MattR

Oh my. Nuts is right. How about starting with the interaction between the SPL and adults. The SPL made a decision which, by itself, is a good thing. Honestly, getting a scout to just make a decision is big. The adults are fighting over the decision he made. That is a sure way to crush his confidence in making decisions. What is the absolute worst thing that can happen with the way the SPL broke out the patrols? Maybe some scouts will get hungry. There will be no hurry cases so why not just let the SPL live with his decision? Does the SPL care enough about the scouts in his troop to watch out for them, to help the PLs? Do you trust the SPL? ​If I were the SM I'd talk to the SPL. I'd ask him why he made the decisions he did, about friendships, about the scouts being taken care of (not getting hungry), about the leadership (is the troop guide really ready for this, because in my troop I have 3rd and 4th year troop guides that can easily handle 6 new scouts per 2 of them). I'd ask him what his measure of success is for summer camp and whether he thinks he is ready and I'd ask him if he needs any help. Then I would tell him there are a bunch of adults that don't trust him but I'll go to bat for him, buy a bunch of ding dongs, and tell them to stuff one in their mouth every time they open it. I did something like this before and it's amazing the kind of respect you develop with the scouts this way. Some adults watched and learned (a good thing) and some adults just got mad at me (not so good) ​But you are not the SM. You may need to work with the new SM. One thing I can tell you is the last thing a new SM wants to hear is how to do his job (I got plenty of that and none of it was worth beans). The only words he wants to hear are"how can I help?" You may need to be creative in how to help him and encourage boys to lead.

​Doh! Thanks for the obvious smack up side the head. I'm not sure what this has to do with playing nice but it does remind me of something. Last week I talked to a scout about a kid he has trouble with in school and we talked about how to deal with him. He mentioned ignoring the stupid stuff and I asked him if he ever spent time trying to create good times with this kid. i.e., don't just wait until something bad happens before interacting with someone but when things aren't bad try and make them better, so when the bad stuff happens it isn't so bad. ​Maybe playing nice requires more than just reacting to others in a nice way.

I'm completely missing the reference. I suspect it's not good, so please explain.

KDD, regarding how Jewish prayer is different than Christian, I'm not positive on Christian services but in Jewish services there are a fixed set of prayers to choose from. That way everyone can join together in saying them. Nearly all of them have a melody that goes with them and are often sung. I like it because it becomes a meditative thing for me. Very calming. I googled Jewish Boy Scout Invocation and found a usscouts.org page that contains a prayer called the Hiker's Prayer. It starts with "Master of the Universe, Grant me the ability to be alone; May it be my custom to go outdoors each day Among the trees and grass, among all living things. And there may I be alone, and enter into prayer, To talk with the one to whom I belong." It was written by a rabbi that lived in the 18th and 19th centuries and was a very interesting person. I have a hunch it was not originally called the Hiker's prayer Rick_in_CA mentions being "ambushed" by a prayer and I must admit I've been there. Now, an invocation is just a time to wait out. It's just my opinion, but some sort of recognition ahead of time that an explicitly, say, Christian prayer is coming would help a lot. That and some invitation for people of other faiths to bring their own would be very welcome. I agree with the sentiment that if a "prayer" is not inspiring, then what's the point? Maybe it gets down to trying hard to follow the 12th point, seek your own passion and go out of your way to respect that of others. Pack, if you can simplify the rules to one sentence and use them generally somehow, I think it would be great. Consider this version 0.1. with an open copyright. So far I'm pleased with the results. Shabbat Shalom everyone.

This is an experiment to see if we can have a civil discussion about things pertaining to religion. The experiment will consist of a normal question that we've probably seen on this forum but there will be standards for what is an acceptable posting that are much more stringent than what is usually tolerated. The moderators will enforce this (and I'm not a moderator). It is my hypothesis that A) The purpose of the 12th point of the Scout Law is to encourage selfless behavior in our youth at a much deeper level than just following the first 11 points, B) that religion and politics don't mix well, and C) we have to start from a common place if we are to be Courteous. These items suggest some ground rules the moderators will enforce: 1) There will be no mention of anything political or legal, including anything from national. Nothing about Dale or the Constitution. Nothing about polls. Nothing about anything the BSA has written about religion or the meaning of Reverent. No nuanced legalese meanings of some phrase buried in some declaration of religious principles. 2) You must accept the fact that different people are moved to be selfless in different ways. What works for you might not work for others and what works for others is to be respected. 3) Do not belittle the religious beliefs of anyone. If someone says they're Catholic and are fine with abortion then accept it. 4) People get easily offended about these things. Rather than strike back when you're offended, explain what happened, accept any apology, and move on. 5) No complaining about the rules. If you don't like the rules, start another thread and suggest your own common framework. So, what's left to talk about? You can talk about what moves your heart. You can talk about your faith tradition. You can try and talk about that of others but don't cross the line defined in 3) above. You can ask questions. The point is not to win an argument, the point is to come to an agreement. If you can't accept these rules then at least accept my apologies. I'm not trying to keep anyone out of the discussion. I'm just trying to find some common ground. I like the term fishing for souls. We won't catch anything if we aren't Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, towards those we wish to “catch.†There are lots of scouts that could be caught and those are the ones I'm thinking about. So, the subject is: How do I have an invocation at a troop meeting that isn't painfully generic on the one hand and completely exclusionary of minorities on the other? This is compounded by the fact that the prayers I do see at scouting events, even those that are “non denominational,†tend to be completely foreign to me. That's because they are usually ad-hoc and I can't join in. Is there a Philmont Grace style of prayers? Dcsimmons suggested taking turns doing it right among the different faiths. Has anyone gotten that to work?

OK pack, you sound just like me when a parent complains: "Great, how you gonna help with that!". The only problem is I'm getting up at 4:30am tomorrow and driving till my butt breaks. I will get to this eventually. Any specific problem you'd like people to talk about? dcsimmons, thanks for your ideas. Having different invocations rather than a generic one would be nice in many ways. As far as the boy feeling sorry, it lasted less than a second before I said "don't be sorry, I'm glad you took this on." We then talked for a few minutes. You'll have to trust me on this, but by the time we were done, everything was good and he'll likely do it again next time. If anything, he has more confidence, because we talked, to do this next time. Actually, I think I have the subject. Thanks dcsimmons.

Pack, with Moderator status it could be controlled. To remove the fighting there needs to be some common ground and some ground rules. The real problem is that mixing Reverent with politics or law is a sure recipe for disaster. With the current format, there will always be a fight. While politics and religion do have an ugly intersection there is something quite beautiful that can be found where the politics is removed. Some people get there by praying daily and some get there by quietly sitting on a rock in the woods. My job as SM is to encourage each boy to find his own path. What would help me would be a discussion about the 12th point with no mention of law or politics. I know, we can't even decide what the 12th point means, but let's keep it vague and just say it has to do with training the right side of our brains to be selfless. For some that means God, or Buddha, or just hiking up the North side of the Grand Canyon at sunrise. As long as someone accepts that there are different ways to get there, we can have a great discussion.

I just came back from our COH and the scouts decided to do an opening prayer on their own rather than have a minister from the church. The scout asked everyone to bow their heads and he gave a muddled prayer that he didn't think about and then ended with something about Jesus. After the meeting I came up to him and congratulated him on the rest of the COH and then I talked to him about the prayer and how not everyone bows or follows Christianity. He was extremely sorry and I told him no, this was a learning opportunity and I told him how I do things differently. I also told him about practicing before hand. He learned something. I got to teach him something new. We still respect each other. Everyone wins. Wouldn't it be nice if the adults could handle these things the same way? I agree with SSScout, a forum to help each of us learn what Reverent means to others, in a friendly, cooperative way, would be a 100 times more productive than what we have now. Maybe that's a thread; how to talk about these issues in a cooperative way.

TAHAWK, within Judaism belief in God is kind of a fuzzy idea. Doing good is much more concrete than a definition of God with which to believe in. So while God is central to the universe and human spirit, God is not really defined anywhere. "To struggle with God" is a very Jewish thing (and the meaning of the word Israel). There might be some debate about atheistic Jews, but certainly not agnostic.

Without a doubt, single parent kids and no parent kids have more problems in my troop. My wife was the softy and I was the hard one (but I bought the dog!). Kids need both. Not sure if divorce is cause or effect. Some of the things I hear the parents/guardians say is amazing. I can work with the boy but sometimes I just feel like slapping the parents up side the head. My parents have been married 64 years, I've been married 27. One brother has been married 35. Another got a divorce but didn't have kids. The common theme in the successful marriages is: plenty of being mad at each other, respect, a few cherished moments of bliss, and the ability to put up with each other. My grandparents went through a period of 5 years where they didn't talk to each other. By the time they had grand kids that was long forgot and they were the favorite grand parents. Community seems to be nearly as important as two parents. Lots of adults watching lots of kids. Parents helping parents. We can measure divorce rate but I'm not sure we can measure community. If my troop was part of a bigger community it would be that much stronger.

Black pots have nothing to do with black food. I have a few scouts that figure it's easier to burn the food and say they enjoy it rather than cook it right, so I figure you might rather say you like black pots than clean ones. I know, bad joke. As far as dark pots absorbing heat better, I'd think as the soaped pot gets black, it too will absorb heat better. I do remember that our pots never got that clean.

Somebody could, and probably should, write a book on what boy led is and how to get there. Nobody will say their troop is adult led as a complement, so I guess boy led means whatever anybody wants. Here's another definition. Boy led is really a crock. Yes, the adults set boundaries, and we just had a thread on this subject, but doesn't a good SM treat his SPL the way the SPL should treat the PLs, the way the PL should treat the scouts? Doesn't a good leader let those led call the shots in their domain? Let them suffer the consequences and enjoy the rewards? Doesn't the leader look out for his people? They also train when needed. They ask questions. They talk up success. So maybe it is SM led. But with a good attitude and a good heart, the SM is developing future SMs, the SPL is developing future SPLs, all the way down to a 13 year old developing a new First Class scout that can help his patrol. If the SPL is 17 and really gets it then the SM really doesn't have anything to do, but if the SPL is 12 then likely the SM has a lot of coaching to do. If the PLs are 15 and owns their patrols then maybe the SPL doesn't have much to do but if the PLs are 12 then likely the SPL has his hands full. Is there really a difference between the SM and the boys? Yes, there are safety issues, but for the usual leadership things maybe the difference is not nearly as profound as people make it. ​Maybe the question should be is the troop developing leaders at all levels, or is there one leader and a bunch of managers, or one dictator and a bunch of peons?

Nope! And I won't put one in my pack either You guys sound like the scouts that are proud to eat burnt food I like clean pots, what can I say. But I suspect a lot of the need was from using the fire before we had coals. That and we used pine. That stuff has a lot of soot.

Good point, DuctTape. When I was younger we cooked over fires and soaped pots. We got very good at making coals and setting up rocks to be just the right height off the heat. And there were no hot spots. We didn't have patrol boxes or stoves or any of those headaches (you bring the pot, you bring the spoon, you bring the soap, we're good).We did cook as a patrol except for making starch-on-a-stick types of things. Right now I'm battling to get patrols to just bring what they need. Few adults see the point. I brought up the idea of cooking over a fire and the boys are interested. One problem we have is that there is usually a fire ban in the summer and we'd have to bring a truck load of wood in the winter. We could do charcoal.

I used to ride my bike there as a kid. The first troop I joined as a boy, Devon 50, is just a few miles from Valley Forge. They might have a better idea so ask them. Google Devon 50. To this day I don't know why they are called Devon 50 and not just 50, but they were formed in 1927 so that might have something to do with it.

I figured out the importance of respect about a year ago. Since then I've been trying to develop it. At tonight's ASM meeting I was training the adults on respect and part of it was defining the line between adult and scout responsibilities. Most of the ASMs like it but one of them is a problem. The boys flags aren't good enough so let's make them re do the flags. Their patrol names are no good. Their cheers aren't the right length so let's get the SPL to make them change it. I reminded him that the patrol he is most upset with just won all the team based competitions at the camporee last weekend (camp wide). They are a bunch of misfits but they were a team. One of their scouts ages out in a month and he's still a Tenderfoot. But he likes scouts. The PL asked for help on teamwork and I spent the entire month working with him and his patrol. (Yes, eventually it will be the SPL doing this but I have to figure it out myself first) In the meantime, another PL saw the results and asked me if I could help him out with getting scouts to listen to him. We started talking about respect and servant leadership. The other thing I just learned is scouts are a lot more receptive to new ideas when they have a problem they want to solve.

I wouldn't say he's delusional. It probably depends on the maturity of the boys. We just went to camporee and had 40 boys with 4 or 5 trained adults and enough other parents to drive. The trained adults ate very well, didn't do much other than keep a watch on the new parents, and had a good time. There were a couple of small issues but nothing a couple of adults couldn't handle. We are by no means close to GBB status and I want to get there, but we are at the point where I trust the PLC to keep things safe. The problem with only having two adults with 50 boys is that if one boy gets sick then everyone has to go home. With 50 boys it seems to happen too often. The other issue is rides to and from camp. As others have said, why drive back and forth twice when you can do it once and enjoy the outdoors?

Eagledad, when I went to pick up my son from NYLT many years ago I asked one of the course directors what I needed to do to further what my son learned and he didn't know what to say. So I asked him what the number one thing I should work on with the scouts that took the course and he finally said to get everyone in the troop wearing their uniform correctly. That's leadership? Your idea of ticket items and working with the SM is great, but why can't the people that designed this course figure that out?

It sounds like your line, Stosh, is the Scout Oath and Law. I like the part about encouraging scouts to solve leadership problems, especially if they aren't the leader. SM bob, is it that the boys are not allowed to have individuality or they are not allowed to solve problems or even have problems? Society tries to cram in so much that everything has to fit just right to do as much as we do. Consequently there's no room for errors, problems or failure, or more importantly, solving errors, problems or failure. Another aspect of this seems to be that the boys need to know there is a solution to their problem. A lot of times it's the case that the boy doesn't know what he doesn't know. That seems to be what the adults can help with. We have had some luck. One PL was complaining to his dad that he wasn't doing anything because his patrol was doing everything and the dad just about slapped him in the head and told him that was the entire idea.

Stosh, it sounds like you'd do the same thing I would. My only point was that when push comes to shove, and a scout is not acting in a way you want, whether it be too lazy or un scout like or whatever, you will, as a last resort, remove the scout from his position of responsibility. If the PL is lazy then the SPL has to work with him, but if the SPL doesn't, then you'll work with the SPL, and if the SPL doesn't care then you'll remove the SPL. That means he has to do as you say and he does report to you. Now, there's a big difference between removing a leader because he's lazy and removing him because he does not do exactly as you say on everything. There is a line in there somewhere and figuring out where it is and making sure everyone knows what it is is prudent. I'm not sure it's that easy to find that line because it is a judgment call. If they say they want to do Troop Method rather than Patrol Method, maybe that's an easy decision. It's a little harder if they say they will only cook prepackaged meals bought in the freezer section. That's certainly not what I'd call camping, but I don't want lists of approval signatures.

Sounds good. So you're talking to the SPL and the SPL handles this as he sees fit. The assumption is that the SPL "gets it" "If the SPL needs some guidance." What if he needs more than guidance? What if just flat out doesn't care? If he's the one that started the idea of going to the mall and is adamant about it. Maybe he just wants to push your buttons. Further, the rest of the troop goes along with it just to see what happens. Then will you replace the SPL? (and I assume this is after trying repeatedly to get him understand what's going on.) If you would, and the boy knows it, then in essence you could step in and tell him what to do. ​If the 11 year olds can do what they wish then what happens when they don't want to wash dishes? There is a standard and it sounds like you would be the one enforcing it the next time they want something signed off. Doesn't this get back to my point that there are things the SM decides and things the scouts decide? The bigger issue seems to be clearly specifying the distinction and staying true to it. I ask them all the time. They rarely want to change anything. It's frustrating. The place I see the most confidence in taking ownership is with the troop guides. It's always been this way. Maybe it's obvious what the new scouts need. ​Good points.

Stosh and Barry, I'm not sure I understand the differences between the two of you on this. Let's say a PL tells everyone at the PLC that he's going to take his patrol on a hike. But he gets lazy, blows it off, and at the last moment scraps the hike and plays video games instead. How would each of you handle this? If the PLC decides that the outdoors is just a bore and they'd rather take the troop to the mall to hang out and check out the girls, even though the 11 year olds aren't interested, how do you handle this? If a boy in a patrol is just not advancing, you talk to the PL, and he just doesn't care, what do you do? These are all examples of typical teenage stuff that just drives a lot of adults to step in and start ordering kids around. Is there a minimum standard to letting the boys decide? My view has always been there's a very clear, simple distinction between what the boys decide and what the adults decide. I'm not sure that's so easy to implement. I encourage my scouts to make changes, tell me what they'd like to change, or don't like, and they don't seem to want to change anything. So how do I know if they really like it the way it is or just don't think they can really make a change?

To me, there seems to be a big gap between the BSA's potential and where it is now. Some units are doing great and a lot are blundering along. For those that are doing great they probably sell themselves irrespective of whatever national does. Giving the others what they need would help a lot. Win locally and everyone can ignore what the global wing nuts think or say. I've always thought scouting is this strange mix of things that just works. It's character and adventure and leadership and fun. And it's not just sports or STEM or band. It's well rounded where a lot of other things are focused on very narrow fields. I think that's both a strength and a weakness. A strength because the outcomes are boys that are well rounded and a weakness because we seem to be a society focused on specializing and winning. Instead, scouts gets to the crux of life. Be happy and helpful when the crap hits the fan. I'm not sure how to put that in PC speak but it is enticing to me as a parent.

What you're trying to do is the right thing. A lot of the training assumes you already have a boy led/patrol method troop. But it's a lot harder to transform a troop. A couple of years ago the light bulb went off with me and it's been a very slow trial and error approach for me. It would be really nice if national put together info on how to do this. Some lessons I've learned: Get the best scouts as patrol leaders. Too often it's, nah, I don't want to do it, it's your turn. We have a nomination process, like OA, to even be eligible to be PL. Also, one ASPL is more than enough. More than that is just dead weight. Mutual respect between adults and scouts is paramount. I fight for my PLs. Trust goes two ways and without it, nothing else will work. Respect their opinion and ask for it often. Make a very clear distinction between what the scouts are responsible for and what the adults are responsible for. The simpler that list the better. If there's confusion then the boys will always back off and give the adults the leadership. You set the boundaries. Within those boundaries, stay out. Do you really need to decide when the boys wake up? Or do you just need to let them know when flags is, and that they will be there? Older scouts need purpose. It's more than just having fun. Older boys that don't have something important to do, and not just made up responsibility, will fade away. At the same time, older scouts do need some time to hang with each other. It's like ice cream, too much is bad, too little is harsh, but there is a sweet spot. Spend time having fun with your scouts so when you have to tell them something they don't want to hear they'll still listen. If all you do is bring them bad news they will tune you out. There are different leadership styles and every boy is different. There are different ways to create enthusiasm and it's up to the boy leader to figure it out. Most boys know the right thing to do. Whether they do it is another thing. So your job is to get them to decide what it is they should do, and then hold them to it. Boys are incredible at forgetting anything. Text messages and email are lost in the ether. The message needs to be repeated constantly. A change of anything seems to take at least 6 months. Boys can also create fun out of most anything, so give them time for it to develop. As other's have mentioned, leadership is about teamwork and caring about the team. Caring about others is the central point of the scout oath. Repeat this before you ask them to solve a people problem. Teamwork is about giving everyone a job that's important. Yep, the main job for the new scout may be nothing more than carrying the patrol flag but if it makes him part of the team then it's good, and it's one less thing for the PL to do (except he will have to remind him for awhile). It's hard to lead a dysfunctional team. Give the leader scouts that will listen. Or at least make sure it's not that every kid in the patrol can't focus on even eating without wondering off in the weeds (been there). Come up with some way to measure, even if it's qualitatively, how well things are going. I came up with a leadership rubric just to explain what I was looking for and I graded the troop for all sorts of categories. It works very well to explain what boy led means. 300' is a good idea, even if it's only 100. The program is important. I'm on a challenge kick. Skills that can be improved on, new ideas. Every campout shouldn't be seal training but there is a tendency to get into ruts. Most scouts don't understand the creative process so you might have to help them generate ideas they can pick from. Heck, the scouts are better than the adults in my troop when it comes to good ideas. Since you're not the SM, maybe you could volunteer to work with one patrol as a patrol mentor. I guess my point is that the training material you mention will not make a leader. Going out and leading will make a leader. Yes, there are some good tidbits in the training but that's all they are, tidbits. Another thing is that words don't soak in to boys. A classroom where you pontificate and play games that simulate real scenarios will not help a boy become a leader. You can't tell him to be enthusiastic. Show him. Give him a problem to solve. Show him the skills. Make him go do it. Ask him how it went. Repeat. Ask for help from someone you respect. Have fun. Expect things to go wrong. It's a slow process. Ignore those that complain and are unwilling to help. Find adults you can work with and share your ideas. This is hard doing it alone. Good luck. Let us know what works.

Big. Huge. Red. Flags. But at the same time I'd like to buy you a beer because you obviously care about the boys. Some questions I'd ask first are what do the families think of this? A problem that needs solving? They don't care? They like the CC and husband? Next, other than the boys, what's keeping you there? Where do you meet? What is it about this CO that you like? If the CO doesn't matter and the boys are all that matter, and everyone agrees with this then here is one option, I'm sure there are more. Find someone that would be a new CC. Between the two of you, find a new CO. Create a new troop and for those that want to follow you, help them transfer to the new troop. It costs $1 per person. You lose the money the old troop had, but that's probably nothing because the finances are a mess. You also lose the gear. But you have a very clean break. Then you can get back to being a SM. Good luck, and welcome to the forum.