mk9750

LauraT7 The book you talk about is the same thing we've done for a few years now. It does work well except for one occasion: Crossing the border into Canada. We had a line of 11 cars going through the checkpoint. The first car in line gave the book to the Canadian customs person, who spent the rest of our time complaining to every driver in our group how tough we made her job by having everything in one book. They are responsible for verifying that children aren't being taken to Canada by ex spouses, and such, and they had to see every boy and their permission slip at the same time. We got through without any serious problem, but we learned a lesson. Any time we are going to Canada, we will either pass the pages of the book out to each car, or create another group of copies for each vehicle. Our Committe Chair is responsible for keeping this book up to date, and gives it to whatever adult is in charge of an event. I have tried to come up with a way to justify that this should be the Scribe's job, but there is too much confidential information in it to allow a boy to handle it. I'd like to figure out a way to use this concept but to make it the responsiblity of the Scribe. Maybe just seperate the permission slips and make him responsible for those, and helping check in at camp. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear. Mark

Bob, Yes, good to have you back, but better that yur mother is doing well. I went through that with my dad last year, and unfortunately, it didn't end as well. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you, but cherish your extended time with your parents. I absolutely am the man I am because of my parents, and realized too late that I never told my dad so. I look forward to your insight again. Mostly right on, always worthy of consideration, and often the fodder for humorous debate. glad to have you back! Mark

Hey KS! I've been hoping you'd post some of your guys' impressions of their sojourn. Hope they had a good time! Love to hear about it! Mark

sctmom, Don't give up on the Webelos. I certainly understand your concern about the Boy Scout units in your area, but another two years in a good Cub program is better than nothing. And, you've got a great oppurtunity. You know of the shortcomings, and you have boys who are impressionable. Maybe you can use your influence to direct the boys to see and understand the real program, and then you can get involved with the best Troop you can find. With some effort from an adult, and some boys who are willing to work at it because you taught them the value of the real program, and with some patience, who knows? Maybe you can be the pioneer in your area for quality Scouting. Keep up the effort. Nothing good ever gets done without some sweat and blood and tears. It ain't easy, but someone's got to do it. Good luck! Mark

If you go to the BSA National website (Scouting.org, I think, but there should also be a link on these pages), you should be able to locate a link to the Council that services Lexington. Contact them, and they may either have something for you, or be able to direct you to the council that does (if there has been any shifting of the councils in that area over the years, it's never sure which council will have the records. You might also try NESA (National Eagle Scout Association). I don't know what records they get from BSA or keep, but it would be a resource. Good luck to you. I envy your accomplishment. Mark

cubrgr8, We committed ourselves to providing high venture activities for the specific purpose of enticing older guys to stay active with the Troop. And it has been overwhelmingly successful. Most of the middle age guys (12- 14) work their tail off to be eligible for these activities (we alway provide tastes of them to all: A weekend campout of rapelling for all, or a Troop meeting at a local lake where everyone can use the kayaks). By the time the guys get to the point where they can participate 100%, they know their responsiblity to the Troop. We certainly have learned that we have to cut them some slack: Jobs, sports, band often interfere with regular attendance. But we have no problem at all getting older guys to meetings if they don't have a conflict, and only a small problem getting them on campouts, and that's usually because the planned activity is geared so much for the young guys that it is boring for them, and we really only need a few of the older guys to run the program. The older guys have a very loose rotation to handle the few campouts like this. They know they have a responsiblity, and they come through. We know that programs designed to help the younger guys aren't challanging or fun for the older guys, so as long as we have enough of them to make the program work, we let them off the hook. Specifically, adding these activities has absolutely kept older guys in our program. Although we've not recruited older guys because of theses activities, we believe most of our young recruits were attracted by the oppurtunities to come. and the intagibles the boys get for participating are emmense. Given the chance to do it all over, we wouldn't change a thing. Mark

OGE, We are blessed with a very active bunch of adults who work hard to provide oppurtunities for our boys to do most anything they can imagine and find a way to pay for. When some guys wanted to do repelling, three of our adults got themselves certified to teach rock climbing and repelling, including one of them going to Philmont for training, to make it happen. When other guys wanted to kayak, three other adults (actually one of them the same as with rapelling) have gone through the same process with American Red Cross to be qualified to teach this skill. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that it cost well over $500.00 for each of these adults to become qualified, out of their own pocket, plus the hours and weekends spent doing so. They then also trained older Scouts in the same skills so that as they became adults, they were qualified to teach this stuff too. My point is that not only does it take the boys having the idea, and being responsible for paying for it, it takes something even tougher to come by some times: Commitment from adults. If you can get a few adults to do what they have to do to provide the chance for the guys to do what they want to do, our experience is that the boys will make it happen. Let's face it. As far as money, either the families can provide it, or the boys can earn it, but nothing can keep them from doing so if they want to. But no matter how much money they have, if there isn't some way to provide the activity, by providing adult support, the boys can't overcome that. Also, the only thinks we ask the boys to provide themselves is specialized equipment. Tents, etc., come out of general funds. General funds come from fundraiser too, that the boys take part in, but we don't do a car wash specifically for tents and such. And we get a lot of help from parents non monetary. They build things, they provide storage space, stuff like that. LautaT7, I am both envious and sympathetic at the same time. I can imagine how junk can accumulate. So many people think they are doing you a favor and give you tents that no longer are of value to them, etc. If they are not valuable to them, they often aren't valuable to a Troop, either, who will most likely be tougher on it than they were. But boy would we like to have a Troop bus! A number of us have considered trying to buy one, and although the initial cost is high, we think we could pull it off. But in our state, anyone driving a vehicle designed for 15 or more passengers must have a commercial drivers license, and we have no one capable of maintaining it. We also are afraid that we couldn't afford the upkeep. And storing it would be a problem too. If you have any thing to share about how your Troop does it, I 'd love to hear about it. You know, it's funny (and I don't mean any disrespect to you OGE, or anyone else), but I started a thread about the problems that exist in a boy led Troop, but responding to other threads, like this, make me see that maybe our guys don't do so badly after all. Mark

LauraT7 alluded to a very valid point. She said that ADHD kids belong in Scouting. I believe this and more. It is easy to conjure up an image of boys who excel in the Scout program, and that is really cool. But there are a number of categories of youth, ADHD among them, that may not fit the first image of a Scout, yet it is these boys for whom Scouting is really valuable. A year or so ago, we had a boy in the Troop that didn't seem to fit the image. He prefered computers, books, etc. to outdoor activities. Camping, and particularly the work that went into camping (collecting firewood, caring for equipment and such) were well outside his comfort zone. All of this, and a bit of a snobish attitude on his part when dealing with the other boys, made him a target for quite a bit of harassment from his peers. At one campout, in an effort to provide him an opurtunity to complete his rank cooking requirements, the older boys invited him to cook for them if he wanted. His mom convinced him to accept, and coached him to do it with a good attitude, and how to do it well. I believe the boys figured they had a great situation: They would either eat well, or have something else to pick on him for. He did a terrific job! And by doing so, he got a big increase in the respect he got from his peers. And that respect translated into a greater sense of confidence, more willingness to try new experiences, a greater interest in Scouting, and so many other benefits. The "ideal" Scout would have handled this without any remarkable effort or result. But it was one of the guys who wasn't the "all 'round perfect Scout" that showed a number of us how important this program is to other segments of the youth population. We also have a Downs Syndrome boy in our Troop. He is 16 and close to finishing 2nd class. He has never been cut any slack in any of his advancements, and he knows it. It took him and me easily 6 weeks working a little every week for him to remember the hurry cases. But when I finally signed his book, he took a tour around the room high fiving boys and adults in the Troop that made Cal Ripken's look tame. I can't say I understand what activities a Downs Syndrome teenager has available, but I won't believe that this guy has had the oppurtunity to feel the sucesses that he has in Scouts. He might make 1st Class, might not. But I don't think anyone in our Troop has been more sucessful as a Scout that has he. I am so proud that he never quit. And I think he is too. We cringe any time a boy decides to leave Scouting. But we feel we failed the most when the boy who quits is one of these kinds of boys. I applaud LauraT7, sctmom, and all who help their boys (their own or the ones in their Troop) be successes, whether in our out of Scouts. It may not always be easy, but, as with most things in life, often the harder something is, the more satisfying the sucess. Mark

OGE, I share your concern about the cost of many of the more appealing activities scouts do. In our Troop, we own rock climbing and repelling gear, kayaks, rifles, canoes, etc. But every single one was obtained after a PLC annual planning meeting determined that the activity was something our boys wanted to try. After the first try, usually with another Troop who could provide the resources, or American Red Cross, or generous dads to lend the rifles, the boys were told that to continue those activities, certain equipment would be needed. In almost all cases, the most interested Scout was designated as the point man, and he investigated equipment options and costs, along with an adult advisor, and made recomendations for the Troop to consider. Once costs were established, existing fundraisers were earmarked for those costs, or additional fundraisers were developed. Scout who wanted to participate but could not / would not do fundraisers were asked to foot the bill out of pocket. Over 7 years, I'd estimate we developed an inventory of specialized equipment that cost well over $12,000.00. But the boys wanted it, and they recognized they had to pay for it. Works for us. Mark

scoutmom, Please, PLEASE encourage your son to consider Den Chief if and when he returns to Scouting. You are 100% right that they are few and far between, and worse, many of those that exist are ill suited for the job. Luckily, it is usually only a good attitude and some training that separates the good ones from the not so good. I applaud you for thinking in that direction, and him if he considers doing it. Good luck to you both! Mark

Twocubdad, I have to admit, the way you describe your involvement makes me envious. I'd love to have worked with my boys on their cars. I couldn't do it though. I made the decision right from the start that for me, it was either stay out of it completely or do way more than I think is appropriate. I chose the former. It's a personality flaw I have that if I get involved, I end up doing it myself (I've gotten much better grades this time in grammer school than twenty years ago! LOL). That's the biggest reason I do advancements, not Scoutmastering. I also envy your work shop. I've got a drill (someday I'll have to find the chuck key again) and a tool kit in one of theose plastic cases. Mark

cubmom, Sorry, I did not mean to offend. I didn't make any assumptions, I spoke about what our family did for Pinewood Derbies, or answered comments from you and others (losing digits, etc.). I certainly did not mean to imply that no one but my sons could care about their cars. I only stated that I have heard other boys say the things I mentioned. I know their dads did much of the work on their cars, so I guess I am guilty of drawing a conclusion based on what I have known to be true. I did not mean to imply that I think you are doing all of the work. I said that my sons did all of their own work. Saying so does not imply anything else. I think (I don't want to assume) that I've hit a nerve, and again, I am sorry. But I believe what I said: We as an American society don't let our children do enough for themselves. That was not a comment about you, but about America today. And I stand by it. One more time, I am sorry. I do think your appoach is wrong, but I believe fiercely that you have the right to make that determination yourself. I truly meant only to give you an oportunity to see a different point of view. Good luck with the Derby. Mark

No, no work shop at our house. We had to go over my brother in law's house to use the bandsaw. Most of their work was actually done on a 1" x 12" plank laid over top of the washer and dryer in the basement. I'd love to have provided a better place for them towork, or better tools. Maybe they could have done better. But they worked with what they had available. Mark

Ditto to all. Although I've heard various numbers, there is a direct correlation between 1st year summer camp attendence and a boy's continuation in the program. Late crossings do two negetive things: They allow little time for a boy to be shown how to camp, and they don't allow the troop to undo the attitude that scouting is a nine month of the year program. In addition to Chipewa29's comments about sports and vacation, we find far too many families (not necesarily boys) saying "OK, we're crossed. See you in September" (hey they should make a song...). Cross as soon as these three things are in line: Arrow of Light earned, the pack can schedule the ceremony, and the chosen Troop can accomodate you. IMHO, it's better for the boy(s) involved. Mark

Here's what I can tell you. When both my boys were in their first year of cubs, I cut THEIR design out on the bandsaw, and I did a lot of coaching, but almost none of the rest of the work. After that, I watched while they cut their own car out on the bandsaw, and never once had any other involvement in their cars unless they brought a question to me (Well, actually, I brought them into work to weigh them). How did they do? Never once did either of them win, even in their own age group (I think my youngest son got a third place ribbon one year). Never once did they win best looking car. Only once did either of them win most boy made car (they did a better job making them good looking than most of the kids voting for the static awards could recognize, I guess). What did they win? In each of their rooms, both boys have all of their Derby cars diplayed, in prominent places. My youngest son yells at his buddies that come over when they touch them. I hear other guys in our Boy Scout Troop say they don't even know where their car is, or that right after the Derby, they taped a rocket pack to it to see how high they could make it go. I know I am sounding snobbish, but I'll take my kids' memories without a trophy over letting them think they only won a trophy because their dad was better than the other kids' dad (actually, that wouldn't have helped either). And, cutting to keep a boy safe is one thing. Sanding and painting isn't going to cause lost digits. At the risk of sounding too much like Rush Limbaugh, this is one of the things that is weakening our country. We think kids can't do anything for themselves. Keep them safe, Gosh yes I'm all for it. Keep them from doing for themselves? Whenever I start thinking like that, I have to slap myself. Mark

Our Troop does limit some activities to older Scouts. Long pack hikes (75 - 100 miles over 7 - 10 days) are probably more intense than a boy (or mom sometimes) can handle, and most physically aren't capable of partaking safely. Other activities are limited to older, higher ranking boys for a reason I wish didn't exist, but reality makes it so: We need something to keep the older guys interest in the program, and higher venture stuff, done away from the younger guys, does that for us. We also see that the anticipation the young guys have to get to a certain age and rank helps motivate them. In a perfect world, neither of these would be valid reasons. But our Troop isn't perfect. The first day it is perfect, I'll be on here telling everyone about it, but until then, we'll just keep on doing the things that do work for us. When the older guys have something going that excludes the rest of the troop, they either plan for it outside of regular meetings, or they make sure a program is available for the rest of the guys. A few years back the SPL realized that while 8 - 12 guys were out hiking for a week, no one else was camping or doing anything else that month. He developed a campout focused on the rank requirements for 1st Aid. He arranged for an EMT to camp with us, we camp outside for this one (despite the trend we've seen for our guys to try to do more cabin campouts, as mentioned in another thread, this one has remained intact), but we rent either a cabin or the dining hall to make sure we can accomplish everything we need to. This campout has taken off well. The EMT, with the assistance of boys working on 1st Aid MB teach and then test the rank requirements. The EMT works with some of the guys on the MB. And where we do this is a great place to hike, easy enough for the newbies, but chanlleging enough to give them a hint what is available, so we do the 2nd class five mile hike here, and start talking about hiking, and what is necesary to be prepared for the pack hike the older guys do. I think this has become a great example of offering an alternative program for the guys who can't partake in another event. But I'll stick to my guns about one thing: With the right equipment and training, 6th grade boys ARE NOT too young to do winter camping. We find that our Klondike is a watershed event for new Scouts. The chests are a little more puffed out when they get back, and in direct proportion to how cold it was. Mark

My thought exactly! I just figured that either cubmom mispoke, or there is a division for adults. By the way, it is an absolute blast for an adult to make a car and race it. I always made two identical looking cars. One would be my best effort and would race against the other adults, and the other was made to go slow enough to lose to the boys' cars. They had a blast beating the cubmaster, and I had patches made up that said "I beat the Cubmaster". One year, the adult division actually rmoved all of the rules. We permitted anything that didn't require fuel. That was a blast! It was my last year in Cubs, but I know the boys were clamoring to open the adult races to boys who made a second car without the restrictions. Our Pinewood Derby my best memory in Cubs. The most cherished picture I have is my two boys and I holding our cars at the top of the track my oldest son's last year. I almost tear up when I look at it. Mark

I remember Buster Browns, too. Time sure has a way of changing things. I remember them fondly now, but I also remember some major hassles I gave my Mom when she insisted that's what I wear! Our Troop allows tennis shoes to weekly meetings. We require hiking boots for outdoor activities. We require some type of dark dress shoe for Courts of Honor or other community activities like parades. Since none of the boys seem to wear dress shoes to school (or church for that matter), they all end up with the Wal mart - K mart option: A pair of dress shoes that they paid $10.00 - $15.00 for, and wear 5 - 10 times a year. A quick story - Our Troop took a trip to New York City a few years back. the SM insisted that they all wear class A's when in public. Lot's of complaining, until at one of the sights, I think the Stock Exchange, they were standing in a line that wasn't moving. A security gaurd saw them, ushered them into the building and made them the next tour group. Also, everywhere they went, people, especially visiters from other countries, wanted to talk to them. The guys got such a kick out of bragging that they were asked to pose for easily 75 pictures with people. And, it seems foreign girls are quite enamored with American boys in Scout uniforms. To a person, these guys appreciated what wearing their uniform did for them (we try to keep it a secret what it does TO them!). Mark

As far as the MB book goes, I am not aware of any place on the web to get the full book. However, I believe many public libraries carry Boy Scout merit badge books. Our library does a decent (not great) job of keeping the most current editions, especially for the Eagle required MBs, which I assume they do becuase they are borrowed more often. I have tried to get our town's high school and junior highs to put them in their libraries too, but I haven't been persuasive enough yet. And lastly, This might be a good oppurtunity for your son to help out the troop by starting your own library. Ask each boy to buy a MB book for the badge he wants to earn, and donate it the troop for future scouts. Over the course of a year or two, most of the popular ones should be available within your troop. Mark

Dan, My point was based on the assumption that this is the exception, not the rule. If the meeting plan is developed like this regularly, than you are 100% right. We have begun talking to our Junior Leadership about how much easier the job would be if they took advantage of the work others have done developing a program that works. We've got pretty inteligent boys running our Troop, but it's probably not wise that they assume they can develop a program better than what has been developed over the last 95 years. It's a tough lesson to learn, but it seems we go through this with every new set of leaders. The first month or so after being elected is like a honeymoon. The next three to four months are a real struggle. The boys seem to work very hard and aren't very sucessful, and the Scoutmaster starts hounding them to do their jobs right. After about 6 months, they seem to get it. Use the tools altready available, plan ahead instead of putting out fires, communicate a little. They recognize how much easier it is to do it "right" than to do it on their own. The only thing that confuses me is why EVERY new SPL, and EVERY new PL go through this. It seems that eventually, someone would benefit from the struggles of the ones that came before him. Mark

We just requested that all of our scouts get one for themselves, and asked the parents to consider it as a Christmas present for their boy. the new handbook, although laid out better than the last edition, is missing a tremendous amount of valuable information about outdoor skills and activities. We have found that given the chance to choose, we almost would rather have our boys have the fieldbook than the handbook. I didn't realize it isn't in the catalog, but our service center had plenty of copies for our Christmas blitz. Mark

My first point is that somehow (and I agree with Eagledad that this is an oppurtunity for your son to learn how both the patrol method and the leadership chain of comand work), the Troop should reconsider the limit on winter camping to boys who are 12 and 1st Class. With the proper training (and it sounds like that was happening), the proper equipment (and that doesn't mean a $200.00 sleeping bag!), and a sense of adventure, ANY Scout can camp during the winter. I am all for some events being restricted to boys over a certain age and / or rank. But winter camping shouldn't be one of them. Secondly, even if a large portion of the Troop are not allowed to go, there is still value in them listening and learning. Many will be able to go next year, and listening to the spiel twice is more likely to help him prepare than just once. Third, ignoring my first two points, you and everyone else here is right - A differnet activity should have been planned. It should be like this at all Troop meetings: Activities planned for each level of scouts, who get some combination of instruction and practice, perhaps in a game or contest. If the older guys are going repelling, and the younger guys can't (or didn't want to, for that matter), part of the meeting plan should have been to plan an activity for such a group. If you look at another thread that I started, Eagledad, OGE, and others all gave me some very good advice about a very similiar problem: The boys are running things, but it isn't quite the way we as adults think it should be. Most everyone gave the same advise, and it applies here. Scouting is a great place, maybe the only place, boys can be given the responsiblity to lead, allowed to make a mistake, and have a safety net under them to prevent disasters. did your PLC make a mistake? It sounds like it to me from what you describe. Is it a disaster? Not really. Worst case scenerio? Your son and 31 other guys wasted a night. More likely though, somewhere in a presentation that they may have thought didn't apply to them, they heard someone say something that will make them more comfortable at next year's campout. Along with that, is the added benefit of having a perfect reason to practice the patrol method, and use the leadership (youth) established to fix an error. Good luck to you! Mark

Here's the history on the movie campout in the cabin: About 5 years ago, the junior leaders started complaining that all of the campouts that were planned were jam packed with organized program, mostly designed to make the older boys help the younger guys with advancements. At this time, it was the Scoutmaster making this happen. They wanted to do a campout that was devoid of this kind of effort. Just get there, set up camp, eat great, sit around the campfire, and BS. Frankly, most of the adults (not the SM, but certainly me) thought that this was a great idea, once a year. We had 11 other campouts, plus a few high venture activities, to be doing something with a scout related goal, why not let the guys kick back and have fun just being together in the outdoors. Especially as a reward to the older guys who put so much effort into helping the young guys. To camp the way they viewed camping for adults to be was very appealing to them. With some of the adults help, we convinced the SM to put this on the calender. As far as I am concerned, this was still a good idea. Where I think we went wrong was how it was labeled. The boys started calling it the "lazy man's campout". The second year we did it, we even used that phrase on the calender. The third year, as the troop was morphing to more boy led, it had to be moved to November to accomodate another activity. At that time, we were not prepared to have the newest guys camp outdoors in the winter (we have traditionally spent Jan and Feb teaching winter camping skills, culminating in Klondike), so we arranged to rent a cabin for the young guys, while the older ones and most of the adults slept outside. The SM convinced the PLC to add an oppurtunity for the young guys to get the orienteering requirements taken care of at this campout. This required the help of a couple of older scouts, leaving the rest with basically an empty cabin during the day, which they used to listen to a radio that was brought (The PLC has allowed the older guys to bring music to campouts and gather in one or two tents after the rest of the troop hits the sack). At the next annual planning meeting, they came up with the idea of changing this to a cabin campout where we watch movies. Star Wars, stuff like that have been the fare. As adults we have protested this evolution, but not stopped it. Again, let's let the boys make their program. Our biggest gripe this year was that ALL of the older guys wanted to watch movies, and we had to practically shame a few of them (it turned out the SPL delegated the task to the least senior "older" boys) to help with the five mile hike. I guess this is as good an example of the changes that have taken place in the last few years as I can think of. The boys requested we do something different. The SM allowed it to happen, then the boys started using their new found responsiblity to change the intent of the activity. It continued to get farther from the original idea, until now it is of little more value than a sleep over (which by the way, many of our guys do in groups, and I think is great that they do, just not on a campout!). Now, we have to either hope that they see the point we are trying to make that this doesn't measure up to the standards our troop has always had for campouts, which there seems to be little hope of currently, or we force them to change. It think Eagledad's suggestion to review the Goals, Aims, and Methods of Scouting with our boys, particularly the junior leaders, may be a great place to start. Again, thanks all! Mark

Eagledad: WOW! THANKS! It is my intention to gather a number of adults and boys together at our next meeting to discuss whatever it is I get here for suggestions. I can't wait to discuss yours! We are all familiar with the Goals and the Aims of Scouting, but it isn't anything we actively talk about, or plan around. Seems like a quick immersion for all of us (especially me!!!) is in order. If I can be so bold, please consider that you have done your Good Turn for the day, as have everyone else who is lending a hand. Thank you! Mark Man, this might be my shortest post!

Every point made so far has been valid, and I appreciate them. Some, if not most, we already incorporate, like the adult advisor (OGE called the position mentor, which we also use, but that is normally an older scout who is asked to verify that a younger one that will be presenting a skill to the troop has everything right), the advancement weekend (we just did one. Actually, I was proud that all but one older boy showed up to teach or test the young guys. I was dissapointed that only 3 of the 18 boys under 1st class came to the event), and the event evaluation (we do ours on the lower half of the permission slip. Each boy, his PL, and a committe comprised of the SPL, the SM, and the ASM assigned to the boy's patrol all rate the boy on how well he did on the campout. Young guys are rated on basic skills, and cooperation. Older guys are rated on leadership). We don't however, do any rating of the event itself. I can see that as a good idea. If the guys feel that an event was lame, and officially rated it as such, maybe we could bring it up at the annual planning meeting if it were considered again. Not every lame event should be cancelled, some just need reworked. But if there was a record of how everyone felt right after the event... I agree that leadership ability in our boys is cyclical. We are in a long down cycle right now. And I am concerned about the near future. We've got one guy in the right stage of his career that will make a great SPL, I believe, and another right behind him that has potential. But other than that, there isn't anyone who really is going to provide either of these two guys with a lot of support on a PLC. Just to clarify our demagraphics, we have 7 guys at 17 years old, 15 guys between 13 and 16, and 19 guys under 13. We have 5 boys that are Eagle, I think it's 12 that are Star or Life, something like 7 1st Class, and the rest under 1st Class. I think we have a well rounded group, although four of our best will be 18 in the next few months. But we're not that young. Are they electing sub - par leaders? Yes, I think so, generally. This goes back to something I mentioned in another thread. Our troop seems to elect their leaders (SPL, ASPL, PL, and APL are elected, others are appointed in conference between the elected SPL and the SM) based on who's due to be elected. Things follow a pretty set plan, even though it's very unofficial: The best (or most popular) 13 - 14 your old seems to be elected PL in each patrol, and the 2nd place finisher is APL. After this tour of duty, the APL usually is elected the PL. The best of the old PLs is usually assigned troop Quartermaster. The rest of the old PLs get other troop leadership assignemnts, usually troop guides or den chiefs. After QM, the troop usually elects this guy ASPL, then SPL. I have complained often to the youth leadership how "preordained" our election process seems to be, but we have done nothing to derail it, because it is what the boys want to do. But because everyone seems to think this is the way to do it, we have two problems. It's not always the best guy that gets elected, and boys who were sucessful in a position feel they must step aside to let the next guy get his shot. We as adult leaders all agree that it is not the adults part to approve the activities decided on by the PLC. If we did, this problem wouldn't exist. We would just make the guys do what we think they should, which is our old way of doing things. Rather, we use this group (the itermediate group of SM, ASMs, Advancement) to review their plans, and encourage a higher quality program. I'll give you an example. Our PLC decided they wanted to skip council Klondike this year, as it has deteriorated in quality over the last several years (it's very interesting to us that they recognize someone else's program as substandard, but don't see it in their own). At the core adult leader meeting, we agreed that they could skip this, but had to come up with another winter outdoor activity. We suggested a standard winter tent campout, or a hike with a 1 night outpost (we've tried unsucessfully for a few years to get these guys to consider a snow shoe hike). The SPL contacted the PLC via phone over the weekend, and decided they wanted to do a cabin campout. THIS is what caused my frustration enough to come to this forum seeking advise. I have heard others apoligize for beng long winded, but I don't think anyone is worse than am I, so I'll stop here. I guess to sum up my feelings on this, in theory I agree and stand behind boy led 1000% In practice, I've seen it work, and believe it can, but it's not now, and I want to do something about it. There have been a couple of good ideas presented, and I will be discussing these with our SM and SPL. But please feel free to continue. We need the help! Thanks! Mark