BadenP

Scoutfish Yes humans have screwed up religion and many other things over time, and if you truly believe that the Bible,which spans a 4-5,000 year time span, is just a bunch of editorial opinions than as Barry said you might as well be an atheist. Religion and scripture however are two different things, God did not create religion man did. Humans have been willing to entrust to others what and how to believe over time, mainly because it is a lot of hard work to maintain a solid relationship and parts of the Bible do seem contradictory and confusing. However when you put 100% of what you believe in the hands of others, priests, ministers, rabbis, etc, you are going to be subjected to their interpretations and viewpoints. Jesus condemned the religious leaders of his day, so why should it be any different today? The bottom line in Scripture, is that when you die you will be judged by what type of personal relationship you had with God in your life, NOT what religion you belonged to, or doctrine you followed, or the social attitudes of humanity. In reality God is much more about relationships than religion. The reason is religions can help you develop that special relationship, or lead you down the wrong path of false worship and untruth, since all of them were created by man not God. So as Yoda once said to Luke Skywalker, "Choose carefully".

Following up on Tahawks post, The Game of Life may have its value in another type of setting and training but I think in a training of experienced scouters teaching them the skills to be better scouters it really has no place and very little worth,IMO. In almost every case where a friend of mine took WB21C there was always a problem or argument centered around that game. In my case I had no problem with the game, even though I thought it a waste of time, but the staff I don't think really understood how to present it well or articulate its relevance to the participants, if indeed there truly was any.

Eamonn & Tahawk Your posts speaks volumes. 99% of all negative WB experiences, IMO, come from a poorly trained or "I don't really give a dam* attitude" staff. Maybe that is another reason I didn't really care for WB21C, aside from certain content I felt was useless to scouting. The staff of my original WB were phenomenal whereas the WB21C staff were so out of their element and knowledge/experience zone that it fell flat on its face. IMO, any training that results in the participants getting into serious arguments and actual fights with the staff and each other has some serious underlying problems and issues.

Cricket Your first step with the young boys is a good starter, however don't make the mistake of spoonfeeding them a lil bit here and there either. Boys 11 years of age if challenged can and do rise to the occasion if you give them the opportunity. If you give them one small event to plan to start, guided by the PL, SPL, and if they are at least partially successful they will be motivated and eager to plan the next event. Taking baby steps with them however will only lead to a lot of frustration for you and for them.

The biggest difference between WB for Boy Scout Leaders and WB21C which created the biggest horror story was how well trained, experienced, and well prepared the staff of the first course was compared to the unprepared, poorly trained, and green staff(only 2 had served on staff before) of the WB21C. Never had a serious fight, a couple of minor arguments maybe, in the first course versus two knock down fist fights, and one staffer being grabbed by the collar and shaken by a participant in WB21C. The main reason seemed to be the greeness of the staff who gave different directions to two participants in the same patrol, and then made no attempt to correct the problem before the bruhahs began. As Stosh would say, this may not be typical of all WB classes and your mileage may vary!

qwasze Thats what topics in the I&P section usually do, go off into other related questions, but nothing is too "broad" to handle, especially if it has a direct relationship to the topic, which this does.

Cricket eagle92 gives you some excellent resources to refer to, which I hope you do. OGE's comments, while humorous,are not really true and will ultimately lead to a lazy troop dynamic and a dull program. These teens are perfectly able to plan an event, even if they haven't previously, and will do so unless you bail them out and do all the work yourself. Sure maybe the first event or two will have some rough spots, so start them off small. If the adults do ALL the planning every time treating them like Cub Scouts the boys WILL get bored and leave the troop. You may be amazed just how quick your boys learn how to organize, especially if you are there to answer a question or two, instead of always being the crutch the boys depend on to make sure everything gets done.

"Faith saves, but only faith of the heart, not of the lips." Partially true Beav, but not completely. If St. Paul and the other disciples had not risked their lives and carried the "good news" to most of the civilized world of their day it is quite possible that "Christianity" would have remained a small localized cult that would have died out completely over time. Faith is so hard for so many people to discuss with others without arguing. Being raised Catholic I would say that it is particularly true for them. The reasons are many, Catholic faith centers more on the rituals of the mass and sacraments instead of the Bible and works of their Christian counterparts. Catholicism is more internalized to the individual instead of outwardly proclaimed like other Christian groups. In Catholicism the clergy have the ultimate control, where in other Christian groups the people have control, and the list goes on. Faith of the heart is very essential to being Christian, but to keep it internalized only runs contrary to the teachings of the Bible and the message of Jesus.

Cricket I think you need to define your own definition of "guidance". To guide a group is to make sure they stay on course when planning activities, it does NOT mean taking control and manipulating the process yourself to get the results you want. Being a guide means you show/teach the boys the steps in properly planning an event and then let them take control and get it done. If they miss a few steps along the way, you gently point them out and give it back to the boys to complete. After a few times you will be surprised how good they become at the process. In my own experience as a SM and a DE the troops I found that always seemed to be in trouble were the ones adult controlled, not only did the adults constantly argue with each other, they were bad examples for the boys who eventually got tired of all the nonsense and quit the troop. You need to trust the process and resist the urge to control or dominate the planning process, the results might just surprise you.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

"You know sometimes you can't avoid things like this due to a lack of volunteers." CC's post got me to thinking that part of the blame for this also lies with the council, overzealous DE's who slaps together a pack, troop, or crew with little to no planning, putting any name on every position then ride off into the sunset never to be seen again, until FOS time, leaving the brand new unit to struggle through on its own. So many problems in so many units could have been avoided if at the offset more care was taken to make sure the unit had a solid starting foundation, instead of arm twisting parents who really could care less to take a position they really don't want in the first place. Then we wonder why so many units fail in their first year. Now there will always be problems with adults in any unit but with the proper care and planning at the beginning these problems will be minor ones and all the "power" will not rest with just a chosen few.

Well said Beavah. I have read references to the old and new boy scout which I think is a little misleading, the reality is, on the average, that the boy scouts of the 21st century are doing much less outdoor activity skills, there has been a definite downplay of the outdoor skills which are being replaced with more classroom like activities. You can see that for yourself in the new badges that have been released reflect more academic pursuits. In the training of Boy Scout leaders there is a definite decrease in the outdoor skills, and WB21C which used to be a boy scout leader only advanced training has become an all inclusive watered down management training seminar whose value is highly questionable. The results are fairly obvious we are losing Boy Scouts at an incredible rate, especially this last decade. IMHO the problem is not so much that kids have so radically changed but that we as adults have with our cushy urban centered entertainment centers with surroundsound home theaters, high tech 24/7 communication texter twitters many have become less and less motivated to leave all that behind to explore the outdoors with their troops or even their own families so what do you expect happens to the program. Even though I am now just the CC/COR for my crew I am thankful every day when I see the enthusiasm in the faces of those teens as they plan and execute their next outing and having the opportunity to see what I helped to create over nine years ago is still geting bigger and growing stronger every year. I still have the opportunity to go along on these great times whenever I like, you can't ask for anything better than that. I would love to see the boy scout program get back to that same level of excitement and fun because it becomes so infectious among all the youth and adults involved. That will NEVER happen if those in power continue to think boy scouting should be more of an academic venture.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

UC I was a WDL during the transition from a one year to a two year program and I can tell you that is when the trouble began. I made sure with my dens that especially in the second year that they had interactions with three other troops in my area so when they graduated they were already set to go and welcomed into the troop of their choice where they knew many of the boys already. The ten boys I had over that time ALL went into boy scouts 2 became Star, 3 became Life, and 5 were awarded Eagle, and all ten boys and their parents said to me that they only got as far as they did because of their experiences in Webelos really preparing them for the troop. So if done right it does work and works well. It is not the Webelos program that is the problem it is the way the WDL delivers it or in many cases does not deliver it to the boys. At all five ECOH's I attended all five boys personally thanked me for their Webelos experience and presented me with an Eagle lapel pin, those are the kind of scouting experiences you never forget.

UC Eagle I agree with you two years is too long for Webelos. To answer an earlier post from Scoutlass a weak Webelos program is a problem because most packs run that program the same way as the do Tiger, Wolf, and Bear and usually with the same leaders all the way through. That IMO is the real reason Webelos are not going on to boy scouts, they have had the same person who in all honesty has taught them the same way for five years and they are just plain bored with it all. If Webelos is truly going to be a transitioning point to boy scouts then every Webelos den should get a new leader, preferably male to coincide with boy scouts, and the program needs to be very different and unique from what they have experienced up to this point in Cubs. If the pack does not do that than those boys will NOT be ready to move into a troop, and those boys will drop out, in that scenario then that pack has indeed hurt boy scouting.

Cricket I think the attitude you see in todays scouting comes more from a new generation of SM's who grew up with the urban scouting program, are really not into or trained in the skills of the outdoor program, nor do they care to be. They look for any excuses in the BSA literature not to try more outdoor activities. Case in point, there is a local troop to me where the SM and ASM's are computer programmers and who really dislike camping. When they do go camping they go to a KOA campground and stay in cabins, the meals are cooked and served to them, there are heated showers, a heated pool, etc. The boys concentrate on computers and robotics and other high tech or science MB's almost exclusively. As far as the T-2-F requirements go they are skated through with minimal effort, altering the requirements, and giving them little training. The troop has shrunk to six active boys and has had no Eagles for five years. There are several other troops in my district and council adopting this style of scouting, which seems to correspond with the new direction Mazzuca wants to move boy scouts. However the good thing is all of these troops are very small, 10 and less. It is my hope that eventually even National will see that the further you get away from scoutings roots the membership will continue to decline. It is not that the boys do not want to go camping and learn outdoor skills it is that they do not have the leaders that are adequately trained or even desire to show them how much fun it can be.

Qwasze You really do live in your own little world don't you, look in my last post I was talking specifically about Christian theologians. No you don't have to be a credentialed theologian to not believe in the resurrection, however without some kind of credentials few will take anything you say very seriously. Sects or denominations occur because of the reinterpretation or misinterpretation of scripture, the credible ones tend to last a while while the rest eventually die out as their interpretations are eventually proven false. So even if you live a "good life" but never believe in Jesus as the son of God or in a higher being can you still be a Christian? The answer is definitely NO.

neil Good point, but that is exactly what people do and its called denominations. Roman Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Mormon, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, etc., all of whom claim to be Christian but who have taken the teachings of the Bible and twisted or reinterpreted them to fit that particular sects idea of what a "true Christian" really is, to the point where their own individual minutia overshadows the basic truth.

qwasze Jesus Christ is the center for all Christianity, the Resurrection was to show Jesus's divinity by conquering death, and the promise that good Christians would receive that same gift when their human body dies and their soul lives on, these two beliefs are inseperable and the foundation of all Christianity. There are a few theologians who have written that Jesus was not truly resurrected and claim that early Christian leaders made up that story to keep their movement alive and growing. It all comes down to a matter of faith. I have had Catholic and Protestant clergy tell me they have or had serious personal doubts about the Bible and some of the doctrines of their Church, which goes to show all humans experience a crisis of faith in their lives, even those who have chosen to make it their life work.

I really enjoy the irony in this thread where an Old Ox is advising a big bovine on what scouting positions to pursue. All I can add big is to remember to Always Mooo Your Best! You and Old Ox can always chew the cud over any problems you might have. Sorry I just couldn't resist.

Proud Eagle The all encompassing term for adults in a crew is, guess what , the same as in packs and troops namely SCOUTERS. Is that simple enough? PS : But I do like the name VENTURIONS.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

qwasze But you gave no empirical evidence to refute any of my points, instead you highlighted humanity's intolerance, prejudice, and ignorance with trying to follow what the scriptures tell us of how we are truly supposed to live. You are correct that this same ignorance put us into the Dark Ages, countless numbers of wars, and enslavement of entire cultures by so called "good Christians". The fact is we imperfect humans through our entire history have taken all the gifts given to us by our "God" and screwed ourselves out of paradise time and time again. Maybe the better question would be, Can you still be a good Christian if you are human?

To throw another monkey wrench into this situation, maybe with the fact that more boys are receiving the Eagle these days, with the easing of the requirements, that National/Council doesn't want to spend the time and resources necessary to do a thorough reference check of the candidates for Eagle.

Read the wording "A list of references willing to provide a letter.." No where in National's materials does it say letters of recommendation are required, and the method of contacting those references is left up to the council. My take is this is yet another case where there is total inconsistency in the manner which this is interpreted nationwide, and it seems to left to the sole discretion of the SE. In my current council the SE decided letters were unnecessary and the council person may call one or two references listed on the application at their discretion.

shortridge The reason I suggested that award to Zephy was after reading about his religion it seemed to have roots in ancient Buddhism philosophy and that it would be a good match for him. I have a friend who is a Buddhist monk and he has worked with youth before in researching parallels in ancient Asian wisdom and help guide them. However you are right that Zephy does not have to complete a religious award for the bronze, however if he ever wants to go on and earn the Trust Award earning a religious award is a requirement not an option. Besides I have always thought that the Sangha was the coolest looking religious award. Zephy Good Luck to you whatever you decide.

Barry Believe whatever the heck you want but you are dead wrong. The drop in numbers on Boy Scouts only does ring true, whether you agree or not is irrelevant. Watered down troop programs are the main cause for individual boy scouts leaving troops, as well as undertrained SM's and ASM's, all of which results in a dull and boring scouting experience for the boys. It is not an image issue or lack of advertising, although they are secondary factors. Boy Scouts has always had an image problem, even when I was a boy scout other kids made fun of the uniform, calling us good deed daily boys, etc, much like today. So Barry I really don't know what world you are living in but it seems way out of whack with the reality of today. I too love the scouting program and want to see it prosper not continue to shrink, unfortunately National seems more concerned with boosting numbers and money with new lackluster programs that have less and less to do with the foundation that made scouting the best and most unique youth organization in the country, and the dropping numbers prove it.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

SP I have one for you called Cannonballs. Take a large onion, cut it in half core out the center, take hamburger, cut up veggies and stuff both halfs of the onion, add salt and pepper, etc, put the halves together and wrap tightly in foil. Take the cannonball and put it into an open fire or bbq and cook until done. Time depends on the size of onion and the heat of the fire, check after 5 minutes, it should take 10-15 minutes depending on the previously mentioned factors. Make sure that they are throughly cooked.