Lisabob

Go for it. As long as the only requirement to be in the venture patrol (which is part of a troop) is that the boy is a registered troop member above a certain age, and as long as the boy meets those requirements, then there's no problem. Keep in mind that the venture patrol might have some mandatory shake downs or training trips that all participants might need to attend between now and the actual trip, and if so, the boy would have to be willing to do so for his own sake and the sake of the group. If, on the other hand, all of your venture patrol members need to be 1st class or higher or have camped x number of nights, or something like that, then the boy would also have to meet those requirements in order for this to be fair. But hey, a boy could get to 1st class pretty quickly if he wanted to do it badly enough, and "early next year" is far enough way to make it happen.

I appreciate the heads up on European Camp Staff. Right now we're just looking at the two OA high adv. options that he's interested in for next summer - Northern Tier and Sea Base. Anybody have experience with the OA programs at these two places?

Eagle92, they apparently didn't have Ocean Adv. in 2010 but it is back for 2011. Just fyi.

My son is pondering applying either for the OA Northern Tier Wilderness Voyage, or for the OA Ocean Adventure at Sea Base for next summer. He asked me to see what I could find out for him about either of these, so he can decide which on he wants to do. We don't know anybody local who has done either one. According to the info on the OA High Adventure website and applications, both sound really fun - and like a lot of very demanding physical work. Northern Tier is a 2 week program where the first week is trail building/maintenance and the second week is a canoe trek. Ocean Adventure is 10 days, again half trail maintenance and half sailing. Minimum age for both is 16. Questions: 1. Can a typical 16 or 17 year old handle the physical demands/challenges of the work part of these trips? The warnings about this on the application seem sort of daunting (esp. the Northern Tier one)- but it can't be *that* bad, or they wouldn't allow kids to sign up (right?). What could he expect, realistically? He's normal height/weight, not scrawny but not a football player, either. No past experience with lengthy High Adventure trips to judge from. 2. How do boys prepare for these, considering there are no practice treks or shake downs in advance? 3. Ocean Adv. application says they give first preference to youth who have already done either Northern Tier or Philmont. Is it probable that a boy who has done neither of these would get in to Ocean Adv, despite this? Any past experience on that? 4. They say they don't even start notifying you of whether you got in until March. Knowing how the BSA is with deadlines - do they actually tell you in March, or is it more like May/June? 5. If you don't get in, is it too late at that point to apply for the other programs (say, apply to Ocean Adv. first, but apply to NT if not accepted to Ocean Adv)? Or do the programs all fill right away? Thanks for the feedback!

Consider this a real bonus and compliment. She thought so much of the pack's program that she wants her two boys to continue in scouting, despite the difficulty she (evidently) faces in getting the boys to meetings and paying the full cost. Most parents would just drop out and then we'd be talking about how those parents just don't "get" the value of scouting. There are always exceptions that prove the rule, but people might want to keep in mind that most folks who are struggling aren't all that eager to ask for help. It takes a lot to swallow one's pride and do that. She might even be feeling sort of looked down upon and so uneasy, getting more involved with a group of adults who all know her social/economic business. Particularly since some seem quite ready to judge her for asking for help. And fund raising and volunteering are important and wonderful, but the "easy" opportunities to do these things tend to fall into the realm of middle and upper-middle class society, for the reasons Beavah, Calico, and others have spelled out. See if there's a leader who is friendly with her (maybe one of the boys' den leaders?) and maybe that leader can offer an occasional ride to meetings, etc. That leader could maybe also reach out and invite the mom personally to help out with an event or two. She might respond better to an individual, friendly invitation. Or, she might happen to mention that she can't because she's working, or whatever, which would at least provide you some insight into why the family isn't always at meetings and events.

Go to the PLC with these issues. They may also have some insights into the pros and cons of putting more boys in the same tent since, after all, it is them who will be sleeping there.

I can imagine two scenarios in which an adult like the one you are describing could operate. 1. In a troop that is more or less "boy led" a parent like this could be pushing things (like a gazillion MBs) for his son with occasional spill over effects into the rest of the troop (like inappropriately signing off the SM conference, announcing programs rather than asking the boys about them, etc). 2. In a troop where adults make all the real decisions, this dad might be one of many adults who routinely step on the boys' opportunities to do anything for themselves. If it is the first situation and neither your SM nor your Committee Chair intend to put their feet down, man that is annoying. But it can be dealt with (by those in no positions of authority) by ignoring a lot of this behavior that really only impacts his son (like the gazillion MBs every month), and making sure that the people in charge of BORs all know that this parent has already been told to stop signing off on his kid's SM Conferences, etc. Paying a lot of "never mind" to the guy is probably the best strategy there. If it is the second situation and there aren't clear signs of improvement, then yes, I would consider looking for another troop, even if not for right this minute. Just get to know other options in your area. I didn't pick up your son's age but I'm guessing he's on the younger end of things. My experience is that adult-led actually can work out ok for many 11-12-13 year olds and if he has friends, is happy, is getting a reasonably active outdoor program, and does not WANT to move at all, you may also need to bite down on your tongue and deal with it. (Maybe this means a self-demotion to "just a parent" status if you really can't suffer quietly - being the lone opposing committee member is just fruitless and raises stress levels to no good end, even when you're right about things). But somewhere in their mid-teens, adult-led begins to really chafe on many boys and they start to challenge things - or they quit. And the adults doing the leading tend not to take challenges from youth too well. So even if you stay put for now, having a friendly relationship with other troops and SMs in the area might help your son make a move later on if it becomes necessary. One good way to do this: go to your district round table on a regular basis. Don't say anything much about your son's troop - round table won't "fix" it anyway - just build a network of local scouters. And if it ends up that your son's troop does make strides toward boy-led and your son continues to thrive there, well it is still nice to have a network of scouter friends in the area. Edited to add: I'm not from the school of "merit badges for all" or "the more, the better" but still, I notice that several of the MBs on the list you shared really are very easy to complete. Reading, pet care, gardening, could all be done in relatively little time and by doing (mostly) things the boy might be doing in the summer anyway. Is it possible that in at least some cases, this parent (though over-involved, I agree) is simply helping his boy notice the overlap between what he's already doing, and what he can earn a badge for doing?(This message has been edited by lisabob)

My vote is: do the hike. Just because your district can't get it together to announce dates far enough in advance to allow unit leaders to plan around district events, doesn't mean you should drop your unit activity. Sooner or later (evidently, later) the training will be online and you can get it done then.

My son's jambo troop got enough tickets for about 1/2 of the boys to do MC. The decision was made that older boys would get priority with the reasoning that they would be ineligible to attend future jambos. I don't know if that was the right or wrong decision - but it is what was decided. So as one of those "older boys," my son did the MC. He liked it - a lot - and from his description, I kind of think it may have had more impact on older scouts than on the youngest fellows, anyway. It sounds like a lot of it was about decision making, ethics, group dynamics and mindfulness (for lack of a better word).

Of course there are always some who truly opt not to help themselves. I see that with fundraisers too, sometimes, and it annoys me as well when the folks involved certainly seem like they have the time or social network to spare. But that's not a good excuse for failing to think more carefully about the impact of fees/costs and style of fundraisers on those boys who *would* pitch in if they had the chance. On the other hand...when I see this... "I sent out a single email to 30 or 40 people I deal with at work and sold $900 worth with only a few keystrokes" It bugs me. Tell that to the mom or dad who works as a cashier at Wal Mart, or who used to work in the auto industry, or whose circle of friends, family, and "colleagues" really cannot afford to drop $20 on unneeded stuff (even tasty and popular stuff) because maybe they're working low-wage jobs or are out of work, too. Or, tell that to the parent whose work place has strict rules or an unwelcoming culture against this sort of soliciting (mine does). This is why I am a much bigger fan of fundraisers that involve doing, rather than simply selling to one's network or door-to-door in the neighborhood. But those fundraisers are also more difficult to come by, especially for a contingent troop, because many of the standard options (like cleaning the street after the town parade/festival) already are covered by existing troops. Failing that, fund raisers that target a more general public audience and split the profits among all who show up to work, are also better than those that target the immediate family social network. Car washes are an example. ETA: Besides, while I'm ok with parents who can and do fundraise for their kids, we shouldn't pretend that mom or dad selling $900 of merchandise with the click of an email is anything like a kid learning to pay his own way. Chances are good most kids in that scenario never really even know who bought what from mom or dad. This is not meant as a value judgment, Beaver, but simply an observation. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

It is true that a lot of folks are not especially "grateful" for their public schooling. I teach a lot of college students who, upon entering college, discover the long-term impact of the severe deficiencies in the education that their public schools offered to them. In many cases, these are students who appeared to have been successful within the confines of their public schools, only to learn that the benchmarks were so intolerably low that they are, none the less, totally unprepared to compete in the real world. On the other hand, I have a sizable chunk of students who do not fully understand what a good (free) public education they received, until they are seated next to kids from school districts that failed to deliver. And of course, home schooling and private schooling offer some different avenues. For most of us though, if you can read, write, do basic math, and function effectively in the larger world, you likely have some dedicated public school teachers in your past to thank for some part of it. Maybe we should consider what our society might look like if free (and effective) public schooling did not exist as a "right." Maybe employers (and co-workers) should consider what the cost of doing business would be, if you could not rely on the majority of people in the workforce and in the consumer base having had a solid, basic, education. In fact I also hear a lot of complaints about how employers feel the school system isn't adequately preparing people for the realities of today's work force - in other words, those darned employers feel "entitled" too. Many state constitutions identify access to free k-12 schooling as a right. A few even try in various ways to mandate that it be of good quality (novel concept). There's a good reason why states seem to believe that public schooling is a good idea, even though in these times it is ever-popular for state politicians to dump on the schools for every conceivable social and budget problem, and to gleefully cut to the bone (and beyond) the school budget, all while expecting more and more out of the schooling system.

You guys are getting two things mixed up here. 1. Freedom of speech and the 1st amendment 2. Courteous behavior and the tenets of the scout law and oath The 1st amendment DOES give people the right to engage in this sort of speech. Constitutionally speaking, every individual present had the right to cheer, boo, hiss, chant, sing, or what have you. (Or to listen quietly, or to say nothing at all) I have not seen anybody seriously contend otherwise in this discussion. The scout oath and law are something else. They do not carry the legal weight of the Constitution. They are simply guidelines for behavior. But, they are the guidelines we as scouters claim to try to live by, and to instill in our youth. In my view, the fact of the president - whoever he is - being booed by a large number of uniformed scouts at a scouting event goes against several points in these guidelines and makes us look hypocritical when we talk about teaching and modeling values and manners and good citizenship to our boys. It would be somewhat different if this were a partisan political event, but jambo is not supposed to be a political event, and scouts in uniform are supposed to keep at arms-length from politics so as not to implicate or trade on the image of scouting for political purposes. (I say this as a strong partisan and a teacher of political science - but when I'm in a scouting context and especially with my uniform on, I don't engage in politics.) Imagine this: The Institutional Head of your charter org. makes an unpopular decision and the scouts subsequently boo him or her at the next court of honor. Or a local politician (of whatever stripe) is invited to make a guest appearance at a scout meeting in connection with one of the citizenship badges or requirement #4 for 2nd class or #5 for 1st class, and some scouts boo him or her. Would you be mortified at your scouts' behavior? I hope so. While legal and constitutional, such behavior at a scouting event is, simply put, POOR FORM. I'm really shocked to see that so many here seem to have a different view on this.

Good point, Beaver. Our council bought new (dome) tents for jambo. While I don't know what the jambo budget did/did not cover, I suppose that the cost of the tents was included in the jambo fee. The boys also had the option of buying their tents for $50 at the end of jambo. I'm told that most of the tents were sold in this manner. Even though that meant a boy probably paid (part of the cost) for the tent two times - in the jambo fee and then the extra $50 - it still wasn't that bad a deal. Since they had 2 men in each tent, the tent cost included in the jambo fee probably only covered half the actual cost of each tent, perhaps $75. Add in the $50 to take the tent home at the end of jambo, and that's in the ballpark of what a boy would pay to buy the tent new, on his own. Of course, the tent budgeting is guesswork on my part since I've not seen the actual breakdown of jambo fees (and I'm just not going to lose sleep over it at this point, either).

I think that people who have been on the receiving end of charity learn more about how to give charity to others with grace and with respect for the common humanity of the giver and receiver, and about the positive (even life-changing) impact that charity can have on others. People who have no idea what it really is like to receive, seem more likely to be very arrogant givers, turning the whole process into something sordid. Of course it works the other way, too. There is such a thing as receiving charity with grace and dignity, as well. And those on the receiving end should also find some ways to "pay it forward" (to borrow on a '90s movie title).

Thanks for the input so far (would love to have more!). My son just discovered that OA folks can attend the various national high adventure programs for pennies (like, under $200 for 2 weeks!), which also caused his ears to perk up. Of course, it sounds like they work pretty hard in those two weeks, but he isn't immune to hard work and it makes access to those programs actually affordable. I'll share your responses with him so he has a better idea of what he can do, locally, to stay involved and serve others in scouting.

They should certainly pay PART of their own way. My son raised all $1650 for his jambo fee. And he appreciated the experience more, I think, than if I had just written a check for him. He also discovered that he had a lot more credibility in the eyes of some of the adults when he could look them in the eye and say "I am paying for this myself because I really want to be here." That said, he earned at least some of his money by doing extra chores around the house, and he discovered that family members are suckers for jambo fundraisers (no, we really did not need those boy scout trash bags). We did make sure he understood that people were buying them to help and support him, not just to get the (generally overpriced) merchandise. We also made sure he understood that all of the adults who make jambo possible, paid out of pocket for the privilege of attending or staffing. So - no - he didn't really and truly bear the full cost of his participation and he knows it.

Let me start by saying I'm not in OA, but my son recently went through his Ordeal. Also, in my area, OA has not been very active or visible in recent years and my son's troop hasn't had any active OA members for the entire time he's been involved with boy scouts (going on 6 years). There have been a couple of ordeal members who wear the flap, but nobody who has been active beyond that. Some years, they didn't even have elections. What I want to know is, what does "good" really look like in an OA lodge or chapter? What could a young man expect to actually DO, as part of OA, that might sustain his interest in scouting when the troop has become less of a draw? I get the notion of "cheerful service" but that's in the abstract. In the 10 years that I've been involved in scouting in my area, I've only seen OA do the following (and I hope there's more to it): 1) car parking fundraisers at sporting events (the money apparently goes back to the OA - not sure what they use it for) 2) call outs at the spring council camporee 3) work weekends (2 or 3 a year at one of the council camps) Not that any of these are bad, but if that's it, I don't see how it holds the interest of very many boys. I don't think we have a dance team or anything like that - or if so, I've never seen or heard of it, and I've been pretty active in local scouting beyond the confines of "my" unit(s). What else is there? By the way - my son went through his ordeal in June, and then to jambo in July/August. He mentioned that there were OA folks doing all sorts of things at jambo. That left a very positive impression of OA in his mind. Good job, to all who were there!

Our council cost was $1650. That covered attendance, bus transport to/from (roughly 10 hours each way), T-shirt, hat, patches/necker, new jambo tents for the contingent (sold to interested participants at cost, at the end). No matching luggage and no touring included. That choice was made based on local economic conditions (lousy in MI) and families' budgets. I'm ok with that. The boys used the same packs they'd use to go to regular scout camp, which they all owned already. And as for touring, the DC area isn't so far away that this might be a once-in-a-lifetime trip for our kids. From the sound of things, while they had a very positive jambo experience, most of them were ready to be home after 10 days anyway.

Eagle, for the 2010 Jambo a boy had to be at least 12 years old by July 1, 2010 (and couldn't turn 18 before August 3). They also had to be at least 1st class rank.

My son came back with a new fire, too. He was pretty impressed with whatever OA was doing, which is great to see. I hope that fire will burn long and brightly enough that he decides to do the merit badges he needs to earn Life rank, and to stay connected with scouting at any rate. ADCmohegan, does your son have any particular types of patches he especially likes (OA/JSPs/CSPs/etc.)?

That patch of the day stuff is just nonsense. Somebody at supply division (maybe several somebodies) is an idiot. My son came back with a gallon ziploc bag of patches he traded for at jambo. Most are JSPs or CSPs, and a few OA patches. Some are really cool, some are pretty colors, some are just a little goofy and some appear to be kinda boring. I'm not big into collecting but I'm pretty sure few, if any, of the patches in his new collection are worth a whole lot - except, he has a story to go with each of them and he's happy to have them. They have meaning and value to him regardless of what they're worth to others. I thought that was kind of the point of patch trading at jambo and am glad he had that experience. Now he also told me that on one occasion, another scout tried to steal a handful of patches off his mat (heh, my son is neither quiet nor slow - he got the patches back), and that one of the young fellows in his jambo troop nearly traded at a 20:1 ratio for some patch (somebody stopped the kid) and that kid did almost nothing else all day. After the 20:1 incident, son's jambo troop leaders wouldn't let the kids in his troop do any trading at all until after dinner each night. And I'm glad for that, too. Evidently, common sense was less in evidence in some other contingents.

I think the key is really in how well the jambo troop can prepare and learn to function together before leaving. In this, I was pleased with my son's jambo troop. They had at least 14 troop meetings (monthly in most cases), a couple of mandatory shakedown events, 6 fundraisers (including some as a group), and I lost track of the number of independent patrol meetings. As a result, the boys knew the others in their patrol reasonably well and had at least some sense of which adults had what sorts of personalities and what could be expected from them. My 16 year old has talked some about his jambo experience and I'm pretty sure I'll be hearing a good bit more over the coming weeks. He had a great time despite some challenging personal and physical situations. He has indicated that most of the boys who had problems during jambo were young (12-13), but that doesn't mean all of the young guys had problems. Still, I'm glad my son is a bit older. We both agree (son and I) that some of the stuff he was able to take in stride and deal with at age 16, would have been overwhelming for him and might have "ruined" it at age 12.

I count myself as both within the left wing of the Democratic party (and part of Obama's "base") and a strong supporter of scouting, though I look forward to a time when some of the silly, superficial, policies of the BSA will change. There are plenty of us out there, perdidochas. My son is at jambo this week. I imagine he'll be bummed that the president won't be there in the flesh. It is one thing he had mentioned he was looking forward to, before he left. Watching a video is just not the same.

Boomer, your binder idea isn't a bad one and probably, the kids do something similar now on a very informal level. Just be careful you don't end up scaring kids away - maybe let the informal mechanisms work on their own, as is already probably happening. Case in point: I read the comments posted here sometimes about the citizenship badges and I know where people are coming from, I guess. On the other hand, my son has 2 of the 3 citizenship badges and he LOVED doing them (he just likes to talk about this stuff, always has). If he had been required to read a file of other scouts' feedback on those, he probably would have been discouraged from doing them. Similarly, he has a very negative view of the chemistry badge, largely due to the way it was (not) taught when he did it at a group event. His "report" (if he wrote one) on that merit badge would almost certainly drive other scouts away from doing it, perhaps unfairly so.

Some troops around here do that. It is sort of "in house" rather than "official" because they don't actually have the authority to do it. Most of the time, it applies only to Eagle-Required badges, except at some summer camp situations as John describes. It is usually an attempt to avoid having 12 year old Eagle scouts, and people who do it claim that the boys don't have the maturity yet to truly benefit from the badges in question, at earlier ages. I don't know if that's true - I've been a counselor for 2 of the citizenship badges and I think some 11-12 year olds get it just fine, although the nature of the conversation is different with a 16-17 year old. The ones who really aren't mature enough tend to progress very slowly on the badge (at least, they did with me as their counselor). For what it's worth, I also think Cit. in Community is the toughest of the three citizenships for a young person to grasp. Lots of little detail in that badge, and the boys are probably least exposed to local gov't and local politics, even though it is in their own community. They can all at least tell you something factual about Congress and they've probably heard a few global news stories, even if they don't understand them. Ask them how their mayor is elected (or who the mayor is) and expect blank stares in return. But if it is really about maturity (and not just putting in road blocks to Eagle) then maybe there ought to be MORE age limits imposed. You seldom hear about troops trying to age-limit, say, Nuclear Science, or Motor Boating, or Law. Just saying.