MattR

I had a scoutmaster meeting (with the ASMs) and we were talking about how the number of scouts going on campouts was dropping and one guy, that does a lot with the council, said this is a problem nation wide. Now, I happen to be violently against electronic toys of any type on campouts and someone said maybe we should think about having a video game campout. I gave him the look of death before I came up with a better idea. Scouts can figure out major, memory-for-life fun if they're put in the right environment. A hill full of snow, a snow skate, and some picnic tables (ski jump), a lake with some blow up rafts (king of the rafts), a hike along a river (water fight), a croquet set in the woods with impatient scouts (full contact croquet, no high sticking). The thing is the scouts don't have enough experience creating these types of situations and so the adults are trying to be creative and think of some. We're going to spend our next meeting coming up with more ideas. But the best fun is spontaneous so you can't really plan it out. It takes the right set of toys in the right environment with minimal goals or pressure to get something done. Then you just let the scouts go and magic occurs. Sometimes they need a hard goal but sometimes they just need time to have fun. Anyway, I'd like to hear more ideas of situations where your troop just had spontaneous fun.

A gate keeper implies failure and I suppose it depends on what you mean by failure. We built a trebuchet for the local cub camp that uses a 200 lb counter weight and can throw a cabbage 350 feet. On our first attempt the arm, for lack of a better word, exploded. It wasn't failure, it was an opportunity to improve. The new arm is a much better design and is rock solid. That's how I treat a scoutmaster conference. If a scout doesn't know his stuff then we talk about what he needs to work on and we schedule another scoutmaster conference. All but one time the scout that "failed" the first conference passed with flying colors on the second. On the other time it took one more conference. If the scouts knew that I would never fail them then most of them would never learn the material, or live up to the ideals of scouting, or do anything I ask of them. Since they also know they eventually pass, I don't lose them.

On the other hand I can see where the BSA is worried about scoutmasters that don't act in a scout-like manner and so they go to the lowest common denominator and say if you've had the boxes signed off then you're good to go. The Star scout thread that this thread came from is an example of where this comes from. Based on what I read, this scoutmaster isn't thinking about developing a scout. It's a really screwy troop.

I think the basic issue is more about training of adults than scouts. There's an adult in my troop, that actually started the troop, and I learn more from him than anyone else. My job, as scoutmaster, is keeper of the flame. It's part understanding what scout spirit is and part understanding how to motivate adolescents to learn this. I'm no expert and I'm constantly wondering if I was too easy or too hard, too serious or too laid back. I'll be honest, scoutmaster specific training does not cover this. So where do scoutmasters learn this from? Mainly the people that came before them. It's also partly from talking to other adults.

So, to answer your question, I think it depends on the adults involved. The scoutmaster, the committee, and the program that trains the scouts. My goal is to create a fun program so by the time the scout comes to the scoutmaster conference I don't have to even bother testing him because he knows everything.

I put some jpgs on a website:

www.peakfive.com/eagle1.jpg

www.peakfive.com/eagle2.jpg

They're a bit dark and the name plates are not on in these pictures but you get the idea.

To make a long story short, I put the hammer down. The scout was angry, his parents were angry, half the district was angry. I found another adult to play good cop to my bad cop. Well, the adult mediated between myself and the rest of the world. The scout worked at camp. He came back. He smiled. He had fun. He became Eagle. He finally had his COH. He sent me a thank you letter. He said he learned something and he appreciated what I did for him. Maybe I'll be Scoutmaster for another year.

It only took 18 months but I finished our Eagle recognition. It's a 5' long walnut pole 3" in diameter with a silver eagle on top, a silver nickel molding of an Eagle award set into the wood, leather work around the award (so the award looks like an oval plate you see on walking sticks), and the names of each scout on oval name plates below. There's room for 75 names. I wish I could put a jpg here. It looks real nice.

Yes, making him successful at something is key so he can see it himself. Making it something that other scouts would appreciate would also be good. Positive peer preassure would be fantastic. Thanks for the ideas.

But how do you get through a really thick shell? If you ask a scout to do something and he doesn't see a need for it, he won't do it. So, this is like bringing a horse to water but it won't drink. I've talked to him several times, sometimes on camping trips, with no luck. If I tell him a scout is cheerful, even when things are tough, I get a smart alec response about putting on a fake smile just for me.

Anyway, a few days ago I seemed to have gotten through to him by putting the hammer down and saying there won't be a Scoutmaster Conference until we find a way to solve this problem. He went through several stages of grief the next day(denial, anger, depression) and hopefully is starting in on acceptance. There's an ASM that's taking on the job of good cop. We're setting up a specific set of goals for him to achieve and it's going to be very clear what everyone has to do. This is the same thing I did with the other scouts. At this point I have his attention, I think he'll be fine, and he'll do a good job. But getting to this has been brutal on everyone. He's somewhat fragile right now and I don't like putting kids in this position because there's a risk of things getting worse and not better.

How have other people dealt with this kind of problem without the threat of holding up Eagle?

No, I'm the scoutmaster and I'm trying to figure out what to do.

Once upon a time there was a scoutmaster that had a scout that wanted to become Eagle. The scoutmaster sat down with the scout and said, "you're not ready, you don't participate and help out." The scout was devistated but the scoutmaster further said "I want you to spend the next 6 months working with the younger scouts. I want you to prove to me you understand what scout spirit is about." The scout did this, became Eagle, and was grateful to his scoutmaster. About a year later another scout wanted to become Eagle, the scoutmaster said "you're not ready, you're not very reliable, I want you to spend the next 5 months being in charge of organizing scouts before campouts." The scout was disappointed but put his heart into it and did a great job. He became Eagle, and was grateful. Another scout came by, wanting to be Eagle, and the scoutmaster just had to kick him in the rear to get him going. He, too, finally became Eagle. About 2 months later another scout wanted to become Eagle and the scoutmaster said, "you're not ready, you constantly complain about everything and get incredibly defensive whenever someone tries to help you improve. The idea of cheerful service is all you need to learn." The scoutmaster knew the boy was a good kid. He went on all the campouts. He also knew the boy didn't really have a group of friends or anything else besides scouting. The scout had a wall around him that the scoutmaster couldn't figure out how to get through. What else did the scoutmaster tell him?

Thanks to everyone for their ideas and encouragement.

I like the idea of the wood carving. I also like the idea of simple. I look at the scout emblem and the Eagle emblem and they both have a lot of detail and look hard to do even for someone with skill at this. How do you simplify it?

Trevorum, yes, the eagle will be the top and will be the focal point from a distance. The reason I'm thinking of the walking stick motif is partially due to the fact that we really don't have a place to put a plaque that would hang on a wall. Also, during COHs it would be nice for the scouts to see it, and think about it, and wish their name was on it. I want it to look old and wise. This will make up for the fact that I'm just old

Hi, I couldn't find a forum for ceremonies so here it goes. I want to build a recognition for all eagle scouts in my troop, past, present, and leave room for future. I'd like to have decades worth of Eagle scouts on it, long past the time I'm gone. I want to make a rather large walking stick representing the trail to Eagle, where each scout that makes it will have their name and the date of becoming eagle placed on a small brass-like plate and nailed to the stick. The stick will be 5' long and 3" in diameter. At the top will be a brass eagle. At the bottom will be a simple stand that will keep it upright. I'd like to add something at the top of the stick, below the eagle that would a) look nice, and b) indicate that this is for eagle scouts in our troop. This is where I need some ideas. I could add a brass plate but I wanted something that looked more rustic. So I was thinking of some leather lacing and beadwork. I thought it would be really nice if I could do some beadwork that somehow represented the eagle award. Has anyone done anything like this before? Anyone have bead patterns for the eagle award? My fear is that the resolution of beads is too coarse to get anything that looks right. Should I forget the beads and do this in leather? Should I do some of both? Simple beadwork around a leather square that has the award stamped into it? I'm open to ideas. BTW, this project is part of my Woodbadge ticket, so I have to do it.

"... Did someone die and make you girl scouting ethics czar or did youi just inherit to much of the stick you nosey where it don't belong gene? (was that over the top?) ... Yall sound like a bunch of pinko socialist, latte drinking, reformed 12 steppers..."

Nothing's over the top, anarchist, but it certainly frames your argument in a new light. I'd rather talk about ideas and not personalities.

I'm interested in this because my daughter is in this group. I also don't want to just pull her from this group because there are other things that this group does well.

The main argument that's been brought up for this fund raiser seems to be that it's a market economy so these kids may as well take advantage of it. That's OK for those that can afford it. But what about those that can't? What about the kid that says I can't afford $16 for someone to take me on a hike, even though I think it would be fun. Would this group get more kids interested in scouting if they ran this as a service project?

I know someone that gives probably $100,000 a year to scouting. When he was a kid he was dirt poor and scouting meant everything to him. He was accepted and he was encouraged. He is a rags to riches story. Now he spends a lot of time with scouting at the national level. I'm wondering what would have happened to him if his SPL had said pay me a dollar and I'll teach you how to tie a bowline. How many kids get something out of scouting because it's relatively cheap?

I'm also wondering what this teaches the girls making the money. I've gone canoeing plenty of places but I won't teach canoeing because I don't feel like I'm qualified. If I don't feel qualified leading a canoe trip I don't feel like I should be teaching it. My daughter, after two hours of instruction, feels like she can teach canoeing mainly because some older girl, backed by an adult, has told her she's qualified. This sounds like really short training and the only explanation that I can think of is that it involves money. Now my daughter can make money and she likes that. To me, this sounds like an ethical problem. I also think there's a problem in the values she's taught. All sorts of people volunteered to teach her something and now she can make a profit off of that. I'd say that's self centered and not exactly in the spirit of scouting. Scouting could last without paid counselors but it wouldn't last without volunteers.

To me, the main point about scouting is the values taught; compassion, honor, and responsibility. The skills taught, although important, are secondary to this. This fund raiser seems to turn this upside down. I guess that's the line that was crossed.

>I think we need more info here.

I was trying not to give more information because I wanted to keep things focused. But, I can see your point. So here goes. First of all, these are girl scouts and not boy scouts. I don't think that changes anything, having both a son and a daughter. The older scouts vary in age from 12 to about 16. So, definitely not a counselor, barely able to do the skills themselves. The younger scouts are younger than the older scouts. The skills being taught range from the equivalent of 1st class skills to some merit badge type stuff.

The council knows about it and seems to be OK with it.

The reason that troops can't teach their own is because they have nobody with the skills to do it. I can understand charging to cover expenses, but not to cover time. In fact, I think this would be a great service project. They would probably get a lot more scouts to show up and stick with scouting if this were a service project.

Oak Tree mentioned that scouts charge at summer camp. That seems like a different situation. That's a full time, long term job. If you're going to get a 16 or 17 year old to spend a month at summer camp, you have to pay them, same for the adults. You don't have to pay them at a camporee, or a meeting, or any short duration event, as with the adults.

I know of a scout group, not mine, that has made a fundraiser out of teaching scout skills. So, older scouts charge money to teach scouts in other troops skills like going on hikes or canoeing. This seems all wrong to me as it goes against the grain of scouting, of helping out and volunteering. I've created a bunch of bad blood by mentioning this, I don't like that, and I'm trying to figure out what to do. Does anyone else do this type of fund raiser? Am I going too far by saying this is not appropriate?

Thanks,

Matt