MattR

No offense taken. I'm just collecting ideas for now. One thing I've figured out with most scouts is that if I can give them some ideas that are completely different from what they're used to, I'll get much better ideas from them. So I will be asking them. I'm really just trying to come up with a generic model, the actual activities would be based on scout input plus a reality check (money, staffing, resources,...) I'd like to see a patrol based camp. It would just be great for helping a troop develop patrol method. There is a tradeoff with what the younger and older scouts can and want to do. This will be a patrol cooking camp because there is no dining hall. There is a regular dining hall camp on the same ranch so I think this is a slightly easier sell. They have a high adventure backpacking program at the ranch, the dining hall camp, and this one. Making it the high adventure non-backpacking might fit well with the other camps (of course, if the scouts wanted to go backpacking for two days I'd think that would be great)

Well, what they don't want to do is sit in a class room setting. I'd even try something along the lines of do the fun stuff at camp and save the classroom work for back home. Even nature MB might be fun if it's not writing essays. EagleScout441, I'm all about the adventure. We can do all of that but the caving. JoeBob, I like the advancing level idea. What about building patrol camaraderie? Wasn't there some camp in New Hampshire that did a week of patrol based activities? So they'd sign up for shooting one afternoon and go do that together. Combine that with the levels and the younger scouts get to start with a sling shot and the older scouts can do the tomahawk. Activities that require teamwork would also be good.

If you had the opportunity to change your summer camp and you wanted to make merit badges less of the focus, how would you set up the program? I might have such an opportunity.

Now I understand. Thanks for writing, this is a good thing to talk about. I'm not sure what the formula was. I suspect there wasn't one and it was just a part of our culture. In the military the formula seems to be that you're in it together and you truly depend on each other. I try to create that in scouts but I struggle with it because I haven't seen it before and neither have the parents. dcsimmons, while I do have consequences for lack of participation I think it's more than that. If I reduce this idea to a number in TroopMaster kids will just game the system. It's more of an attitude. Maybe this is another thread but I see an underlying theme on several threads that somehow seem connected. This thread on the military, the one on scout spirit, honor, the out doors, and the ones on religion (aside from all the arguing). I can't easily put my finger on it but it has to do with believing in something bigger than ourselves. Whether it be our patrol, troop, nature, society, or God, it counteracts our selfish side and helps our selfless side. Logically, it makes no sense but, when done right, has a profound impact on people. I can't even describe it, yet teach it to the parents or scouts. I had a SM meeting last night and we spent half of it talking about scout spirit, helping out without being asked, that sort of thing. We talked about every scout that was Star and above. There's one I need to have a serious talk with but most of them get it. They will try and help out. Many are not sure of themselves but they know the right thing to do. Very few of the scouts in my troop are just in it for the Eagle pin so they can quit. Some have even told me they started off with that intention but have since changed their mind. So, I think they are open to this, it's just up to me to provide them a way to experience it. But I admit, I could use some help.

Jblake, what are examples of "tossing out the military slant?" I'm not disagreeing with you, just want a better understanding of where you're coming from. I agree with what you say about the leadership, teamwork, self confidence, etc of the military. Isn't this exactly why BP started scouting? He liked these aspects of the military but wanted to leave the violence out? At least that hasn't changed. Respect for any type of leadership has certainly dropped.

I'd like to see the uniform simplified and a necker and a uniform t-shirt for the outdoors would be fine. I think the scouts would go the way of the British and accept a simple shirt with a necker. For indoors, either a t-shirt or a scout shirt with all the pockets and epaulettes removed would be cheaper and easier to sew on patches, not to mention it would just look less formal. Formal is fine at Courts of honor, but not in the outdoors. I suspect the main reason for the formality is for adults to show their bling. I remember when the last round of shirts came out and they went on and on about how scouts could use the pockets for their mp3 players. The scouts still put them in their pants because that's what they do outside of scouts (mainly so they can change songs without reaching up to their shoulder).

I spent this past week on jury duty. It was a felony within a family. Intellectually it was a fascinating experience and I got to see how the rubber hits the road when it comes to the constitution. Emotionally, however, it was draining. There were no good guys, only bad and worse. While the legal system worked, it didn't come close to helping with the underlying problem. This family was a mess. Multiple marriages/relationships for each adult, kids out of wedlock, a family graph rather than a family tree, everyone has a step relationship, fathers not being dads, moms not knowing where their kids are, kids moving among parents and grandparents. We struggled with the meaning of "beyond a reasonable doubt" because nothing we saw was reasonable. This was a Shakespearean tragedy of character. All of us on the jury couldn't help but think that the underlying problem had more to do with an unstable family than anything else. It's not that this couldn't have happened in a stable family, but, as the judge told us afterwards, this happens to these families all the time. About a third of kids are raised in single parent families and about 40% of kids are born out of wedlock. All I can say is, beyond a reasonable doubt, this ain't good. What is honor? Maybe we can't define it but we all know what it is. Maybe it's like scout spirit. Maybe it's being selfless and loyal towards an ideal, whether that ideal is marriage or children or country or just a scout troop. Whatever it is, we could sure use some more of it.

ScoutRedux, to answer your second question, it depends on whether the scout sees the mistake he made and wants to fix it. If his only sorrow is that he got caught, then I won't have much sympathy for him. If on the other hand he's honestly sorry for what he did, and wants to make it better, then I'll have much more forgiveness. Deciding where a scout is on that continuum is another problem all together.

Thanks everyone. Sounds like at least one thing we can agree on . Kudzu, I agree, it's a great book. JBlake, trade you some wild black raspberry jam for your cherry pie.

Why are the outdoors and nature so important to Boy Scouts? I think it is, but I want a simple explanation as to why. As technology makes it easier to get away from nature it seems like this is an important question to answer. It's kind of like, what is Scout Spirit? You know it when you see it but it's hard to describe. Anyway, here's my answer but I'm just trying to start a discussion. Nature is a way to get away from our usual lives, it's fun. Nature is a source of unpredictability, scouts learn how to solve problems and take care of themselves. Nature is a source of awe, after you see how small you are in the world it's easier to be selfless. Nature can be an adrenalin rush, exciting, or scary - it teaches scouts how to live.

Kudu, you like sending people off on their own to figure things out. Here's another idea for spiritual awakening on your own that I'd like to try some day with the scouts. It's something along the lines of the vigil ordeal or a vision quest. Find a pretty place away from everyone else and sit quietly for 24 hours tending a fire. You can bring religious material to read but no electronics, not even a watch. All the water you want but no food. You're asked to think about your place in your community. I talked to someone else that does this with his troop. He said it was great for the more mature scouts.

Lord of the Flies.

They may also need salt. I had half a dozen kids suffer some amount of dehydration at summer camp (hot and dry) and 2 of them were drinking a gallon a day but not getting enough salt. I use electrolyte tablets but the scouts don't like the taste, so we give them gatorade. One of the 2 scouts is at Jambo and I just hope he remembered how crappy he felt at summer camp (and is taking care of himself)

I can't quite see that. I got to the point where I am at least partially because of a lot of people before me. The prayers, the stories, and the ceremonies are all things I never would have figured out on my own. So, the organized part of my religious beliefs are a necessary part of my personal beliefs. Sufficient? No, I'll give you that.

Maybe that's why it took so long, I was waiting for the older scouts to age out. Sounds better than me being slow. But I agree, there is some truth to changing the culture with the younger scouts.

KDD, here's one cliffnotes version, presumably written around the 4th century. It's well known and, naturally, comes with a story: "Hillel, when asked by a prospective convert to Judaism to teach him the whole Torah while he stood on one leg, replied: 'That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.'" So, start with the Golden Rule and once you have that figured out go study the Bible to learn more. And never stop. i.e., it's a journey. What can I say, people are complex. Pack, I hear you. Organized religion has a bad side. There's also a good part that I find incredibly wonderful. To me, it gets down to the Golden Rule, which is really about love. But love is hard to define. It's kind of like gravity, we know it when we see it, but we can't define it or reason about it. Anyway, it would be nice if everyone lived this ideal. It will never happen but maybe we can get closer. So, like anything in scouts, you can't talk about love, you have to do it. Gotta feel the love. When I pray, I do feel the love. I have no idea why it works. It just does, much like gravity. We just need to work on the bad side. It's improving, just slowly.

I think I have all of the Jewish (and Chinese American!) scouts from my city in my troop. Chinese moms are easier to deal with only because they struggle so much with English they give up before giving me an earful. I'm in a small congregation (50 families). They claim to be reform but it seems to be a fuzzy distinction. It's a mix of a lot and everyone likes it. We have a range of political views from middle of the road Republican to hard core Democrat. Then there's the mom that teaches the youth, will step in for the rabbi if needed, will sing for the cantor if needed, and she's also a girl scout troop leader. If she had sons, she'd be a den leader. As for boy scouts, people in my congregation think that what I do as SM is a mtizvah. When they find out all the service and adventure we do, they really like it. They would like all kids, before bar and bat mitzvah, to do a "tikkun olam project." So they asked me if I'd help organize that. They'd sign me up for helping run a youth program if they thought they could squeeze the time out of me. I'm the one that makes sure the U.S. flag is on the correct side. So in my congregation being a SM is accepted, but we do have a very warm congregation. That said, a few members have come up to me and said something along the lines of "I really like what you do for the children, but ... ." One of them came up to me and started talking about it and when she started she just had this view that all we did was make gay pinatas and beat them and she wanted to know how I could possibly be part of it. I told her what we really did and by the end her tone was much more accepting. Qwazse's point that the BSA is also viewed as Christian doesn't help either. Again, people have preconceived ideas. The problem comes from those that have no idea what scouting is about. I see the Boy Scout ideas of service and adventure compare to yetzer tov (selfless) and yetzer ra (selfish). I think it's a great match. The fact that reform Jews might not like scouts baffles me.

Eagle92, PMs don't seem to work. Any chance you can attach it to a post?

My opinion is that there are multiple opinions, different things work for different people, and they should all be accepted. If it didn't come across that way then my apologies.

LHS, that's very close to the position I came into and I was frustrated with it. This is my experience, take from it what you want. Since you have such a young troop, it might not be so easy (e.g., scouts under the age of about 13 don't have the maturity to be a PL. It's not a hard rule, just an observation.) A few years ago: I told the adults I wanted the older scouts to teach the skills so they'd learn them and I got blow back. A patrol leader was a glorified secretary. I wanted patrols camping separately and nobody had the faintest idea why. The older scouts tolerated the younger scouts, but that's about it. Now, patrols want to camp as far away from each other as possible. At camp I now see patrol leaders teaching the younger scouts. At summer camp I had to ask the adults that wanted to go on the 5 mile hike, to make sure nothing would go wrong, to let the scouts handle it on their own, as that's what they wanted. It took a long time (probably too long but I'm a slow learner). Change is slow and requires a constant message. It's amazing how the attitude of "well, that's how we've always done it" takes forever to change. I try and change just a few things at a time. It took us about a year to convince the scouts that clean means no grease. We sounded like a broken record. I finally figured out that I needed all the ASMs on the same page. Without their help the scouts were getting one new message from me and several old messages from the ASMs. I was trying to change too much at a time. Now when I come up with an idea I have a SM meeting to get their input and work out how we are going to make it happen. Some things get delayed, modified, or dropped in the process. The bigger issue, however, was getting the boys to buy in. In the past year things have really changed for the better and it seems to do with patrol method and that in turn means scout leadership. I thought I had a boy led troop until one day I noticed that the adult leader monthly meeting would go on for 2 or 3 hours and the scout leader meeting would take 15 to 20 minutes. My definition of boy led is now: Who solves the problems. That's who is leading the troop. That's not to say the scouts don't need guidance in solving problems, but that's a different thread. There are plenty of threads about teaching leadership. I've found a lot of useful information and none of it really seems wrong. Given the culture change I wanted to make the straight NYLT, ISLT, Woodbadge was lacking. Here are some critical parts: Being a PL in my troop is now a Big Deal whereas it used to be a vote along the lines of "whose turn is it?" Now, patrol leaders need to be nominated, much like OA, before they can even run for office. It's not a popularity contest. The result of all this is that PLs now believe they're doing something important. I asked some older scouts a year or so ago about leadership and they were blunt, they know a bs job when they see it. They want real responsibility. I trust my PLs (and most of the older scouts for that matter) and they know it. When there's a problem I'll take it to the SPL and ask him to bring it up at a PLC meeting and they'll work on it. What I described above about the older scouts taking the younger scouts on a hike without adults was a good example. At one point, with both the scouts and adults standing there, I turned to the older scouts and asked them if they could handle it alone, they said yes, and so I turned to the adults and said they didn't need to go. I intentionally did that in front of the scouts so they knew I trusted them and would stand up for them in front of the adults. That buys me respect. The scouts know if they screw up they not only embarrass themselves but they embarrass me, the adult that's treating them like an adult. We respect each other and that's what the scouts want. I trust their judgement and that has somehow raised their judgement. There are times where they propose a better solution than I would have thought of. I have expectations for PLs and patrol members when it comes to participation. Scouts are expected to go to at least half the campouts and half the service projects. The PL or APL must be at every patrol event, including campouts. That seems to give kids in sports and other stuff plenty of opportunity to do scouts and other stuff. I do make exceptions for acts of God (medical, family situation) but not scout choices (homework, other activities). When parents complain I tell them scouting is a team based sport. I'm no longer the bad guy. I inherited a troop where the SM was judge, jury, and executioner and all the other adults, and scouts, didn't deal with any of that. It makes it easy to take care of problems but it's hard to develop a trusting relationship with the scouts. I told adults I no longer want to be the sole disciplinarian and I will no longer test the scouts for skills before a SM conference. Now they do it. Another way I got out of being a bad guy is having the scouts nominate who can be a PL. If a scout isn't nominated and he needs a POR all I have to ask is "why do you think the scouts didn't nominate you?" I'm not giving them the bad news. It's much easier for me to have a talk with a scout about helping out, scout spirit, and things like that. We just started some fun events exclusively for the older scouts that help out. They chose things like a lock in and rock climbing. It's just a fun afternoon where the older scouts can create some comaradarie. It also lets everyone else in the troop know that these guys are good. Kind of long and blathering. Sorry about that. When other adults complain I can only say it works for me and this is by no means the only way to do it. I am interested in what others do as this can be better. Of course, when I feel like it's workable, and it has become culture in my troop, I will step down.

Pack, that's the wrong question for me. What I'd like to know is how can the fundamentalist Christian and the atheist find a spot for each other within the BSA? If we can answer that then the BSA would drop off the culture war radar and be seen for what it is. My approach is failing. I'm open for suggestions. In the meantime, I'm going to buy some fishing gear.

BD, it's not that every web in few packs always come to my troop. It sort of shifts around. Sometimes it's one troop, sometimes a couple. It's a process that starts about now. Historically we've taken webs from 7 or 8 packs, but usually they mostly come from 1 or 2 a year. Different people want different things. When we tell people that 95% of our scouts get Eagle after it's too late to wear the patch, many go elsewhere. So I think keeping the Web dens autonomous so they can try out a few different troops is a good thing. We try and get the webelos to join us on two campouts.

TJ, you're just looking for a fight. I'm looking for consensus. That's incompatible. So let's end it. I've now started a fight with both extremes in this forum. Is there a knot for that? Maybe it should be black and blue.

TJ, Science is infinitely deep and always changing. What is true today will not be true tomorrow. But science has little guidance on how people should interact. One of the most important holidays in my religion deals with atonement and forgiveness. Spread throughout my bible is the concept of human dignity and how it can trump all of the harsh rules you complain about. Science does not give any hint on how to balance our selfish and selfless nature (high adventure and service?), my religion does. My religion encourages prayer and that creates calmness and other healthy benefits (scientifically proven, by the way). My religion also recognizes that character is a skill and it requires constant practice (Scout Slogan?). Science doesn't talk much about these things. That's not to say that any religion doesn't have its problems. Where it falls down, and it appears to me that this is where you're unhappy with it, is when the religious take it upon themselves to, let's say, encourage others to follow them. This can be extreme, such as at gun point, or passive aggressive, as in complaining that you don't pray correctly, or even among the Boy Scouts that require you to have some faith. I stay away from the guns and ignore the rest. What's left is a vast collection of wonderful ideas and stories that I can learn from. I don't read them as history or science. Just one example: The number 7 in the Bible means something is good. So, the universe was not created in 7 days, but it was a good thing. One thing about my religion that I am absolutely, positively clear about, is that I will never have all the answers. To be honest, TJ, you've insulted the vast majority of the population with what you wrote. I doubt that was your intent. As you said, you quietly suck it up and maybe you're tired of doing that. I suck it up every time someone asks me to remove my hat to pray, I don't, and they glare at me like I'm some sort of hideous atheist (just joking). Someone on this forum once said that religion and spiritual insight is a journey and it's different for a lot of people. Wise words. I wish you the best in your journey. At the same time, I hope you can respect mine.

Pack18Alex, I like your ideas of creating some more distinct levels. Pairing the pack and troop wouldn't work so well in my area. We bring in Webelos from a couple of different packs. We roughly have a pack per elementary school and not as many troops. Another option might be splitting off Webelos from cubs. I think that was the original intent. Part of the time they could be a den and part of the time they could be a patrol in a troop (when the weather is nice and mom or dad want to camp). That would be a better transition. The webs could join the troop for day events and a couple of campouts a year when the weather is nice and still do pinewood derby and crafts. The adults would have much less to organize (hopefully) as web den leaders. The troops would have PORs set to be automatic den chiefs.