MattR

Now I understand. Thanks for writing, this is a good thing to talk about. I'm not sure what the formula was. I suspect there wasn't one and it was just a part of our culture. In the military the formula seems to be that you're in it together and you truly depend on each other. I try to create that in scouts but I struggle with it because I haven't seen it before and neither have the parents. dcsimmons, while I do have consequences for lack of participation I think it's more than that. If I reduce this idea to a number in TroopMaster kids will just game the system. It's more of an attitude.

Jblake, what are examples of "tossing out the military slant?" I'm not disagreeing with you, just want a better understanding of where you're coming from. I agree with what you say about the leadership, teamwork, self confidence, etc of the military. Isn't this exactly why BP started scouting? He liked these aspects of the military but wanted to leave the violence out? At least that hasn't changed. Respect for any type of leadership has certainly dropped.

I'd like to see the uniform simplified and a necker and a uniform t-shirt for the outdoors would be fine. I think the scouts would go the way of the British and accept a simple shirt with a necker. For indoors, either a t-shirt or a scout shirt with all the pockets and epaulettes removed would be cheaper and easier to sew on patches, not to mention it would just look less formal. Formal is fine at Courts of honor, but not in the outdoors. I suspect the main reason for the formality is for adults to show their bling. I remember when the last round of shirts came out and they went on and on

I spent this past week on jury duty. It was a felony within a family. Intellectually it was a fascinating experience and I got to see how the rubber hits the road when it comes to the constitution. Emotionally, however, it was draining. There were no good guys, only bad and worse. While the legal system worked, it didn't come close to helping with the underlying problem. This family was a mess. Multiple marriages/relationships for each adult, kids out of wedlock, a family graph rather than a family tree, everyone has a step relationship, fathers not being dads, moms not knowing where thei

ScoutRedux, to answer your second question, it depends on whether the scout sees the mistake he made and wants to fix it. If his only sorrow is that he got caught, then I won't have much sympathy for him. If on the other hand he's honestly sorry for what he did, and wants to make it better, then I'll have much more forgiveness. Deciding where a scout is on that continuum is another problem all together.

Thanks everyone. Sounds like at least one thing we can agree on . Kudzu, I agree, it's a great book. JBlake, trade you some wild black raspberry jam for your cherry pie.

Why are the outdoors and nature so important to Boy Scouts? I think it is, but I want a simple explanation as to why. As technology makes it easier to get away from nature it seems like this is an important question to answer. It's kind of like, what is Scout Spirit? You know it when you see it but it's hard to describe. Anyway, here's my answer but I'm just trying to start a discussion. Nature is a way to get away from our usual lives, it's fun. Nature is a source of unpredictability, scouts learn how to solve problems and take care of themselves. Nature is a source of awe, aft

Kudu, you like sending people off on their own to figure things out. Here's another idea for spiritual awakening on your own that I'd like to try some day with the scouts. It's something along the lines of the vigil ordeal or a vision quest. Find a pretty place away from everyone else and sit quietly for 24 hours tending a fire. You can bring religious material to read but no electronics, not even a watch. All the water you want but no food. You're asked to think about your place in your community. I talked to someone else that does this with his troop. He said it was great for the more mat

Lord of the Flies.

They may also need salt. I had half a dozen kids suffer some amount of dehydration at summer camp (hot and dry) and 2 of them were drinking a gallon a day but not getting enough salt. I use electrolyte tablets but the scouts don't like the taste, so we give them gatorade. One of the 2 scouts is at Jambo and I just hope he remembered how crappy he felt at summer camp (and is taking care of himself)

I can't quite see that. I got to the point where I am at least partially because of a lot of people before me. The prayers, the stories, and the ceremonies are all things I never would have figured out on my own. So, the organized part of my religious beliefs are a necessary part of my personal beliefs. Sufficient? No, I'll give you that.

Maybe that's why it took so long, I was waiting for the older scouts to age out. Sounds better than me being slow. But I agree, there is some truth to changing the culture with the younger scouts.

KDD, here's one cliffnotes version, presumably written around the 4th century. It's well known and, naturally, comes with a story: "Hillel, when asked by a prospective convert to Judaism to teach him the whole Torah while he stood on one leg, replied: 'That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.'" So, start with the Golden Rule and once you have that figured out go study the Bible to learn more. And never stop. i.e., it's a journey. What can I say, people are complex. Pack, I hear you. Organized rel

I think I have all of the Jewish (and Chinese American!) scouts from my city in my troop. Chinese moms are easier to deal with only because they struggle so much with English they give up before giving me an earful. I'm in a small congregation (50 families). They claim to be reform but it seems to be a fuzzy distinction. It's a mix of a lot and everyone likes it. We have a range of political views from middle of the road Republican to hard core Democrat. Then there's the mom that teaches the youth, will step in for the rabbi if needed, will sing for the cantor if needed, and she's also a

Eagle92, PMs don't seem to work. Any chance you can attach it to a post?

My opinion is that there are multiple opinions, different things work for different people, and they should all be accepted. If it didn't come across that way then my apologies.

LHS, that's very close to the position I came into and I was frustrated with it. This is my experience, take from it what you want. Since you have such a young troop, it might not be so easy (e.g., scouts under the age of about 13 don't have the maturity to be a PL. It's not a hard rule, just an observation.) A few years ago: I told the adults I wanted the older scouts to teach the skills so they'd learn them and I got blow back. A patrol leader was a glorified secretary. I wanted patrols camping separately and nobody had the faintest idea why. The older scouts tolerated the younger scout

Pack, that's the wrong question for me. What I'd like to know is how can the fundamentalist Christian and the atheist find a spot for each other within the BSA? If we can answer that then the BSA would drop off the culture war radar and be seen for what it is. My approach is failing. I'm open for suggestions. In the meantime, I'm going to buy some fishing gear.

BD, it's not that every web in few packs always come to my troop. It sort of shifts around. Sometimes it's one troop, sometimes a couple. It's a process that starts about now. Historically we've taken webs from 7 or 8 packs, but usually they mostly come from 1 or 2 a year. Different people want different things. When we tell people that 95% of our scouts get Eagle after it's too late to wear the patch, many go elsewhere. So I think keeping the Web dens autonomous so they can try out a few different troops is a good thing. We try and get the webelos to join us on two campouts.

TJ, you're just looking for a fight. I'm looking for consensus. That's incompatible. So let's end it. I've now started a fight with both extremes in this forum. Is there a knot for that? Maybe it should be black and blue.

TJ, Science is infinitely deep and always changing. What is true today will not be true tomorrow. But science has little guidance on how people should interact. One of the most important holidays in my religion deals with atonement and forgiveness. Spread throughout my bible is the concept of human dignity and how it can trump all of the harsh rules you complain about. Science does not give any hint on how to balance our selfish and selfless nature (high adventure and service?), my religion does. My religion encourages prayer and that creates calmness and other healthy benefits (scientifically

Pack18Alex, I like your ideas of creating some more distinct levels. Pairing the pack and troop wouldn't work so well in my area. We bring in Webelos from a couple of different packs. We roughly have a pack per elementary school and not as many troops. Another option might be splitting off Webelos from cubs. I think that was the original intent. Part of the time they could be a den and part of the time they could be a patrol in a troop (when the weather is nice and mom or dad want to camp). That would be a better transition. The webs could join the troop for day events and a couple of campouts

Skeptic and TJ and packsaddle all have good points. Discussion and disagreement is good, but we also have to agree to disagree and move on. I went and looked at the onmyhonor website as they had a "major" announcement today. Well, the announcement was a bust but I did look at their forums. Besides arguing over dumb stuff like what to call the equivalent to Eagle, there is a thread on membership requirements. Turns out I wouldn't be allowed to be a scoutmaster there, even though they do want to make it non-denominational. I guess we have different definitions. But I did notice an argument

perdidochas, you have a great point that the online version will be just as troublesome, but it will be less of a fire hazard. If you're going to lose the information, you can do it much more efficiently with a computer. I agree about the heavy lifting part. My council does a good job with respect to that. My DE is always thanking me and the other units.

MB apps are one of those things that should be done online. We fill them out, hand them in, and then ignore them because they end up in a pile on some desk at Council. They don't have enough help to wade through the paperwork so I don't blame them. All they're waiting for is for someone to type all the fields on the paper into the computer. JoeBob, you should hear what some of the staff say about the scoutmasters. Plenty of analness to spread around.