would benefit the CO. He understood the politics that were in place, and felt his effort might kill two or more birds with one stone. He's a pretty smart kid that way, 'cuase I think it's working, or at least helping. Mark

Barry, I love you being in this forum! You make some of my posts seem short (well, OK, not all of them, but some!). Thanks for the support. I am not embarassed by the way I wore my jacket before: I've read the guidelines, but only as it pertained to uniforms, not jackets, so even though I may have been incorrect, I wasn't purposefully or knowingly doing so. But you phrase why I disagree with the guideline much better than I could. To say I love Scouting, and what it has done for my sons (and me) is inadequate. Saying I am passionate doesn't even cover it. Whatever the phrase would be that describes my attitude, I enjoy bragging about my association with Scouts. I am proud that I am valuable enough to belong. I'm not always so sure I deserve to be, but I'll accept that if the Troop hasn't booted me out yet, I'm of at least some small value. I know that there has never been a day when I didn't know for sure I got way more out of my association with Scouting, and specifically our Troop, than I get from it. One of those thigs I get is the joy I get from being with my boys while Scouting. Thus the patches on the jacket. Well, there I go. I was determined to make this post short to make my point about Barry's diatribes. you know what the kids say: Point one finger at you, I point four back at me! Mark

Bob, I'll stop wearing it because it is the right thing to do. I stop begrudgingly (God only knows if I spelled that one right!), not happy that I must. But I must because it is the right thing to do. It's the same attitude I take when I have to drive the speed limit, or call a penalty stroke on myself in golf. I don't like to do either, but right is right. Not to worry Bob, I'm not angry about it! I just disagree. Mark

Chucklehead, In trying to be fair, I visited your website as requested. It is very impressive! I would love to have short meeting minutes posted on our website, as it always seems our adults are too busy with other stuff to always hear what the guys planned and did. Is there a glitch in your site? You mentioned you have 52 Scouts in one of your ealiest posts, and I think later you said 60. the Patrol rosters you show add up to 38 I think I counted, and that includes the Venture Patrol. You might want to check it out and see if you are missing a Patrol or two. Also, if you have a venture patrol, that is active on its own, you actually do use a bit of The Methods of Boy Scouting. It's a nice start. Does it work to keep these guys interested by providing something age appropriate for them to do? Lastly, my last post guessed your age at 16 to 17. I'm now guessing your are 17 or 18, in that I figured 1985 was your troop number, but I see I am wrong. so now I'm guessing it is your year of birst, right? Mark

Chucklehead, No I don't see your point of view, because I am not with your troop every day. All I have to base my comments on is the Troop my sons are in, and what I have been taught are the Boy Scout Methods. Have you ever had any conversation about trying some of these other ideas? I'n not saying a drastic change, but just one idea? If you were to try one, which would it be? I'm guessing a natural would be patrol camping. Is there any chance that if you suggested to your troop that each group of guys that generally hang together find its own site, away from everyone else, and pitch their tents together, it would work? What do you think the results, pro and con, would be? Do you guys get the same kind of attitude we see when we put significantly different age guys together (say 12 and 17)? We always seemed to get "Why do I have to spend time with the little kids?", and "Why do the older guys do stuff that we can't do?". During your troop meetings, or an event, when someone decides that the troop should work on a rank requirement (let's say lashing), does everyone, even the guys who have done it 3, 4 ,7 times have to do it again? If not what do they do instead? During campouts, when you're by the campfire, and you older guys start turning the conversation to girls (don't try to fool us, we know!), do you wish the younger guys would just go away? And when you were younger, did you wish the older guys would stop talking about girls and start talking a Pokemon, or whatever was the cool thing for 11 and 12 year olds to be doing at the time? When you have done your high venture outings (sounds like you had fun), were they appropriate for all 60 guys? If not, what did the other guys do? If you answer the way I think most Troops would, I'd guess that a solution to some of the difficulties that arose during those times would be the Patrol Method. And, as you older guys got to the age you're at now (I'm guessing 16 or 17), the freedom of doing things away from younger guys, and away from adults gets really attractive (now don't try to pretend you like us meddling in your conversations and activities. We know that we're pretty cool, but we're also smart enough to know you guys like your space). Which small idea from the Patrol Method would you try? I'm betting it might be camping with your tightest buddies. Mark

Bob, That is exactly what I was saying. I disagree with the fact this should be governed by the uniform guidelines. It's a coat, for Pete's sake! but if it is in the guidelines that it shouldn't be worn with all of the patches on it like I have, I would never willfully contradict a guideline. As you say, no one may ever tell me to take it off, but if it isn't right, it isn't right. I don't want to be the guy that one of the young people who see me as an example points to when he says "Well if Mark can do something not quite right, so can I". But it is too important to me to take the patches off, so I'll just dispay it somewhere where my mind can wonder to terrific times... Mark

chucklehead (by the way, I love the name! It's what I call myself alot!): I am sorry for using some of the phrases I did. I am not going to say I didn't mean them, because at the time I wrote them, I meant them. But after reading them in print, I realize they just were not appropriate for this conversation. Please accept my apology. How long has your Troop run itself like this? Have you seen any drawbacks to it? Although I don't think our Troop would want to revert back to how we were, I'd be interesting to see any comparisons between your sucessful Troop and ours that couldn't get things right. I wonder if we had just given the Scoutmaster more time to implement things, if we could have gotten as good as we think we are. I think if I read Bob White's comment correctly, he isn't ripping on your SM. Bob has shown a tremendous tolerance for people who are on this forum that disagree with him, so I am certain he has the same respect for your Scoutmaster. Please believe me, no one here feels you or your Scoutmaster are bad people. My dad (today is the one year aniversary of the day he died) used to always say to me whenever I wanted to argue with conventional wisdom: "Mark, it's probably not very likely that the whole world is wrong and you're right". I can tell you this: Although once in a great while I proved that I was the lone righteous voice, it wasn't too darn often. As glad as I am that I stuck to my principles the two or three times I was right, they were generally small victories. If I had listened to the wisdom and experience of others who had been there before me, I would have saved myself a lot of work, heartache, and aggrevation. Take the oppurtunity to answer some of the questions presented here. Even if you don't answer us, answer them with your "inner circle" in the Troop. If you answer honestly, and with an open mind, and can still say you know you are right, stick to your priciples. But please don't make the mistake of dismissing the ideas without honest consideration. Although I am dead certain you are correct that there are plenty of other Troops using your method, I'd be willing to bet an in depth study would show that a far greater percentage of successful Troops use the Boy Scout Method, as descibed by those who have "been there, done that". I can't prove it to you, so I won't be suprised if you reject it. But I would bet I am right. I'll try one more analogy: Ice cream is great, wouldn't you say? I like ice cream all by it self, I think it is terrific. But Ice cream with syrup and whipped cream and nuts and a cherry are even better, most people think. Not everyone, but most. Can you get enjoyment from plain old ice cream? You bet! But it's so much better with the extras, isn't it? Same with Scouts. Your Troop accomplishes the task of Scouting (as you see it). But think how much better it might be with the syrup (patrols), the whipped cream (PLC), the planning meeting (nuts) and real control in the hands of the Scouts, not the Scoutmaster (cherry). Wise people here are trying to make the condiments sound appealing to you. Please don't reject them without tasting them first! Again, good luck to you. Mark

petal, Yep, same here. I made a commitment to my two sons a long time ago that I would put patches from every event we went on together, and only those events, on my jacket. That jacket is something of which I am very proud. But obviously, I have been misusing it. So I won't wear it anymore. However, I refuse to change it. I have a little corner in my office that has momentos of all things Scouting. I think I'll put a nail in the wall, put the jacket on a hanger, and hang it backwards for everyone to see. that way, they also won't see the BSA patch on the front, which is what I guess makes it uniform, and not just a jacket. I don't agree with this, but if those smarter than me say it's true, it probably is. But one thing I won't do is knowingly go against one of the policies of a group to which I belong. No more jacket for me. Mark

Chucklehead: I too would like to both congratulate you on your enthusiastic attitude toward Scouting, and also comment about what you are missing. Until about a year and a half before my oldest son entered Boy Scouts, our Troop sounded like it was just like yours. Patrol leaders only existed to have a patch on their shoulder and a position of leadership, the Scoutmaster made practically all the decisions, usually presented to the boys by the SPL to make it look like they were boy led. Because the youth leadership didn't decide their own course, leading was a series of laying down rules and punishments to get the guys to do what the SPL passed on from the Scoutmaster. All tenting, cooking, and meetings were centered on the larger Troop, and the only real value to the patrol method was just as you say, a phone chain. The Troop had been divided into artificial patrols, trying to balance each patrol with the same number of 16 year olds, etc,. and the same number of 2nd Class Scouts as the other Patrols. Why they made the effort to do this, no one really understood. But the one thing that was obvious to the man who eventually became Scoutmaster was that there had been NO training. He paid, out of his pocket, for himself and three other adults, including the current SM, to go to Scoutmaster Fundamentals training. It opened the eyes of everyone there, except the then current SM, who refused to accept that he wouldn't be in charge anymore. After a ceremonious resignation, the Troop was left with thre adults who mostly understood the system. Next effort was to get the youth leaders trained. The "old gaurd" SPL wanted no part of it, so the new SM gathered some of the older guys together, offered to pay (out of his own pocket again) for JLT. These guys came back with the lights turned on. They would not be stopped from turning the troop into A BOY SCOUT TROOP. The most obvious interference the SM had from then on was in insisting that our new "Troop" begin to wear complete uniforms. Up until then, a BSA shirt, open all the way down, and jeans or shorts, was the uniform. Some of the oldest guys decided they didn't want to be a part of a troop that needed uniforms, so they quit. Our SM says this was the hardest thing he's ever done in Scouting, letting guys go, but he knew that for the boys in the Troop to get the very best Scouting had to offer, he had to begin insisting that the youth leadership, and through them, all boys, begin working toward the Aims of Scouting, using the Methods of Scouting, one of which, as I am sure you know, because you've been trained, is Uniforming. After many PLCs, the boys determined how they would split up the Troop into real patrols. I would have giiven it no chance of working, I'll be honest, but I would have been wrong. The three guys who made up the PLC at the time decided that they would map where everyone pitched their tents on the next Troop campout. They would form two patrols, each with the 10 guys who camped closest to each other. It is only later that I have learned that this included two major aspects of the patrol method: Forming a patrol of buddies who want to spend their Scouting time together, and camping in patrols. OK, the the second was done backwards this time, but the purpose is obvious, I think: If a group of guys tented close together, they probably are a natural patrol anyway. When my son started, the Troop grew from 20 to 31 boys. The year after that, it grew again to 38. And the year after that, it grew to 48. We were at a point that we considered capping membership at 50, just because we didn't know if the youth leadership could handle so many guys. Although they have struggled off and on for the last couple of years with our size, they generally do a fine job. And the benefit of our Troop moving to a real Patrol method? It's the only way for a young man to get the experience to lead properly. I know to you I will sound like I am preaching, but practically no teenager has the ability to lead more than 8 - 12 guys. Trying to do more leads to being a boss, not a leader. That is why in a real Patrol method, the SPL's activity is rarely if ever leading the Troop, it is leading the Patrol Leaders (PLC). In addition, along with proper training, running a Troop using the Patrol Method is easier. There truly is less work, less to stay on top of (or in front of, as our PLC phrases it), and more people among whom the work can be spread. As a reletively new member this to forum (welcome, by the way), you may not have had the oppurtunity to experience the wisdom that some many of the senior forum members posess and share with us. I mean to leave no one out, but particlarly Bob White, Eagledad, Old Grey Eagle, and Koreascouter have been unbelievable resources to me since I have become active in this forum. I don't mean to say I always agree with them: I don't. But their opinions and ideas ALWAYS are worth my time to consider seriously. I think they would be for you, too. A few times while debating issues here, I have seen others (Bob White says it most) say something like "your program may work well, but if you're not using the Aims and Methods of Boy Scouting, than you're not a Boy Scout Troop" (my apoligies for the liberties I have taken with the quote). Despite the BSA logo on your uniform, if you are not using the Patrol Method, even though you understand it, I don't think you should consider yourself a Boy Scout Troop. I wsh you and your Troop well. It sounds to me like you and 60 or so of your buddies have what it takes to become a real Boy Scout Troop if you put some effort into it. It's not the easiest thing to do, and I'll predict if you try, you'll lose some of your guys. But, as Bob and others pointed out, it's not really the size of your Troop that determines your success (although I understand and agree with you that it is one INDICATOR). It is the number of boys who become men, armed with the life skills and strenght of character that active participation in a quality program gives them. What I think you might not realize, is that the BSA establishes the criteria for a quality Boy Scout program, not you or the members of your Troop. I agree that you all determine your happiness in the Troop by how many join and stay. But so do many other groups, good and bad (I hesitate using this example, but the Ku Klux Klan comes to mind). But that certainly doesn't mean you run a quality Boy Scout program, any more than the KKK does. Although I am long winded (AGAIN!!!!), I hope you get the essence of my message. It works! Let it work for you! Good luck to you! Mark

acco40, I understand it is "official". But is it a uniform? If it is part of the uniform, than I can see that BSA would make rules governing its appearance. I just can't believe it is covered under uniform. If it is, then is a BSA poncho part of the uniform, and therefore subject to guidelines? how about the flashlight example? The one in the catalog certainly is "official", but I highly doubt that its use or appearance is covered under uniform guidelines. I'm not trying to debate, because I really don't know. But I think if you are right, my examples show some of the silliness of the rules regarding these jackets. Shemgren, Thanks for the info on the ties. Once I read it, I remembered the exact same thing. At least that's a relief! Mark

In another thread, someone hinted that the Red Wool Jacket is Official "Uniform", and therefore has ruled governing it's wear and use. Is this true? I had never heard anything like this before. I also have patches all over mine, and have no intention of taking them off. It is true that it is "official BSA". But so are some of the flashlights, and tents, and pots, and 1000 other things in the catalog. I am not aware that I am not allowed to put a label on my "Official BSA" flashlight (OK, I don't really own one, but you get the point). In the same thread, someone mentioned the old olive tie being worn with the fireld uniform. I am aware they stopped selling the tie, but does that mean it can no longer be worn with the uniform? If so, we've got some real probelems in our Troop. The boys voted that only Scouts can wear our Troop neckerchief, and as a group the adults all decided that formal occasions (C of Hs, parades) required a tie. Only one of us likes the bolo tie. Are we out of uniform at every Court of Honor we do? Mark

I agree with both responses. When we camp, the assigned cook provides a light snack on Friday night, a good breakfast, a light lunch (like cold cuts or hot dogs), a great dinner, and a snack Saturday, then cold cereal and fruit Sunday morning. This usually costs @ 10.50 - $12.00 per guy, assuming 6 - 10 guys in the patrol to feed. But I think RMV has the better idea. Let the boys figure it out. Normally, I would say the Patrol leader should assign someone to be a cook and he should shop, or the PL should assign a shopper. But in your situation, I think RMV points out a great oppurtunity for team building, and also getting everyone in the patrol up to speed quickly on how this process works. Then the next time the PL can assign the duty. Good luck! Great to hear you are off to such a great start! Mark

Ozemu, I too would like you to know that you are as valued member in this forum. I have definitely enjoyed your posts. Somewhere along the way you may have described this, but I missed it. But is Scouting in Australia under the auspices of the BSA? Not a problem either way, just curious. Congrats on an improving program. You should be proud of your boys (and girls if you have them)! Mark

Even I would say that the SM has no right to refuse to talk to the boy about this. If the SM says no, the boy has every right to know why the answer was no. If it is a legitimate reason, the boy then has the chance to fix whatever is unsatisfactory. If the reason is bogus, then the boy, and possibly later his parents, would have something to base a protest (formal or informal) on. Come on SM, even if you're right, you've got to at least communicate! Mark

ProudParent, Most of my stance would stay the same even if the discussion is limited to just the project. But in a way it becomes easier to make my arguement, in that the Scoutmaster does have to approve the project, which allows him to excersise judgement as to the worthiness of the project. If it is a project that absolutely demonstrates leadership, and is an absolute service to the community, I think he is obligated to sign it (also, he should be reviewing for potential safety issues, I think). But this is where the SM's judgement comes into play. I don't think it is fair to say that a 13 year old should be held to the same standards as an 17 year old. But there has to be some minimum standard of acceptablility, and I think that level is higher than the overwhelming majority of 13 year olds can meet. For instance, how likely is it that a 13 year old has gained the abilty to lead adults, which often happens on Eagle projects? If he has adults working on the project, but cannot lead them, he is not fulfilling one of the basic parts of the purpose of the project. And again, it is not because he is 13. It is because at 13, it is extremely unlikely he could have developed the skills necesary to complete the task legitimately. I will say one thing, though. In the little bit of info you have provided, there is one part that would impress me that this guy might be one of the few that could handle it. And that would be his desire to take care of the requirements in the order in which the oppurtunities to do so present themselves, not waiting to do it at the end "like everyone else does". this assumes it is he who decided to develop and pursue doing a project, and not his parents or an adult leader (obviously, it wasn't the SM in this case). As Ed said, it is more customary that boys leave the project to the end. But it is not required. If your guy here has enough on the ball that he ignores what everyone else does and instead does what feels right for him, maybe I'd be inclined to look more favorably on the idea. Maybe he is that rare kid who could have gained all of these skills and put them to use on a project. But again, that would make him the significant exception. Mark

I hate being the subject of posts that disagree with me, but I think this is important enough that I don't want to just aquiesce. I would like to clarify my position. I agree 100% that age is not a valid factor in any advancement. But from my small window on the Scouting world (about 90 boys over the last 7 years as advancement chair getting to 13 as a Scout), I have only seen one boy who I thought had what it would take to legitimately make it to Life Scout. He didn't, because he was more involved with other things (karate, football, wrestling, 4.0 GPA). But he was the only boy I've encountered that I think could have focused and channeled his energy and ability into legitimately earning Life. I have also seen a number of 13 and 14 year old Life Scouts, all from other Troops, except three transfers into our Troop. For the most part, it would not be fair for me to make the statement that these boys didn't deserve to be Life. But with the little evidence I had (Scout skills, leadership technique, dependability, etc.) I believe that almost none of them deserved the badge on their chest. It is not fair for me to make a blanket assumption based on my limited experience and say a 13 year old could never legitimately be a Life (or Eagle Scout), but I think my experience is quite enough to be suspicious of anyone who is. To put it another way, it isn't being 13 that keeps most boys from deserving Eagle, it is most 13 year olds' ability to meet the requirements legitimately that does. One story to make my point (and I'll be the first to say one story doesn't make it true for everyone): We had a boy whose family moved in from out of state looking for a new Troop. He was directed to our Troop first by council office. The SM met with him and with his parents. He was 13 (almost 14, if I remember), and Life. When asked what leadership positions he held in his old Troop, he said something like "I don't remember the name - it's kinda like the one where you help the adults with the gear". He ended up with another Troop, but was in the same school as many of our Scouts. During an American History class, one of our guys made the comment that a lot of what they were learning would be useful in Cit. of Com and Nation MBs. He told them, in a bit of a NA,NA,NA voice, that he already had those badges, and didn't remember his mom using hardly any of the information he was hearing in class to write the notes he took to speak with hte MB councelor. THIS IS A TRUE STORY! Again, just because one boy was like this, doens't make them all like this. I know that. But I use an example sometimes that might work here: If everyday you walked out of your house, and a green dog bit you, a different green dog every day, pretty soon you'd start being supsicious of green dogs. No matter how much you might have liked green dogs before, you'll start to be very careful around green dogs, at least until one of them proves he won't bit you. It's the same here for me. I didn't start out thinking 13 year olds were generally too young for Eagle. Heck, I wanted my oldest son to be an Eagle as soon as possible, and still wish my current 13 year old could get there. But he isn't old enough right now to earn it legitimately, and neither have any but one boy in my 7 years experience. So when I see or hear about a 13 year old Eagle candidate, I am suspicious. I guess it might be just the water in my neck of the woods that makes our guys less qualified. but when ours get there, they've earned it. And not because we made them be older. they're older because we made them earn it. Specifically in this case, I agree with Bob White and others. If the SM is saying the boy can't earn the rank because he is 13, he's wrong. If he is requiring a minimum level of leadership, or ability, or whatever, that he can't show BECAUSE he is 13, and he is being reasonable and even handed, I think he is right. Mark

I supsect you'll get answers across the board on this one! On one hand, if a boy meets the requirements, he is entitled to the award. There are a few tenure restrictions on the route, but a 13 year old could have navigated those, so it isn't impossible for a 13 year old to be Eagle. On the other hand, there are some reality issues involved here. I'll just present one with which I am very passionate: One of the Eagle required MBs is Personal Management. One of the requirements for that MB is to develop a budget and track it for three months. Meeting the bare minimum of the requirement, a boy could plan his entire income being milk money, his entire expenditures being on milk, and he will have met the minimum requirement. But does this really teach the skill intended? Absolutely not! So how do we balance the two? I'm not sure. I know I deal with it by telling anyone who approaches me to do this badge that I won't work on it with them unless they have significant enough income. I won't define what significant is, because I don't think it is fair to make a boy have a job to earn the badge. But he has to have enough income and outgo to be of real significance to him in his day to day life. If he doesn't have that when he wants to work on the badge, I speak with his parents about it. If I can convince them, and they can convince their son, all is well. If not, then I give them the name of other councelors. When does a boy begin having "significant" income and outgo? Well, I'd say once a guy gets interested in stuff that cost money, like cars, girls, even video games, and encounter parents who won't just give them the money to partake, it's about the right time. When he wants to take Lucy out, and needs money for the movie, and mom and dad don't fork it over, it's time to learn about budgets. There are other examples I feel are appropriate, not the least of which is the physical abilities required of Lifesaving, which I think are almost impossible for the average (not all) 13 year olds to demonstrate. I know that Emergency Preparedness is an alternate. But I use this as an example. some things are just not likely done satisfactorily just because of a boys age and / or size. And lastly, I have another problem with this. Let's assume that the boy was exactly 11 when he joined, and he is exactly 13 now (humor me). In 104 weeks, he has completed 34 (approximately) rank requirements, and easily over 175 MB requirements (I am estimating: I didn't actually count them). Does any one here really know any Scout, particularly a 13 year old, who can learn, practice, and demonstrate an average of over two requirements per week? And if so, is it likely they were completed to the best of that Scout's ability? In the long run, I don't think that a 13 year old could be stopped from getting Eagle, but I don't think I could participate in facilitating it. Mark