Lisabob

OGE: However, he IS an Eagle. Nothing that the aggravated SM can truly do about that fact at this point. Attempting to do something, using the sexuality question as fodder, looks like petty revenge (at best). We all know cases where a boy made Eagle who we aren't too happy about - and some of them grow into it, while others probably never do. Here's hoping this boy grows into it, whether he stays registered in scouting or not. As to the FB page - Nick, people should NOT be trolling for some kid's page. That's creepy. I agree with NJCubScouter that we need to safeguard this boy's privacy, too. He is a child, who may have written things on FB that he didn't intend to share with the whole wide world. Having his name and hometown "out there" via the news article makes further discussion of his personal life and what he might or might not have written or said in other venues, seriously problematic. Maybe he isn't interested in being quite so far "out" as this thread has now made him? From a parental perspective: Can you imagine how you would feel, if a bunch of people whom you have never met, sat around discussing the most personal aspects of *your* child's life, in permanent, public, written form?

Make sure all parents understand the rules for what is (or isn't) acceptable behavior at a camp out. You'd be amazed at what people suppose is just fine. Better to address with everybody before hand, than to have to deal with problems later. But don't single out this mom. You did not see what the previous interactions were, and you aren't sure of your source. So it could have been nothing at all. About single tents - I really prefer the privacy of tenting by myself. I have a two-man tent, but if 2 adults were to sleep in it, we'd be mighty cozy. So it is effectively MY tent. Maybe this fellow feels the same way. Unless he makes the connection for you, I would not suppose that there's a link between him purchasing his own tent, and him wanting to avoid this mom. Unmarried adults of opposite sexes wouldn't be tenting together anyway.

Enlist your CM and CC to push the training (at least YPT) issue. Don't get into a sweat about the mom's comment. It would certainly take a lot more than that to ban a parent from anything, in my book. That comment might seem strange to you, but it could easily have been innocent. Don't imagine trouble where there is none.

Yes and all those girls in pants. It must be confusing. ( ) Seriously - I've seen and met some of the "guys in skirts and leggings" crowd. I don't think I'd assume these people have sexual identity issues, but rather, that they tend to be somewhat outside mainstream teen culture. And that's not always bad. There's a lot about mainstream American teen culture that is pretty questionable.

Uh, is this going to become an Issues & Politics thread after all?

Maybe if RT resembled a good forum page, where somebody can pose a question and get feedback from a variety of viewpoints, then it would be more useful to a lot of folks. Gee. Kind of like our little forum here. And yes, we have ruts and old-timers who like to get stuck in them. But by and large, if a person posts a question here, they get some darn good input to consider most of the time. I really wish RT were more like this. Then again, in small-ish communities, I'm not sure it could be replicated. One nice thing here is that we can talk about issues or problems without too much worry that everybody will know exactly who we are talking about.

Let's back up a step. Does the boy clearly understand that he isn't supposed to sign his own book? Does he understand that "trustworthy" means some very concrete things? What would he do if someone turned to him and said "Gosh Bobby, you're a Tenderfoot, can you help with this snakebite 1st aid case over here? We need your know-how right away." A scoutmaster conference is in order. Depending on what he was thinking when he did this, it could be a discussion about reputation and how much harder it is to repair damaged trust, than to maintain trust in good standing. If he really didn't understand that he could sign his own book then the discussion would be a bit different. Either way, rather than rescinding the rank, I'd recommend the Scoutmaster put the onus on the scout to show that he has mastered the skills in question to really earn the rank, and that he is trustworthy. Second class shouldn't be forthcoming until these issues are rectified. Maybe a question to the boy like "How can you demonstrate that you have the skills you say you have?" Or even "what do you think is the right thing to do now?" If he needs some prompting, how about having him plan and lead some skill segments of upcoming troop meetings (have him go through his plans with somebody first before presenting).

It is easy to get caught up in that mode of thinking. But it isn't healthy. "So and so" is not your son. What works for "So and so" might be totally wrong for your son. Scouting is not like school where being at the top means having a higher GPA than somebody else. Scouting is unusual in that it can be tailored by each boy to his own needs (with some guidance) and it is not a competitive endeavor. Sometimes it helps to hear from others in the same position. I'm a mom and I have a late-teen son who has been a boy scout for 5 1/2 years now. I have watched as many of his peers started boy scouts with the stated goal of "getting Eagle by age ___." Know what? Most of them burned out and quit after 1-2 years. They'll be going into 11th grade in the fall and only one in his age group has earned Eagle so far. A couple remain in the troop, are totally burned out, but their moms won't let them quit. They're often very unpleasant to be around at scouting since they don't want to be there. The ones who are still involved and happy, are the ones who are doing things because THEY want to, and not because mom or dad are making them. This was not an easy lesson for me to learn. I'm an achiever sort of personality. I looked at the zillion opportunities to work toward things in scouting and got hooked (wish **I** had had this program as a teen!). Then my kid took 2 1/2 years to earn 1st class and another 18 months to earn Star. He'll probably earn Life sometime in the next year (after 18-24 months as a Star scout) but I'm not sure about that. He is ambivalent about Eagle. Advancement just is not what motivates him. Finally, I backed way, way, waaaayyyyy off. And you know what? In the last year he did (and loved) a week of NYLT, served this year as SPL, decided to attend Jambo (and do all the fundraising himself which is no small thing at $1800), and was inducted into OA, where he is looking forward to becoming more involved. If I had pushed advancement any harder in his middle school years, I'm sure he would have quit. Advancement was what I wanted, but not what he wanted. As it is, he has grown and learned so much just in this last year, even with the ups and downs he has dealt with in his troop. I'm glad he's still in the program. If he never makes Life (let alone Eagle) I will still be very proud of him and he will still have benefited greatly from his time in scouting. This has gotten rather long (sorry) but if it helps someone to see a different perspective from a "been there, done that, changed my mind" fellow traveler, then, good.

OK Stosh, So you have other concerns about this boy. Those are legitimate concerns. If he isn't showing up to meetings, he doesn't need to have a POR. And maybe he also doesn't want one (this is where you need to ASK him). While not the outcome we typically hope for, there are plenty of cases of "Eagle and out" and it has nothing to do with whether a boy is gay or not. About honesty - I understand what you are saying but there simply is no sexual orientation litmus test for rank. Thus, he was under no obligation to have revealed this to you, or anybody else, at any time, either before or after having earned the rank. Again, the policy about "avowed homosexuals" is an adult policy and not a youth policy.

Where exactly did Baden Powell say that his definition of the scout oath or law included being heterosexual? Honest question, because I missed it if he did.

OK Stosh, what's the deal with questioning his honesty? Is he honor-bound to tell you his orientation? Do you inquire of other boys? At your SM conferences do you routinely ask "now before you sit your BOR for this rank, are you sure you're straight?" (Of course you don't and I know that is a little hyperbolic, but you get the point, I'm sure.) Putting all the side issues...to the side... 1. I've never seen, nor heard of, a BSA policy that requires youth to resign or be removed on this basis. As you stated, the policy applies to adults. As such, I hope the boy understands that once he turns 18, his membership probably would not be continued unless BSA policy changes soon. 2. If you had no prior inkling about his sexual orientation then I can only suppose that it has not been an issue within the troop. Since it has not been a troop issue to this point, don't make it one now. (If he is using scout meetings and camp-outs to trumpet his orientation then that would be inappropriate - but the same would be true of a boy who ran around the campsite yelling "I'm straight! I'm straight!" or something of that nature.) 3. Continue to treat him like you treat all your other scouts. Again, if you don't know what his intentions are once he receives his Eagle rank, ASK him. From what you've posted elsewhere, I cannot imagine that you would allow that lack of clarity to exist with your other scouts. If you're now uncomfortable talking with him, make a friendly visit when his parents are there. 4. Based only on what you've written previously, I admire the type of troop you seem to have. You expect a lot of the boys in the troop, and it sounds like they live up to those expectations. Any boy who earned Eagle in this troop is most likely a fine individual. This boy is no exception. Honor him for what he has accomplished as a youth in scouting. As Beavah said, "don't do the drama."

We did something like this a few years ago and it worked out great. It is a challenge to get some of the info on insurance, but if you have somebody who works in the airport and knows the pilots, they can probably help you with most of that. The boys LOVED it.

And vice versa, Barry.

Nick, you may want to read the article that jblake linked to in a subsequent post.

Hmm, what can a man teach a boy to do, that I can't...hmmm... that old Garrison Keiler piece about writing one's name in the snow on a cold winter night (ice crystals!) comes to mind. Seriously, there are times when I think boys benefit from having good men around who can be mentors or role models. But that doesn't preclude good women from also being role models and mentors - and scout leaders. In fact, given the conversations that sometimes happen here (and in the real world), you would think one of the more important focal points would be on ensuring that each and every "Family Life" merit badge (Eagle-required, mind you) should be a man. After all, that badge includes a discussion of what it means to be a good father, which is certainly a part of "manhood" that women can never experience.

Let's just make some clarifications. 1. In all the posts here on this forum, there haven't been verifications that I have ever seen of anyone being "stripped" of their rank. 2. Conflation between sexual orientation and sexual predation are problematic. Someone who is gay is no more likely to assault another person, than someone who is not gay. 3. There is no clear statement in the news article in question that says this boy is gay. It is clear he attended a dance where there were gay people. Guilt by association is not exactly virtuous. 4. So much for "a scout is a friend to all." You'd kick him out because you think he might be gay, even though the policy about "avowed homosexuals" applies only to adult leaders, not youth, and even though you don't actually know the boy's sexual orientation, and even though (at age 16) the boy has presumably been with this troop for 5 or 6 years and shown sufficient character to have earned the rank of Eagle.

Might want to have a quiet and non-confrontational conversation with mom about this. It will help if you both have a common understanding of what the goals are for encouraging Jr. to stick with scouting. From other posts - I think your son is in middle school. Keep in mind, too, that middle school boys are a flighty lot who seem to have GREAT fear of being publicly identified as boy scouts. If the boy is getting a lot of conflicting pressures related to scouting at home, it might be more and more enticing for him to just drop scouts entirely, given the negative social points boys this age attach to scouting anyway. Good luck.

If our council or district only allowed those who showed up to some day, fair, kick-off, or special RT to get the calendar of events for the coming year, then I imagine there would be few surprises when hardly anybody attended the rest of the council or district events for that year. Don't hand out a calendar and people just won't come. Seems like a backward way to do things, to me! About RT attendance, I don't blame people for not going if there's not much value to the program. No matter what position you hold in scouting, one thing you probably didn't say when you volunteered was "oh goody, I'll have reason to attend a bunch of useless meetings!"

I have had parents contact me to sign up their sons, particularly for a couple of Eagle-required badges that I have counseled. My answer is always "have your son talk to me and I'll be happy to make arrangements with him." Some of them understand this better than others, and it would be more convenient to have me and the parent compare our calendars (because most of the time the kids are not aware of what's on the family calendar) but I just will NOT schedule meetings via the parent. You don't need to have a lot of tact - goodness knows, I've been accused of being tact-deficient! You just need to be clear about how and with whom you will set up merit badge sessions, and then stick to it.

Totally in agreement with Twocubdad. This sounds like a poorly thought-out idea on council's end, with real potential costs to the troop even if nothing unexpected happens.

Sorry, but... lousy joke... Maybe some things don't translate well to internet.

Yes. We have a boy in my son's current troop who did this. He repeated 3rd grade, but stayed with his den (rather than being a bear twice). So he was a boy scout in March of his 4th grade year. Worked out fine for him.

I am not sure if the question should be "how much do you trust your scouts," or if it should be "why is your district pressuring you into a fundraiser you aren't comfortable with and what obligations do you have to respond to this tactic?" In the latter: My answers would be "I can't imagine, and there is absolutely no obligation for units to participate." If pressure continues, tell the council/district folks to stick it in their ear. At a bare minimum, they need better advance planning and communication with unit leaders about any future fund raising efforts they conduct.

Are any of your jambo troops working on the various special awards that are offered? If so, do these awards require participation of every boy in the troop, or can they be earned just by the boys who are interested? I'm asking because my son's jambo troop leaders seem to have a new award that the boys are supposed to be working on, every month. My son is not especially interested, but also doesn't want to be the only guy to let the troop down. (Actually what he said was, the guys don't care much - it is the adults who want them to earn these). I know there's an emergency prep award and one about personal fitness. Any thoughts? How big a deal are these?

No, the situation is different. Why make the leader and scout 'repeat' Tigers? (noting that he only just started showing up to Tiger meetings in uniform, as a kindergartner, recently - according to the original poster) Well because the boy in that other thread evidently does not meet the requirements for being a Wolf, unless he is either 7 or in 2nd grade this fall. Being neither, he wouldn't be a Wolf. He doesn't have to repeat, of course. He could wait a year, and then join for the first time as a Wolf. In contrast: A boy who repeats 1st grade could be a tiger (1st grade) again, or a wolf, based on age. A boy who skipped 1st grade could become a Wolf (2nd grader) or a Tiger (age). That's a decision the pack leaders and parents should make together, with the best interest of the boy in mind. Not simply the most convenient interest of the parent. Nor should having "messed up" (not that I'm sure that was even the case in the other thread) once, open the doors for all comers to just do what they please. That could lead to some real havoc in the dens. There's flexibility, yes, but let's not get carried away. There are also boundaries in terms of age/grade requirements. But please, basement - this is hardly something to argue about.