Lisabob

"Most of the parents in my son's troop had six figure incomes and lived in houses that cost nearly a half million dollars." Well aren't they fortunate. Ain't the case where I live, GW.

Hey, Rick, no offense meant. I apologize if that came across wrong.

ASM59, I understand your quandary. Realistically speaking you cannot sacrifice your troop's summer camp experience for the potential good of the council. That's not serving your scouts well. What about a whole passel of letters from concerned parents and adults who were at camp this year, directed toward your SE? Maybe he needs to get buried under a pile of such letters in order to get the point. Encourage any adults (or scouts) who raise the issue to write such a letter. Maybe there are some people in your troop's adult leadership who are willing to get involved in the council's oversight of summer camp even though the boys in your troop will vote with their feet and go elsewhere next year. THat would be a real labor of love, of course, but I'm often amazed at what a few dedicated adults are willing to do, and what effect they can have. Good luck, and better camping next year.

Phew! Kudu, it is good to know you're all right. For a while there, with all your YMCA bashing, I thought maybe you'd lost your grip on Wood Badge. But now I see all's well as you are continuing to growl and snap at Wood Badge too. Kind of like a terrier. Glad to see you back on form, buddy.

Because the SM already signed the card and accepted the badges as complete, I think you close the book on these and follow John's advice. Another approach may be for the SM to have a conference with these boys explaining that although this badge "counts," future badges done in such a way will not be accepted. Not in a confrontational sort of way, just a reiteration of what the process is **supposed** to look like, along with an honest acknowledgment that both sides (boys and SM/troop adults) need to get back on track with the process. "Can a SM actually appoint a counselor?" Yes. The SM gives the name and contact info of an appropriate counselor (or a couple of counselors, maybe) to the boy. The boy then contacts the counselor provided by the SM. I know a lot of troops do not do it this way, but as you are now seeing, there are good reasons to do it. Among other things, sometimes some counselors are a poor personality match for certain types of boys. Sometimes a boy needs to be challenged a little by working with a different counselor. Sometimes a particular counselor really doesn't do a very good job and the SM might prefer that the boys in the troop do their work with a more competent individual. Case in point, I know one counselor for the Communications badge who pretty much signs off on all requirements for anybody with a pulse. He is super-willing to interpret requirements in such a way that the boys can do a sort of cameo appearance at a Court of Honor or Camp Fire, and he signs off on the requirement that they plan and conduct one of these. He's a favorite with a lot of scouts because of this, but the boys sure don't get much from working with him. Some SM's would prefer not to have their scouts work with a counselor like that. BY THE WAY: You should probably give a heads up to your district adv. people that you had this situation, and whatever steps you take to handle it. What you wouldn't want is for someone in the future to challenge the validity of these merit badges at a boy's Eagle board. (Probably wouldn't happen in many places, but I know that some places they do check to see who a boy's MB counselors were for Eagle required badges.) (This message has been edited by lisabob)

Just because the KID thinks it is cool that his dad gets to come along, doesn't mean the DAD will think it is cool. If that punishment were handed to my son, he might (or might not) be thrilled, at first. However, when he discovered that his parents were pretty disappointed that his behavior required us to babysit him on a future scout outing, he would likely be a lot less thrilled - we'd see that he got that message quite clearly. And if it were my husband accompanying him, it would be even less "thrilling" for him because my husband does not enjoy camping very much. In fact I think I'd make sure it was my husband who "got to" attend with him in such a situation. Talk to the dad (or mom). (S)He'll probably be happy to help you drive home the message you intended to send this kid. By the way I think it is really difficult for many boys to "punish" their patrol mates, particularly when everybody is young and close in age. They probably will need a lot of guidance and support from you to do this anything like effectively. This too will probably get better when you have a core group of older boys dealing with the new scouts' "little kid" behaviors.

Stosh I think you have to look at this a little differently. You see the program as primarily about development (leadership, skill, character, etc). Most of the boys probably appreciate that, but they probably also see the program as, first and foremost, about being with friends and doing cool stuff. So it is natural that some of them will follow their friends. And it is natural that their friends might ask them to do so. Sooner or later, you'll benefit from this too. A group of boys from some other troop will join you all together. One or two of them will be the catalysts, and the rest will follow to remain with their friends. Hard though it is, you shouldn't take this personally, nor should you view it as ethically questionable. Least of all should you suggest that those boys were somehow less for having changed troops. There are many roads to the same destination.

ASM59, roughly where are you located? Maybe folks can offer you some nearby alternatives to check out for next summer. John's advice (see them in operation now!) is really good.

OK, so is this guy a registered counselor for the district, for the badges in question? If he is, I'm sorry, but you lost that battle when the SM didn't direct the boys to a specific counselor. MBCs do not have to be registered with your troop. If he was approved at the district level, he's an approved counselor. Now, if you want more control over who the boys work with, then as John said, you need to have the SM play a more active role in making those assignments. If he isn't registered with the district/council as a counselor for the MB in question, then he's not a counselor at all, very simple. (On the other hand, I know some districts/councils have difficulty maintaining accurate lists. For example in my area, somehow I ended up being listed as registered for totally different badges on the district vs.council lists - and one of them is totally wrong. This has led to some annoyance and a few hiccups. If that's the type of situation this fellow faces - screwed up records at a higher level making it hard for even him to know what badges he's supposed to be counseling, let alone for boys and other leaders to know - then you all collectively need to voice your displeasure at the mess, make clear to your district advancement folks that you want it fixed NOW, and ask how you can help so everyone has accurate lists from which to work.)

That sounds awful, and inexcusable, even for a first week. I hope you had a chat with the program director and whoever supervises staff. (Those might be two separate people, depending on how the camp is set up). I've run summer camps. First-week problems happen. But not like what you are describing, unless the camp is severely under-staffed, the staff has not been trained and showed up like the day before camp opened, and/or the folks at the top are not listening to their staffers' concerns. I am willing to bet that things will not improve dramatically as the summer goes on. Probably several staffers will quit in disgust, leaving the remaining staff spread still more thinly across the camp. While it is likely that next year, someone else will be running the show, I think it is also likely that attendance will be down considerably, as a result of what you are describing. I know I wouldn't take my troop back to a camp like that.

I'm not convinced that the uniform actively drives away kids (although I know some who have a strong aversion to wearing it and I doubt it helps us recruit boys). I do think Beavah can be right that the way some adults approach the uniform actively drives some kids away. It isn't just the message; it is also the style in which the message is delivered. Harangues, blustering, and harping tend to backfire.

As a matter of clarification, is this person not on your Troop's website list, or is he/she not registered as a MBC with the district/council? In the former case, this is actually irrelevant, as it is supposed to be the district or council that approves MBC applications and maintains the list of current counselors for each badge. In the latter case, this does need to be dealt with and one way to do that is to alert the district advancement chair to the problem. More immediately, your SM can be clearer with the boys in your troop. Either the SM needs to give specific names for approved counselors to the boys, or the SM may need to reiterate that while all of the people on the website list are approved counselors (and therefore acceptable), anyone who is not on that list may not be an approved counselor. If a boy then wants to work with someone off-list, they had better clear it personally with the SM in advance (who then needs to verify the person's registered status as an MBC for that badge), or risk not actually earning the badge.

Well I'd say Beavah nailed it.

Thanks for the leads. I will share with the committee and see if we can't get away from the cotton Ts this year.

Brent, I just don't think that's it. I mentioned that somewhere else too, that while the boys almost universally give a thumbs up to the pants, it is funny that most troops who are more relaxed about the uniform only "require" the shirt! What I hear from my son and all of his friends, is that the shirt is the problem these days. Now my son's troop is a full uniform troop. And I do kind of feel, like I think Eamonn mentioned, that I paid plenty of money for that uniform so he's going to wear it! Regarding the troops you see at camp in uniform shirts and swim trunks (or non-reg shorts/pants) - I think what is happening there, is that these are "shirts only" units. Given the option, I'm willing to bet that most of those boys would NOT show up for dinner or flag ceremony in their uniform shirts at all. They might happily wear a troop T shirt or a camp T with their shorts (or trunks) and look a whole lot better, too. But, since they "have to," they wear the uniform shirts with whatever bottoms. Back when the pants were the ODL style, "shirts only" kinda made some sense. After all, most of the boys absolutely reviled those older pants and many refused to wear the "short shorts" that the only game in town for a while. Now that there are decent pants (though still expensive), it would really make more sense for units to go "pants only!" Then again you can't wear your rank patch on your pants. (Or can you?)

A lot of you mentioned in other threads that your troop T is a wicking fabric. That certainly makes sense to do. Up to this point my son's troop has gone with ordinary cotton Ts. One advantage is they're cheap ($7). We're about ready to order new ones though and it would be nice to get away from cotton. For those who are using a wicking T and who have gotten them screened with troop logo, etc., what are you paying for your shirts?

"I am wondering if they will wear their Class B's back to school, now that would be great! " Can't speak for others, but my son has frequently worn his troop T shirts to school. He wouldn't be caught dead wearing the official uniform shirt to school though.

You might want to review the history of the fifth amendment. There's a good reason why many defense lawyers do not want their clients on the stand at trial, and there's an even better reason why the Constitution protects people from having to testify on their own behalf. You're a teacher, you say - I hope you don't teach government!

"A lot of the complaints are about cost. Since the huge majority of parents buy the uniform for their sons, cost wouldn't be an issue for the boys. But if mom and dad don't want to shell out the bucks, maybe they convince junior the uniform is dorky, or just won't buy it for him. " Brent, what have you been smoking? Get real, man! It is not parents' opinions that shape what is, or is not, "cool" in the minds of many 12 year olds. If you doubt that, just ask the parents of most middle school boys about going clothes shopping for the kids.

I really cannot believe you're trying to justify this sort of behavior. Grow up.

That's really true about 1st year boys not being used to taking orders from other boys. Often parents do not understand this either, and so Junior goes home, complains about how some other kid "bossed me around" all weekend, and parent sympathizes, not knowing that that "other kid" was the patrol leader (or SPL) and that's roughly how things are supposed to work. Brent's approach can work too, but it depends a LOT on the boys in the patrol. It can also lead to situations where boys quit because they don't want to put up with that constant annoyance. And the ones who quit first aren't likely to be the ones causing the problems, but rather the genuinely nice kids who didn't join scouting in order to have frustrating experiences every weekend. So there's a real balance to be struck here, which is often a challenge. I think Brent's approach may work better in a troop where patrol method is well developed AND where the patrols are mixed-age. If you have a whole group of new guys and they don't have any fun because one member is being a stinker, you risk losing many of the new guys who see that "boy scouting isn't any fun."

Gee, thanks for letting us know about media spin. I really thought Fox News meant it when they said they were "fair and balanced." By the way, the flu may not be the only news story in town these days and it is true that it hasn't turned out to be as deadly as initially feared (so far, anyway) but it certainly has not gone away. You (and most of the country) have simply stopped paying attention. Not that I think the TV news outlets in general do a very good job of serious reporting, mind you.

You only have one of these fellows in your troop? Lucky you. I think it is human nature to be self-centered up to a certain point. Most of us grow past that, but not without considerable "help" from our elders (both youth and adult), sometimes in the form of a friendly kick in the rear. When I worked as a summer camp counselor, I recall being really shocked at how many kids had never made a bed, never set or cleared a table, never done dishes, etc. And it wasn't only the rich ones! It may be that this boy isn't used to being an equal member of a real group (where some adult isn't doing everything for him). Scouting might be his first experience with that. And he's only 11. I have a lot less patience when they're 16-17-18 and still behaving that way. Be patient, but be clear and firm and consistent with him. (And I do like the notion of your SPL having a little chat with him too.)

Just thought I'd mention this. I'm traveling this week. Stopped at a laundromat to do the wash and while I was there, in came some adults who were clearly scouters. We struck up a conversation - they were doing a mid-week laundry run of troop T shirts for their guys who are at a nearby scout camp. How did I know they were scouters? Not by the official scout shirt (nary a one in sight), nor by the official scout socks, troop neckers, or troop hats (also absent). Nope, it was the scout T shirts combined with the scout pants (mostly the switchback style) that gave them away. Even though they weren't in full uniform, it was clear who they were. We had a nice conversation about their troop and the camp they're attending. Sounds like they have a good program in spite of their obvious failure to properly use the uniform method (said tongue in cheek!). Sometimes I think we here on this forum get hung up on the details and miss the big picture.

My son's troop has patrol notebooks where sign offs are logged on a periodic basis. While sometimes I feel this is hand holding, on the other hand, when a kid loses his book, it is a really nice resource.