BadenP

No Ed I am talking about Cubs through Venturing and eventually the BSA will join the majority of WOSM and have coed scouting. It is not so much a matter of IF anymore as it is WHEN.

BS87 I am willing to bet even in your council commissioners are few and far between. Look, most unit leaders look at commissioners as "nosey busybodys and council spies" and do everything in their power to make them feel unwelcomed. UVTS does not change those leaders feelings or the effectiveness or lack of effectiveness of commissioner visits. Look it really is time for a reality check here, if you are going to keep the few commissioners we have left it is time to give them a new focus and methods that will make their positions more desireable to new scouters. Unit visits are a crock, they go in and ask how is everything and they either get the response, "What do you want, go away", or, "I don't have time for you and you are disrupting my meeting, please leave", and the UC checks off his visit list and NOTHING was accomplished, even with the UVTS.

eaglescout1996 I applaud your efforts and the dedication you show. However I think that the reality is that the Commissioner Corps has seen its best days and are rapidly fading away into history in most councils. Truly it is one of the most under appreciated and thankless positions in scouting today, and that is why its members are shrinking away. You are right when you say the new awards and patches will attract certain scouters, but the question becomes are those the kind of people you want or need as commissioners? IMHO, the real problem is the lack of quality in training unit leaders, especially the unit committee members, so they really understand their duties, and how to deal with these reoccurring problems that keep coming up in all units. Maybe that could be the new focus of commissioners instead of having to run all over the place constantly putting out little unit fires here and there. This new focus might also help in recruiting new members.

Allangr How is the quality of your program? Is it fun, challenging, and outdoor oriented? If I were in your position I would talk to other SM's in your district with successful troops at Roundtable or over coffee and get their advice, ask what works in their troops. The problem with publications is that they are way too generic to be much good. You may have some unique situations in your area that these other SM's can help you with, as well as how to make your program stronger and even more appealing to the youth. Good Luck.

SP & Scoutnut The Webelos program is NOT complicated, the reasons many leaders feel overwhelmed is because WDL training SUCKS BIGTIME. It does not properly prepare them to deliver the kind of program Webelos need and instead teaches it as an extension of Bears which it is not. Look stop blaming burned out leaders and give them the tools they really need to start the transition process to boy scouts. Stop always meeting in a house or building reading from the book and doing crafts. Stop treating the activity badges like arrowpoints going for quantity instead of quality. Get your kids butts outside to the woods to learn about Nature, Geology, etc. and other appropriate venues for the other badges. Webelos is NOT a static sedentary program so stop treating it that way. Even though I have been in Venturing for many years now I still teach WDL Training in my council. I have written a syllabus just for the class of how to make Webelos a fun and active program for both the boys and leaders, which shows them how it works. So STOP blaming and start doing!

I agree there is too much "classroom time" in many Webelos dens. As a former WDL one thing I did was to hold all our meetings at parks or other venues depending on which activity badge we were working on. It showed them why these activities were relative in the outside world instead of just reading about it in their handbook. Webelos is probably the most critical juncture in a boys scouting experience and if it is not done properly and as a transitional phase to boy scouting then the boys WILL get bored and quit scouting for good. We owe them more, so get the heck outside as much as possible WDL's and make your programs come alive for the boys.

desertrat77 All I can say to your post is Amen brother! I agree with you 100%. Fred I like your idea since the commissioner corp is rapidly becoming an extinct species, we need to look for an viable alternative and pdq.

ED Years ago I would have agreed with you, but after 9+ years as an advisor, now CC/COR of a coed Venturing crew I can only assure you that the energy and creativeness that these young women bring to the program is outstanding. I have never seen a pack or troop with a more cohesive, goal oriented, and enthusiastic attitude in its members than this crew. Lets face it without their cookie and candy sales the public would not even be aware of the Girl Scouts or Campfires exsistence, so it is no wonder girls are flocking to Venturing, and would do the same to Cubs and Boy Scouts if allowed. So many troops have female leaders already, and packs have had female leaders for a long time so that the transistion would not be all that difficult.

Twocub Yeah there are those who start a unit with any warm body to fill the positions, the reason is that unit is on the books for one year even if it fails in the first 3 months. The SE's I worked for said basically thats okay just start another one next year to replace it. It makes the SE look good to National because of the numbers of new units each year, unfortunately that practice is still going on today. In my time as a DE I first met with the IH of every CO that wanted to sponsor scouting before ever doing a recruitment night, and that should be the first order of business for every DE.

Twocub The idea that it is always the DE's fault is a little short sighted and untrue in most cases. Yes there are those DE's that set up paper units, but at least when I was in the profession they were the minority and didn't last more than a year or two. Councils also play a similiar game to obtain more grant money called LFL units with large enrollments and usually only last 1-2 years before the interest dies out, the same goes for cub soccer and all the pilot programs which are created JUST to boost numbers and contributions fom UW and other organizations. IMO,any pack, troop, or crew setup with a halfass effort by a DE or council and is not looked out for their first year is doomed to fail. The loss of each of those units should be required to be reported on the council annual report along with the reasons that led to each of their failures. Maybe holding the council accountable will force them to do a better job, and give National a better idea of what is truly happenning in the field.

SP is correct, text talk has replaced the written and spoken word with todays youth. An elementary school near me has gotten really concerned and this year every student from K through 5th is required to keep a daily hand written journal. The teachers claim it has significantly helped with their writing skills. Omg my bff is roflhao. You just gotta love the irony of it all!

Scoutfish You are perfectly free to believe anything you want, but when you attack how some others might believe with no support/evidence for your claims and in a very caustic and derrogatory manner you have to expect some will be offended and lash back. Look, in my life I have had some very serious run-ins and conflicts with the Catholic clergy to the point where I felt there was truly no mercy or justice to be found, but rather a corrupt institution of self serving individuals hiding behind their collars, so I left. Now I am an ordained minister in a small nondenominational Christian church and have never been happier. My point is our life experiences make us who we are and what we believe. No one should ever say to you that there is only ONE way to believe because that simply is not true. I truly wish you peace and happiness in your life.

noname Who is on your charter as den leaders and where are they? Sounds like it is time for a parents meeting and get your unit commisioner and DE to help you organize and deliver it. The message is simple either some of them come forward to help or the boys will not have a scouting program. Your DE and UC can talk to them about training and how fun the program can be. Your DE can not afford to lose a unit so he will be fighting hard to save the pack. One trick I used as a DE was to partner two parents to act as co-leaders so neither felt the whole burden was on them. It can be done, it may not be easy, it is all on how you sell the program to them.

I think the Venturing program should have a new name and logo to avoid all this confusion. Eliminate the mountain and replace it with a large lightening bolt, and use Annies idea for the name "VENTURIONS". Replace the term Advisor with Sage, that would eliminate any similiarties between Venture scouts and Venturing, just an idea, lol.

Ann Interesting points, many of the people who have been around a long time remember when years ago this forum was a dog eat dog confrontational knock down dragout, and maybe some of that style is still in our posts. However speaking for myself even when I disagree with someone strongly and might answer bruskly I still respect them as a person who like myself is devoting many hours to scouting to make it a better organization. There are many ways to peel an orange and all of us like to think our way is the best way. There are a couple of posters who I usually disagree with but I still have found gems of wisdom in their posts. IMHO whether you are a first time Tiger Cub Leader or a 30 year seasoned veteran of scouting we all share a love for this organization and the youth it serves. As long as the new members understand NOT to take any comments aimed at you too personally there is a lot we can learn from each other, whether you are an alpha, beta, gamma, or sigma dog we are all in this together. However watch out for the I&P threads as those are still a "minefield", lol.

CPCC Sorry if you felt my post was too strong, I was not blaming you personally it is your entire committee and den leaders who failed to follow the proper procedures concerning fundraisers and fiscal responsibility and are all at fault. Any advice you get here, outside of getting your COR and IH involved, is only applicable to the next time, that is if your COR and IH do not decide to take control and clean house. As Beavah pointed out to you this is not the place for legal advice. At this point in the situation your own options are pretty limited and if you do not get your CO involved who own the pack and its assets your whole pack leadership could wind up with a lot more trouble.

UC Eagle Not only is your premise wrong and goes counter to the National Venturing program it just doesn't make sense, all adult Venturers are NOT Advisors. It is like calling all sea scout adults Swabbies, which might be appropriate in your case, lol.

packsaddle Your post was both disturbing and pathetic at the same time. How many southern boys have lost their lives in all the wars this country has been involved in over time? Personally I think your area is just an isolated case and not at all typical of the entire south, especially the larger urban centers. Additionally time itself will take care of those uneducated narrow minded people with such a bizzare outlook about what it means to be an American. Eventually those people with all of their prejudices will all be gone and forgotten.

CPCC I agree with the others here you created this problem now you see what a poor idea it was in the first place. The ONLY way you can arrive at any solution is to get the COR and IH involved as they are the ONLY ones with the authority to straighten it all out, especially since your pack committee and leaders are seemingly NON FUNCTIONAL.

I think scoutnut is right that this is some sort of LFL program doing their own thing wearing what they want, and to attract more hispanic kids. However folks you are probably looking at the precursor of things to come if the CSE gets his way. A coed laid back program with minimal to no uniforming and no detailed set program other than to just have fun. Kinda sounds like the Cub Scout soccer program that never took off. When and if this thing becomes a reality the BSA as we know it will cease to exsist. I wonder just how many scouters will still continue to volunteer their time after the change over?

The folding of the flag into a triangle is usually reserved for solemn occassions, like a military funeral, or an official ceremony. Otherwise they are usually folded and put in a rectangular box for later distribution. I purchased a Texas state flag that was flown over the Alamo the day I was there, and it was folded in a rectangle. You have to remember that a capital flies literally dozens of flags each day, they raise them up for a minute or two and then lower them and then raise another all day long. The US capital flies even more flags daily because of the huge demand for them. On my Texas flag on the white border with the grommets it is stamped Flown over the Alamo and the date, a nice souvenier.

It was not why the uniform was being worn that was my question, it was Eagle 92 insistence that it was his logic why ONLY the FULL uniform should be worn in public that I took issue with. My point was whether the troop was in full uniform or half or just tshirts and jeans they still would have still gotten their pictures in the paper, the uniform was secondary to the event and the full uniform was unnecessary. Thats all.

EAgle92 Your reason is quite honestly as you said self centered. If photos in a paper are the main motivation for wearing a complete uniform you sure are not going to sell it to many others.

Engineer Your definition of scouting is much more applicable to scouting of the 50's-60's, and earlier, rather than the scouting of today. There is one troop in my district who only goes camping once or twice a year, the outdoors is no longer at the forefront of most troop programs today, sad but true. Community service seems to consist of one minor service a year, like a food drive or something even less involved. The new CSE seems to go right along with this trend as well.

BD Even if that were the case, so what, you are only responsible for yourself, not every other scouter in the BSA. In any organization, government, religion, business,the BSA, etc., there always has been and always will be a certain level of hypocrisy and dishonesty among the membership. That is just human nature, if everyone was perfect the world would be a whole nicer place to live, but unfortunately we are not perfect. These are also some of the reasons people have a hard time dealing with WB21C, some of its lessons do not really mirror the reality of scouting or even life.