MattR

Skeptic and TJ and packsaddle all have good points. Discussion and disagreement is good, but we also have to agree to disagree and move on. I went and looked at the onmyhonor website as they had a "major" announcement today. Well, the announcement was a bust but I did look at their forums. Besides arguing over dumb stuff like what to call the equivalent to Eagle, there is a thread on membership requirements. Turns out I wouldn't be allowed to be a scoutmaster there, even though they do want to make it non-denominational. I guess we have different definitions. But I did notice an argument as to who would be allowed. One guy said Jews and Christians should be allowed but not Muslims or Buddhists. That started a fight. They've just shifted the line but they sound just the same. The point being, there will always be people that disagree and we should learn to be civil. We're all volunteers and we're all trying.

perdidochas, you have a great point that the online version will be just as troublesome, but it will be less of a fire hazard. If you're going to lose the information, you can do it much more efficiently with a computer. I agree about the heavy lifting part. My council does a good job with respect to that. My DE is always thanking me and the other units.

MB apps are one of those things that should be done online. We fill them out, hand them in, and then ignore them because they end up in a pile on some desk at Council. They don't have enough help to wade through the paperwork so I don't blame them. All they're waiting for is for someone to type all the fields on the paper into the computer. JoeBob, you should hear what some of the staff say about the scoutmasters. Plenty of analness to spread around.

I've had a number of scouts tell me they started boy scouts with the intent of getting Eagle and moving on, but recently they've decided it's way too much fun and now they want to stay till they age out. It warms my heart. I hope I can keep the excitement for them.

My troop is doing ok. We tell all the families they have to help out somehow. We have signup parties. Most do. We have more than enough adults working on COH stuff, not quite enough that want to work with kids. Maybe hammering nails is easier than working with kids. My district is struggling. I was also thinking of the packs, as those are the units losing the most kids. It seems like the ratio of families that help out to those that don't is roughly 1 in 3-4. If you have a troop with 14 scouts (the average size), that means 2 or 3 adults are going on every campout. That's stressful. With 8 scouts in a den, that means 2 adults are doing everything. After several years it's complete burn out. This is compounded by the fact that your average den leader is clueless. I certainly was. Then there's the problem that Webelos want to do something besides crafts, which places more burden on the adults. Some dens can get half the adults involved and they do great. But that's the exception and not normal. How much greater would it be if half the adults were regularly involved, jazzed, and enthusiastic? I like Eagledads idea of teaching the parents. I might get more adults to work with scouts.

I agree that the Boy Scout volunteers have a harder time getting involved. So the Habitat people have an entry level volunteer position that involves a hammer, 3 hours of time, and no learning curve to speak of. The new person, after having done that, can take some pride in saying they did something. Maybe they'll come back for more and eventually be responsible for building a house, which is no small responsibility. What are the entry level, no skill required jobs for the Boy Scouts? Honestly, changing the toilet paper roll is not going to feel like much progress for the volunteer. What are other tasks for the new parent that we should be pushing them towards?

Over in the politics forum there's a thread about the future of Boy Scouts. One issue I thought of is getting volunteers. I found an interesting paper about volunteering in 1974, 1989, and 2002-2006 (http://www2.illinois.gov/serve/Documents/Volunteering_America_Full_Report.pdf ). It was done using data from the census bureau. The big surprise for me is that the amount of volunteering is considerably higher now than in the 70's and 80's. At the same time it seems like scout units are having a harder time finding volunteers. If I tie this in with the fact that it seems like nobody outside of scouts has any idea what goes on inside of scouts, it seems to me that the BSA's problem is more a case of education than anything else. ​To me, there's a certain magic that scouting has that no other activity has. It's not sports and it's not school, but it's a mix of outdoors, adventure, service, leadership, and civics that just works. If it's hard to describe then it makes sense that many adults don't get involved because they don't understand it. There is the Methods of Scouting but that's very cursory. Does anyone dive into the methods any more than the usual?

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Merlyn, AZMike, it's Miller Time. You know you won't change the mind of the other. You completely disagree with the other. You're arguing to win, not find common ground. Not very scout like. Thus, not very ethical

I'm getting ready to take 50 scouts away from the internet (read summer camp), so I'll throw in my 1 cent. TJ, I agree that things with video screens are a form of entertainment to kids these days. I also know they are shallow and addictive. I also see a lot of people, scouts or not, that want to give back, are looking for something more meaningful to do with their time, or just want something deeper than facebook. I tell people that I'm a SM and talk about some of the things we do and they're all "that is so cool." The service young people are doing today is much better than what I saw as a kid. This isn't just scouts, it's college kids and high school kids. At the same time, to your point, there are plenty of slugs out there as well. I guess my point is that the human spirit is still there. Some people want to Live and some just want to exist. That hasn't changed. I had an Eagle scout in my troop that did everything, knew his stuff, and was really great. I talked to his dad recently and this kid is struggling. He was addicted to video games. He's flailing. At the same time, another Eagle scout just called me in a panic the other day because he doesn't know what to do after he graduates from college. The long story short is he wants to do the Peace Corps but all his friends told him that was a waste as he wouldn't make any money. I told him to follow his heart and ignore the money. You could hear the smile through the phone. I'm having my plc review their campouts because they're, to be honest, boring. It started a good discussion. I won't get them to sweat on every campout but they will be memorable. I don't know where that leaves us with the BSA. There are still good people out there that need and want what we have to offer. I think the problem isn't the boy scouts so much as the cub scouts. The numbers are dropping much faster there than in the boy scouts.

Fred and Eagledad, what you're describing is well written in the book The Last Child in the Woods. This is more a society thing than the Boy Scouts. I can't do anything about society but I can work with my patrol leaders. I'm always happy for a PL to ask if he can take his patrol on a 5 mile hike without adults. I've suggested it with only a little luck. Next week is summer camp and maybe I'll have the PLs plan their own 5 mile hike for the new scouts in their patrol. One magical thing about boys is they will find the fun in a new situation. Maybe they don't know how to create their own new situation. When my son was little he'd be sitting inside and I'd tell him to go outside and he'd complain and moan but finally go outside. About 4 hours later I'm wondering around looking for him. He had a blast. Maybe I just need to tell my patrols to get out of camp.

I don't know if it's about prissy vs manly so much as adventure. And there are lots of ways to have an adventure. (I would be in on the bucket of snakes) I like the phrase "here there be dragons" supposedly written on the edge of maps indicating the unknown. Combine that with Be Prepared and that, to me, is how a calendar should be figured out. But it's hard to find scouts that will go for it. Adventure is about challenging yourself, and that implies a possibility of failure. I don't know, maybe a lot of kids don't know how to fail gracefully, so they stay away from any challenge. Seems to me society doesn't like young winners and losers (although winning is everything for adults, but that's another thread). We just did a biking based high adventure trip and everyone was challenged and the range of abilities was all over the map. We had different ability groups so everyone got pushed, everyone struggled, and we had a ton of fun. If I could do that troop wide, it would be great. Maybe we need to emphasize to scouts how to fail gracefully and also win gracefully by helping those that are struggling.

He lives in a flat state?

Our rules are that ISA accounts are fine but the money can only be used for purely scout related purposes. Apparently there is precedence with the IRS (something about marching bands) that this is good enough to pass their "no personal gain" rule. So, a scout asked if he could use the money to buy a bike for a high adventure trip and we said no, as the bike would also be used after the high adventure trip for personal gain. Using the money to pay for the high adventure trip was fine. Using it for jamboree is fine. Using it for church camp is not fine. Using it for summer camp is fine. Basically, using it for gear is not OK. Once a scout turns 18 he loses all of his money, so adults can not have accounts.

Well, try waiting another week

We got passion I like Kudu's 300' ideas. I had to get us off the 300 pounds of gear before we could do it, but it's just a way to say patrol based activities and not troop based activities. My troop is finally getting there and my scouts like it. My goal is to have the PLs strong enough that any one could be SPL, and maybe we could just get rid of the SPL and the PLs could just take turns. I think that's what Kudu is talking about. I also appreciate what BD is going through. I had a scout that everyone was sure would never, ever, be responsible for anything, much less a leader. All of a sudden last year he found out he was really good at tying knots (we had a blind folded knot tying contest). In February he became a troop guide and all his new scouts really like him. He's now a patrol leader. He cares about his patrol. He doesn't want to manage it, he wants to lead it. So the idea of building up a leader is a reasonable idea to me. Kudu says patrol elections are a popularity contest. Not in my troop. Maybe I'm just lucky but over the past two cycles, only the best scouts have been voted in. Granted, we do things differently than most troops, but the scouts know who's good and who isn't. One thing I'd like to add is that changing a troop from, say, troop method to patrol method, or adult led to scout led, takes a lot of effort. Changing culture in a troop is not easy. What a younger scout sees is what he'll do when he gets older and starts leading or being a role model. If a young scout sees an older scout lead then he'll learn from that and try and emulate it when it's his turn, at least in the beginning. That's what I did when I became SM. For a situation like what BD has, where there is no prior leadership to learn from the scout has nothing to emulate, and flailing would be expected. We can use words all we want to try and explain how to do it but words are only so good when it comes to leadership. And that's why I also agree with Kudu's dim view on classroom leadership training. What I'm finding is that being a troop guide and/or working at summer camp helps a scout gain confidence in working with other people, and is a much better way to learn leadership than something like NYLT. It's not that NYLT isn't useful, but it it not sufficient and only somewhat necessary.

Barry, try editing your message in another window, then login to the forum, then just copy and paste. it works well for me.

Actually, I think you've made great progress. Now you have his attention and he's likely to listen to you, so speak carefully. A little bit of success could go a long way now.

So, you have a scout that you're getting frustrated with at trying to get him to do his best? Welcome to being a SM Jblake could be right, no point in kicking a dead horse. However, it could also be other things. How old is this boy? Personally, I think it is a rare scout that can lead at the age of 12. 13? Maybe, 14. Also, has this boy seen it done right? Simple example is how to clean dishes. We told the scouts hot soapy water, scrape the food out, scrub, etc, but it still took 6 months before they got those ideas. Now it's no longer an issue. Scouts see how it's done and when it's their turn to lead they know what we mean my cleaning. Words don't have nearly the impact as seeing it done. It gets down to figuring out whether the boy is trying and wants to do it right, but for whatever reason is failing, vs a boy that just can't be bothered. Many boys, if they don't know how to do something, will end up looking like they don't care when they care a lot. So I certainly can't give you any advice on how to deal with this boy.

We just went through figuring out patrols. We also had to add a patrol but we started with 6. Before doing any of this I asked the scouts to write down 3 friends they wanted to be with and I made a big graph of this. The PLC sat down and we talked about servant leadership. Then we talked about what the patrol leaders wanted for support (mostly strong scouts). Then we talked about what the younger scouts needed (friends and wise old scouts). Then we talked about what everyone wanted (friends). Then I gave them limits on the number of scouts (6-9). Then I said "this is your troop, figure it out." Then all I did was keep them focused so it wouldn't take 8 hours. I'm a bit worried about one patrol being the "hooligans" and they will certainly need an adult with patience, but all in all they brought up more details, characteristics, and personalities about the scouts than I knew. It's as good a setup as I've seen. For the most part the old patrols stayed together. One thing great about boy led is it takes the stress off the adults to do it "right" as there is no right.

Hey Bradley, you must have been doing a great job sharpening that axe to cut yourself. Anyway, have you ever heard the expression the glass is half full (versus half empty)? You still have one corner left, how many do you need? Here's what I'd suggest. Go back and figure out exactly why you cut yourself. There's another old saying, accidents don't happen, they are caused. So figure out what caused you to cut yourself. Just a guess, but were you wearing gloves while sharpening the axe? I've found that you need the right file to sharpen an axe. I prefer a single cut, fine file. It also has to be sharp. Yes, files get dull. So figure out exactly what you did wrong and go over everything else you should have learned the first time. Then go talk to your SM and tell him you figured out what you did wrong and that you'd like to try again and do it right. Show him that you know how to do it right. Once you've done that, and assuming he tells you you did a good job, ask him if he'll give you a new card. Timing is important. Anyway, one of two things will happen. 1) He'll give you a new card and you're good to go. 2) He won't. But that doesn't matter because you'll never make that mistake again and that one corner will get you through to your Eagle Court of Honor, where you can give it back to your dad. I promise you, he'll really appreciate it. Good luck!

BD, for me there is no magic number. It is all about the spirit or soul of the scout. I can't reduce one's character to a simple formula as it depends on the person. If a scout has a history of really helping out his troop, is enthusiastic, is a great leader, and then one day gets caught shoplifting, I suspect when the SM talks to him he'd feel like crap. If the SM then asks him what the right thing to do is he'd repay his debt several times over and do it cheerfully. If it happens again, which I doubt, it would likely be a case of fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. For the scout that's always brawling, maybe the shoplifting is the final straw. I dislike the checklist aspect of Eagle (other than the Eagle project). To me it's all about attitude and what they do. Builder of men? Absolutely! People can learn a lot from their mistakes. Those that do are Eagle material. KDD, I'm not saying that at all. In my book, one's character is defined by one's deeds much more than one's thoughts. If the scout is generally a great kid but slips up once, it's a great learning opportunity, not a reason to chuck him. Atoning for your mistakes is much harder than not making mistakes and shows a lot of character. I still don't think we're that far apart.

BD, I don't think we're that far apart. 10 times, no question. A brawler that keeps brawling? I'd get rid of him. Note that I said forgiveness is a two way deal. If the scout honestly works on atoning for his errors then I'm willing to forgive him. Atonement and forgiveness go hand in hand. There can't be one without the other. It's two sides to the same problem. If he only wants to make it right enough to get away with it then, yes, I agree that it's over. That's why I also said it's not easy to decide what's in another's heart.

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part. As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth. I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

I agree with dcsimmons, don't put him on the defensive. Listen to him. Ask him about his scout history. Is he proud of what he's done? Do the younger scouts look up to him? Is he a role model? Is he proud of his Eagle project? Read him an Eagle charge and ask him if that resembles him. When he gets to "yeah, but ..." have him read the first line of the Scout Oath. Ask him if he's doing his best to God and his country. All you can do is your best. There will always be people you disagree with. There will also always be people you agree with. You'll likely marry someone that you don't agree with all of the time, but you'll love her anyway. You do your best and focus on that.